Why Isn't HAL Adding New Ships to Their Fleet

[foodsvcmgr]

Here are some photos from my visit to NA in Port Everglades in April 1973, just a few months before her final voyage in December of that year.

[cruisemom42]

7 minutes ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Here are some photos from my visit to NA in Port Everglades in April 1973, just a few months before her final voyage in December of that year.

 

Great pics!  Thanks for sharing.

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

At some point doesn't this model have to "break"?  If nothing else, ports are becoming more active about the crowds these huge ships bring to their doorstep.

 

I certainly believe the current model is not sustainable and the mega ships will become more destination resorts, calling at possibly 1 port per week, which could be the cruise line's private island.

 

Intensive ports of call cruises would be limited to smaller ships.

9 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

It's interesting to hear how things change over time. I remember going aboard Holland America's Nieuw Amsterdam II in 1972 with my grandmother for a "look-see" when she was docked in Port Everglades. Back then, travel agents were happy to arrange for passengers to go aboard visiting ships to get a feel for them.

 

I remember those days well, as in addition to TA's and their guests, we also had numerous pax family and guests aboard. Trying to get everyone ashore before departure was a challenge.

9 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Nieuw Amsterdam was at that time about 35 years old (built in 1937) and I was awestruck by the impressive decor, so much so that I still remember it. I believe she operated another two years, making her 37 when she left HAL's fleet. Were standards regarding ships' steel and hull different then, or was the money just spent on updating her all along?

 

 

This wasn't unusual, as many shipping lines kept the ships longer. When I did the 25 yr hull survey on SS Uganda, each hull plate was at least 3/4" thick, which is much thicker than modern ships. However, in the 1950's they didn't have the same quality of steel, which is why it was thicker. Drydocking intervals were also annual and with P&O lasted about 3 weeks, so more money was spent of maintenance.

[terrydtx]

10 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Even doing this makes a big difference in passengers' experience onboard. When Celebrity began launching their new "Edge" class ships, they had a big re-do of all of their existing ships (they called it "Revolutionizing" them or something similar) to keep a certain consistency of theme and decor among all of their ships. They updated the decor and added some of the same spaces (restaurants, lounges, etc.) that were on the new ships. I assume it helps with branding but it also kept their older ships looking fresh.

 

I wish HAL would do this with their existing fleet -- it would really help if they did a "Pinnacle make-over".

Celebrity's Revolutionizing program was a great idea and marketing ploy until Covid hit and they used all the money put aside for the program to stay afloat. 3 ships in the fleet got the full Revolutionizing and 1 only got a partial. Post Covid the Revolutionizing has been canceled for the remaining non Edge class ships. Post Covid they added 3 more E Class ships and have one more under construction for 2025 delivery. I suspect their 2000 era M class ships will be sold off in the next few years as they are getting dated and badly need refurbishment. 

 

The E Class ships are the competitor to HAL Pinnacle Class ships in size and capacity. However Celebrity introduced IMO the horrible ill conceived

Infinite View balconies which are nothing more than a sunroom with a window that opens. About 50% of Celebrity loyalists love then and 50% hate them. But the truth is by 2025 Celebrity will have 5 newer modern Edge Class ship to HAL's 3 Pinnacle class ships. We have been on 3 of the E Class ships and cruised on our first HAL Pinnacle, Koningsdam last month and IMO I would sail on a Pinnacle over the E Class ships. If HAL wants to stay competitive and continue to be a player in the cruise industry, they need to build more Pinnacle class or similar ships.

Edited December 17, 2023 by terrydtx

[Heidi13]

10 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The only thing that makes me apprehensive with older ships is the plumbing. The only times I've experienced plumbing back ups have been on older ships. Could be a coincidence.

 

Perhaps @Heidi13 wouldn't mind commenting on old build vs new build plumbing systems? I think it's still on topic since this has to do with HAL sailing older ships.

 

The piping systems on the older ships was definitely a driver for scrapping a ship, as the sanitary and fire main systems were all salt water. Plumbing issues was one of the reasons one of my favourite ships, SS Oriana was sold at only 27 yrs. In addition to corrosion, the pipes also got blocked on the inside. The modern vacuum systems use small diameter stainless pipes, at least that is what we used in the shipyard when I managed a system re-piping on one of our ships. They do not use any salt water, only small amounts of fresh water.

 

Hope this helps. For a more detailed explanation, you can try the Chief.

[crystalspin]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

The piping systems on the older ships was definitely a driver for scrapping a ship, as the sanitary and fire main systems were all salt water.

OMG! As a former lab chemist, I shudder.

[Haljo1935]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

I certainly believe the current model is not sustainable and the mega ships will become more destination resorts, calling at possibly 1 port per week, which could be the cruise line's private island.

 

Intensive ports of call cruises would be limited to smaller ships...

The ship is not my destination - it is mostly my mode of transportation,, so 1 port/week is not enticing to me.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

Celebrity's Revolutionizing program was a great idea and marketing ploy until Covid hit and they used all the money put aside for the program to stay afloat. 3 ships in the fleet got the full Revolutionizing and 1 only got a partial. Post Covid the Revolutionizing has been canceled for the remaining non Edge class ships. Post Covid they added 3 more E Class ships and have one more under construction for 2025 delivery. I suspect their 2000 era M class ships will be sold off in the next few years as they are getting dated and badly need refurbishment. 

 

Since Covid I've sailed on 1 Celebrity M-class ship that received the "Revolution" upgrade (Millennium) and one that didn't (Constellation) and I thoroughly enjoyed both of them. Not everyone thinks that every ship needs to be new and shiny. All things being equal, I'd generally choose to sail on a smaller ship than a newer ship. Now if it is a smaller, "refreshed" ship, all the better.

 

What I somewhat dislike about HAL's older ships isn't their age or size but their generally darker interiors. The M-class ships are lighter and brighter than, say, HAL's Vista class ships.

 

 

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

 

By 2025 Celebrity will have 5 newer modern Edge Class ship to HAL's 3 Pinnacle class ships. We have been on 3 of the E Class ships and cruised on our first HAL Pinnacle, Koningsdam last month and IMO I would sail on a Pinnacle over the E Class ships. If HAL wants to stay competitive and continue to be a player in the cruise industry, they need to build more Pinnacle class or similar ships.

 

Why does HAL need more ships to be competitive? HAL's current plan is to focus on longer voyages. They don't necessarily need to have as many ships as the lines that mostly set sail every 5 to 7 days with a new set of passengers. If they can fill those ships with passengers on longer cruises who are not paying bargain-basement prices to be onboard, they might just have a winning model. (And I say that with full realization that it's a BIG "if".....)

 

[cruisemom42]

7 hours ago, kazu said:

N Amsterdam was my first HAL ship and I fell in love. 😊 

 

She looked like such an amazing ship. My grandparents sailed on her but I was a bit too young. Where did you go?

[ontheweb]

15 hours ago, kazu said:

 

N Amsterdam was my first HAL ship and I fell in love. 😊 

 

Just like the Prinsendam was much older (and still operating) than the current ships in the fleet, I believe the standards for building those ships was higher.  They still needed updates - no question but I had an interesting conversation with the staff captain on the Prinsendam on the Lido and he pointed me to several things and explained that none of the new ships have this type of construction.

 

Remember how our old appliances would last for 25-30 years?  The age of existing is usually 10 if you are lucky.  Things were built to last and endure back then.  

Yes, it is unfortunate, but we now live in a time of planned obsolescence. 

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, Haljo1935 said:

The ship is not my destination - it is mostly my mode of transportation,, so 1 port/week is not enticing to me.

Agree, we also sail for ports, and definitely not for the "monstrosities of the seas".

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

14 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

The industry needs to organize in order to adapt. Observe what MSC is doing.

 

They have 200k ton ships. You have low prices, lots of entertainment and the wow factor, if you don't mind the crowds. They have a new brand 'Explorer' running mid-size luxury cruises. The luxury market is booming and very profitable if your product is popular.

 

Eventually, they can run a lower price version of the mid-size ships if the growth opportunity is there.

 

CCL needs to reorganize its brands. Carnival for pax interested in cheap and cheerful. Princess for pax wanting something better. HAL for pax interested in destinations and service quality; mid-size ships.

 

There will be something for everyone. But, don't expect HAL to deliver the experience you like at Carnival prices.

 

I agree with you ..

[kazu]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

She looked like such an amazing ship. My grandparents sailed on her but I was a bit too young. Where did you go?

 

Once we ‘braved’ sailing her the first time, we were hooked and sailed on her a lot so too many ports to list.  Baltics, Black Sea, Celtic Explorer, Bordeaux (docked right down town) to name a very few.  Even a transatlantic was not a standard one with different stops.  There were a number of times we were celebrated as we were the first ship to visit the port or the first ship to try their small dock.  there was more than one port where our private tour was recorded by a tv crew as it was the first tour for cruise passengers ever in that port.  DD DH was even interviewed by a TV reporter when we were in Spanish Morocco (Ceuta).  Unlike the reactions we hear about now by ports resenting being overrun by cruise ships, the Prinsendam and her passengers were warmly welcomed.

 

Holland America lost a lot of ports when it sold the Prinsendam.  She truly went to ports that the other ships could not go to.

[Hlitner]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Since Covid I've sailed on 1 Celebrity M-class ship that received the "Revolution" upgrade (Millennium) and one that didn't (Constellation) and I thoroughly enjoyed both of them. Not everyone thinks that every ship needs to be new and shiny. All things being equal, I'd generally choose to sail on a smaller ship than a newer ship. Now if it is a smaller, "refreshed" ship, all the better.

 

What I somewhat dislike about HAL's older ships isn't their age or size but their generally darker interiors. The M-class ships are lighter and brighter than, say, HAL's Vista class ships.

 

 

 

Why does HAL need more ships to be competitive? HAL's current plan is to focus on longer voyages. They don't necessarily need to have as many ships as the lines that mostly set sail every 5 to 7 days with a new set of passengers. If they can fill those ships with passengers on longer cruises who are not paying bargain-basement prices to be onboard, they might just have a winning model. (And I say that with full realization that it's a BIG "if".....)

 

I like that HAL is making an effort to focus on longer voyage (with decent itineraries).  However, as one who often takes longer voyages, when we are going to be on a ship for weeks (or even months) we also become choosy as to the quality of that product, the entertainment, cuisine, etc.  Having just come off 14 days on the large Sky Princess (operating near its 3660 capacity) we thought the overall quality was light years ahead of what we experienced on our recent Westerdam cruise.  As a simple example, we had 4 different Production shows which has a cast of 14 backed-up by the ship's 7 person band!  These productions all had excellent staging and the singers/dancers were talented and delivered to the always full theater.  Even the decent Guest Entertainers only performed in the main theater for one night (none of the two shows that is the norm for HAL Guest Entertainers).  There were no dark nights, no slide shows or retread movies in the main theater (at night).  

 

In two weeks we never were told, "we are out of that,"   "did not have a single accounting error," and our drink packages included things like French Champagne, Remy Martin XO, top shelf McCallen, etc.  The wines covered by their Premium Package included offerings from vineyards such as Silverrado (you will not see this on HAL).  On the Westy, even with the package we had add-ons to relatively simple drinks like a Cosmo.  There was no Baileys (just a lower cost Baileys wannabe), the "champagne" was anything but, and most of the wines by the glass were barely drinkable (there were some good offerings if one bought bottles).

 

Why do I post this comparison?  Because, while we would certainly want to come back to HAL for longer cruisers (we are 5* and have long enjoyed the product) there will need to be some improvements before DW would even consider another HAL cruise. A few  Cut-backs are annoying, but often tolerable.  But too many cut-backs (combined with nickel and diming) are not something we are willing to tolerate.

 

This thread asks the question of why no more new HAL ships?  Other Carnival companies continue to add new ships (Princess even has a new class of ship debuting next year).  But HAL has reached a point where they fill too many berths with low cost gambler specials, and are forced to offer deals like $99 deposits.  Kind of sounds like a desperate used car dealer offering a free toaster if you come into their dealership.  Many HAL competitors are bursting at the seams with passengers (we just experienced that on Sky Princess) that are actually paying a premium.  

 

By the way, for HAL fans we should mention that Rudi Sodamin is now adding his talents to Princess.  Their newer ships have "The Catch by Rudi" that had some of the best food we have ever experienced on any mass market line (even rivaled what we have had on premium lines).  The menu in their "Crown Grill" (the Princess version of the Pinnacle Grill) blows away the PG menu (although we thought the quality of cuisine was comparable).  

 

As to DW, she comes off the Sky Princess with good vibes (and had me book a future cruise credit on that line).  Was everything perfect?  No way.  But the overall experience was far superior to our 6 weeks on the Westy.

 

Hank

[johnnyswitzerland]

11 hours ago, foodsvcmgr said:

 

Off topic but…  Ship's registry: Curaçao?

[Hlitner]

4 minutes ago, johnnyswitzerland said:

 

Off topic but…  Ship's registry: Curaçao?

I believe that ship is registered with the Netherlands.

[Alphen]

6 minutes ago, johnnyswitzerland said:

 

Off topic but…  Ship's registry: Curaçao?

For tax purposes, several HAL ships have been registered to Willemstad/Curacao and St. Maarten for a short period, I think it was the seventies. If you are interested, there are some older discussions about the alternative flagging of Dam ships somewhere on the HAL board.

[cruisemom42]

29 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I like that HAL is making an effort to focus on longer voyage (with decent itineraries).  However, as one who often takes longer voyages, when we are going to be on a ship for weeks (or even months) we also become choosy as to the quality of that product, the entertainment, cuisine, etc.  Having just come off 14 days on the large Sky Princess (operating near its 3660 capacity) we thought the overall quality was light years ahead of what we experienced on our recent Westerdam cruise.  As a simple example, we had 4 different Production shows which has a cast of 14 backed-up by the ship's 7 person band!  These productions all had excellent staging and the singers/dancers were talented and delivered to the always full theater.  Even the decent Guest Entertainers only performed in the main theater for one night (none of the two shows that is the norm for HAL Guest Entertainers).  There were no dark nights, no slide shows or retread movies in the main theater (at night).  

 

In two weeks we never were told, "we are out of that,"   "did not have a single accounting error," and our drink packages included things like French Champagne, Remy Martin XO, top shelf McCallen, etc.  The wines covered by their Premium Package included offerings from vineyards such as Silverrado (you will not see this on HAL).  On the Westy, even with the package we had add-ons to relatively simple drinks like a Cosmo.  There was no Baileys (just a lower cost Baileys wannabe), the "champagne" was anything but, and most of the wines by the glass were barely drinkable (there were some good offerings if one bought bottles).

 

Why do I post this comparison?  Because, while we would certainly want to come back to HAL for longer cruisers (we are 5* and have long enjoyed the product) there will need to be some improvements before DW would even consider another HAL cruise. A few  Cut-backs are annoying, but often tolerable.  But too many cut-backs (combined with nickel and diming) are not something we are willing to tolerate.

 

This thread asks the question of why no more new HAL ships?  Other Carnival companies continue to add new ships (Princess even has a new class of ship debuting next year).  But HAL has reached a point where they fill too many berths with low cost gambler specials, and are forced to offer deals like $99 deposits.  Kind of sounds like a desperate used car dealer offering a free toaster if you come into their dealership.  Many HAL competitors are bursting at the seams with passengers (we just experienced that on Sky Princess) that are actually paying a premium.  

 

By the way, for HAL fans we should mention that Rudi Sodamin is now adding his talents to Princess.  Their newer ships have "The Catch by Rudi" that had some of the best food we have ever experienced on any mass market line (even rivaled what we have had on premium lines).  The menu in their "Crown Grill" (the Princess version of the Pinnacle Grill) blows away the PG menu (although we thought the quality of cuisine was comparable).  

 

As to DW, she comes off the Sky Princess with good vibes (and had me book a future cruise credit on that line).  Was everything perfect?  No way.  But the overall experience was far superior to our 6 weeks on the Westy.

 

Hank

 

While I agree with so much of what you say, a ship with 3600 passengers would be a hard "no" for me, no matter how wonderful. (And I have not been overwhelmed by Princess in recent years....)

[foodsvcmgr]

In her last few years the old NA was reflagged to Curacao in order to replace some of the Dutch hotel staff with Indonesians for the first time.

In those days Dutch flag required Dutch crew, obviously since changed.

Another reason for the demise of old tonnage particularly in the late 60’s, early 70’s was inability to refit these ships to the latest SOLAS fire safety standards due to extensive wood paneling, open stairwells, etc.

Also the oil embargo and fuel crisis doomed many of the thirsty steamships.

Some liners were sent to the breakers less than 20 years old, “Northern Star” was 13!

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

It's good that Holland is watching what they spend money on.

[Toofarfromthesea]

15 hours ago, TRLD said:

Keep in mind that CCL is pretty clear on how it is positioning HAL.  It is focused on longer, unique itineraries, on the smallest average size ships of any of the US focused main stream lines.  Even its most recent builds are less that 3000.  Celebrity has the next smallest average ship size of the main stream lines, but has far shorter average cruise lengths and visits far few unique destinations.

 

As far as age goes I did a comparison of percentage of fleet at various ages between HAL and Princess (existing fleets sailing today.

 

                                  HAL                                 Princess

Less than 10             35%                                 47%

10 to 20                     44%                                 43%

Over 20                     21%                                 10%

 

It changes a bit when one look at 2025 when the two Princess new builds are in the fleet.

At that time Princess will look like (if they do not retire any of their older ships

Princess in 2025 with new builds.

 

Less than 10 years     42%

10-20 years                30%

Over 20                      28%

 

Both lines have had periods as long as 5 years without new builds.  The challenge for HAL is to maintain its under 3000 ship size with its higher per passenger construction and operation costs, while the other mainstream lines are going with larger more cost efficient ships.

 

I would not be surprise if CCL were to pull in a couple of ships similar in size to the HAL fleet from one of its other brands.  Of all of the CCL owned lines the one that has increased its overall passenger capacity the most in the last few years is Aida with the addition of 3 over 5000 capacity ships.  Prior to the addition of those ships most of their ships were less that 3000.  If CCL wanted to they could take one or more ships from Aida, remodel them, and move them to HAL and still have more passenger capacity with AIDA than 5 years ago.  Aida currently has 5 ships in the 2100 to 2700 size that are less than 14 years old.  These ships would have another 10 years service life as a HAL ship if they chose to do so.  That would enable CCL to continue to add large ships to Aida, while keeping HALs smaller average ship size in its fleet while delaying new builds for a couple of more years.

 

Excellent first post.  Welcome.

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Agree, we also sail for ports, and definitely not for the "monstrosities of the seas".

 

And I'm just the opposite.  For me it's all about the ship, and I don't care much about the ports.  My first cruise was on Celebrity in the Carib. And I never got off the ship.  On my upcoming Hawaii cruise I plan to get off once, to see Pearl Harbor.  It's not a one-size-fits-all world and it is nice that there are cruises available that suit each of our tastes.

[ontheweb]

8 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And I'm just the opposite.  For me it's all about the ship, and I don't care much about the ports.  My first cruise was on Celebrity in the Carib. And I never got off the ship.  On my upcoming Hawaii cruise I plan to get off once, to see Pearl Harbor.  It's not a one-size-fits-all world and it is nice that there are cruises available that suit each of our tastes.

Almost half of our cruises have been in Europe, ports there are important.

 

But I do agree with you that it is not a one size fits all world and it is a good thing that there are a lor of different cruise options.

[BermudaBound2014]

15 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The piping systems on the older ships was definitely a driver for scrapping a ship, as the sanitary and fire main systems were all salt water. Plumbing issues was one of the reasons one of my favourite ships, SS Oriana was sold at only 27 yrs. In addition to corrosion, the pipes also got blocked on the inside. The modern vacuum systems use small diameter stainless pipes, at least that is what we used in the shipyard when I managed a system re-piping on one of our ships. They do not use any salt water, only small amounts of fresh water.

 

Hope this helps. For a more detailed explanation, you can try the Chief.

 

Thank you @Heidi13

 

@chengkp75 would you mind commenting? Is there a big difference between the plumbing systems between older ships and newer ones?

 

Are certain designed ships more prone to plumbing issues? For example, we experienced some minor issues on sister ships Radiance and Serenade of the seas. Wondering if that's in the design of that particular ship (those are also getting a bit aged).  I also experienced much more significant plumbing issues on HAL's Amsterdam in the early 2000's. 

 

Based on my limited experience, the older the ship the more likely it is to have plumbing issues. Any truth to that? Are there advances in technology that make the newer systems more reliable?

[TRLD]

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 

 

This thread asks the question of why no more new HAL ships?  Other Carnival companies continue to add new ships (Princess even has a new class of ship debuting next year).  But HAL has reached a point where they fill too many berths with low cost gambler specials, and are forced to offer deals like $99 deposits.  Kind of sounds like a desperate used car dealer offering a free toaster if you come into their dealership.  Many HAL competitors are bursting at the seams with passengers (we just experienced that on Sky Princess) that are actually paying a premium.  

 

 

Hank

The ships that CCL lines are building are those that were scheduled  and orders placed prior to Covid.  They have not placed any new orders yet. 

 

There were no new orders placed for HAL prior to Covid because they already had a Pinnacle ship on order that finished in 2021, the last of the 3 Pinnacle class ship.  Not unusual for HAL to have a couple of years between one ship class and the next. After all it was 5 years between the last Signature and the first Pinnacle.  In HALS case the Pinnacle ships were 2 to 3 times the size of the ships they replaced.  As such the line gained substantial capacity even with the ship count remaining the same.

 

If not for Covid one would have expected a new ship order to have been placed in 2021 or 2022 probably starting a new class.  As with the other lines no new orders have been placed, only previously ordered ships such as the Princess Sun class getting completed.

 

I expect all of the lines will have some ships retained beyond the normal CCL owned lines cutoff of 24-25 years where they have usually gotten rid of ships.  While they may be more costly to operate they can still be profitable in the short term while they are reducing debt and not placing any new orders. Keeping overall fleet capacity during this period until they start placing new orders for all lines.

 

As far as profitability HAL does discount in very competitive markets in Alaska and the Caribbean compared to some of their competition, but their per day prices do go up on longer more unique cruises.  Princess also does substantial discounting with casino fares.

Edited December 18, 2023 by TRLD