Open class experience

Years ago, before Celebrity, I cruised on ships that had class distinctions with different dining rooms depending on your type of cabin. Menus and service varied. Deck areas and chairs were reserved for you. Your name was posted on a deck chair. That was the only chair on the deck that you could use. Less expensive cabins got chairs in poor locations near smoke stacks and in areas without shade. Often there were hundreds of empty chairs that I could not use. Deck stewards told you to leave if you dared to sit on a different chair. Some venues were off limits to people in less expensive cabins. Formal night was every night. White tie for the more expensive cabins and black tie for the others. It was elegant and expensive. The more you spent, the more areas of the ship were open to you. For people who spent less, there were many closed areas.There was no loyalty program. There weren't many cruise lines competing for customers. Cruising was an experience that cost a lot of money. In the 80s, a lot of new cruise lines entered the cruising market. With more ships sailing, cruise fares became more affordable. When Royal Caribbean started sailing with no class restrictions, I jumped at the opportunity to sail. I loved being able to sit down anywhere on a deck chair. The entire ship was open. Everyone enjoyed the same food, shows, towels, etc. If you chose to buy a more expensive cabin, you had more space or a more desirable location. Evening dress code was more relaxed. Only a few nights were formal. The new type of one class cruising attracted a lot of people. Soon, more new cruise lines were sailing with one class including Celebrity. Many of the older cruise lines with class distinctions were out of business. Now, after more than 35 years of no class distinctions, many areas of the ship are now restricted. I cannot go to Michael's Club unless I am Zenith or sail in a suite. I cannot eat in Blu unless I sail in Aqua Class. Seats in the main show room are reserved on formal nights. The new suite dining room will also be another restricted area. When will I be restricted to my one deck chair? Each time I sail on Celebrity, I am reminded of those old cruise lines. There seems to be more class distinctions. I love the open ship concept with unreserved deck chairs. Most of the class system cruise lines are out of business. Bring back the open class experience.

I agree with you however it is all about money. Making these special places that are only available to a select few allows the line to charge that few lots of money which they are happy to shell out because it allows them to feel special. I look at cruising like real-estate. Would you rather have the best room on a midrange ship or the worst room on a luxury ship?

I think this isn't even close to the way it used to be. I personally don't mind different restaurants for different room types and the Michael's Club doesn't seem to be such a big deal to me either as that location has been plagued by a rotating door of different venues throughout the years on M Class ships. More power to them if they turn it into something useful.

I don't see the current direction of Celebrity leading towards reserved pool chairs for each guest based on class of room or any other major ship areas being restricted as such.

The one thing I think might be a decent idea though is to make use of these new dining venues when suite passengers or Aqua for Blu don't dine in their respective area. If for example a suite guest opts to have dinner in their suite or a specialty restaurant, I think it would be neat of Celebrity to open that space to guests otherwise unable to eat in that area. Maybe you put your name on waiting list and be contacted if a table opens up.

Hotels are no different - most now seem to offer a "club" level - this started out being marketed as a business floor but the concept got bigger. Some hotels particularly in the far east, now have whole wings and even buildings with separate pools and restaurants just for guests prepared to pay for the club experience, whatever that means.

Aircraft used to have two classes - First Class and Economy - then came First, Business and Economy - then First, Business, Premium Economy and Economy - and now there's even more - buy a seat with extra leg room, seat 1A and 1K reserved for the best customers and so on.

More and more opportunities for you to buy that bit of one up manship.

I noticed a thread here from Elite plus members wanting there to be another level between them and Zenith.... yet more opportunities for closed off and reserved facilities.

Redtravel,

Thanks for the history of cruising which has changed through the years.

I too think all common areas should be opened to all guests. I do not mind a fee to eat in a specialty dining, but having restricted dining and other venues is moving into a tiered system of cruising for guests based on your stateroom.

Disclosure: I had salied in AQ, loved the shower but the Blu dining room food was underwhelming.

But it is open to everyone...all you have to do is book a suite!

The loss of Michael's club to the masses is really a non-loss. It was always underutilized but for a few anomaiies like Perry Grant doing his show in there. But generally, it was a ghost town, much like it is today still, though the :"ghost town" now drives revenue by being a retreat or this paying higher fares for Suites. Anything that was available in Michaels continues to be available at other venues on the ship.

BLU, all it did was take a few "unallocated" seats out of the MDR and "allocate" them to specific guests, there are still more than enough seats in MDR for all the rest of those without benefit of BLU to sit in, nothing lost there either. Suite Dining room will be much like BLU, just moving seats from one area within the MDR space to another area, no one is being told they can't eat in the MDR space, nor is it physically possible for anyone to sit on both MDR and BLU eats, nor SDR and MDR seats at the same time, so people will continue to be able to enjoy the same meal in TH MDR -- they may be asked however to sit in a different chair in the space. And anyone who cares to save their money for a bit longer, can choose to them pay a bit more for a Sky Suite and get access to SDR and BLU, or save even a little bit longer, and sail in RS or better to gain Michael's club access. No one cares if you are rich or poor to gain access to these special spaces, anyone can do so, if they save their money long enough.

Some may choose to sail 4 times a year and do so in inside cabins, and lose the extra amenities. Others may sail every 2 years and splurge each 2 years on a Royal Suite.

Cunard, NCL have similar class systems, with dedicated decks and lounges. RCL has dedicated concierge lounges for its Crown and Anchor members of certain tiers. Celebrity's Captain's Club often takes entire venues out of service for it's Captain's Club members, leaving lowly "preview" members out of the fun. I have to assume there are many more cruise lines with varied spaces for varied cabin categories, that do not appear to be "going out of business"

All 3 of these lines are flourishing (as is Celebrity) using earnings reports as guidance, with these "class systems" - as some see them - in place, they don't appear to be "going out of business" anytime soon.

Just like buying a steak at the grocery store, a car, or a plane ticket, you pay more, you get better benefit than others who choose not to pay for the extras.

It's not classism at all, it's Capitalism.

cle-guy,

It will be fascinating to hear the cruisers report of the maiden voyage of Viking Oceans starting in April.

This new kid on the block has, IMO, a new business model, and new ship design, and the best of river cruising service for ocean cruisers.They have ordered three more ships for their line before the first one has even sailed with paying customers. They might give the established lines something to think about.

cle-guy,

It will be fascinating to hear the cruisers report of the maiden voyage of Viking Oceans starting in April.

This new kid on the block has, IMO, a new business model, and new ship design, and the best of river cruising service for ocean cruisers.They have ordered three more ships for their line before the first one has even sailed with paying customers. They might give the established lines something to think about.

Am I reading right that these new Viking ships only carry 930 guests? Not really in the competitive market of Celebrity at all. For me at this point in my life, I want a large passenger count when I sail. I do want to do a river cruise, but this issue so far has caused me to stay away, same with Xpedition. The smallness of the ship also tends to leave it unable to properly support any "VIP related" venues such as dedicated concierge or dining space.

Curious, what is their new business model related to ocean going voyages? From what I've gathered over the last few months, their big deal is doing an ocean cruise then transferring to a river cruise.

Years ago a first time cruiser seen a advertisement for a 7 day trans Atlantic cruise for only $2. He couldn't believe it and told a few friends about it and they all it signed up. As soon as they boarded they were escorted to the lower deck, stripped of their clothes and chained to the oars. For the next seven days they had to row to the beat of the drum along with the rest of the bargain seekers at the expense of the whip. At the end of the cruise he asked asked if it was customary to tip the drum beater? :D

Sorry but it is all about the dollar and we are the cause. We all look for the bargain and everyone that competes for it starts to cut services and qulaliy to keep the price low and cheap. Eventually the cuts can only go so deep and will reach the limit.

Consumers have driven out almost all personal service in retail stores, gas stations, grocery stores and many family store fronts businesses by patronizing those that don't offer any services to save a few dollars.

The cruise lines are now maybe at the level that satisfies the bargain seeker who doesn't want or cares about quality, or services that they claim they never use and don't want to pay for but is now offering it to those that want it.

You can say that they are now giving them the freedom of choice that they wanted.

happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌞

What I don't understand is why if so many are unhappy with the direction Celebrity has chosen to take that they don't vote with their wallets? In any other circumstance if a product I purchase is changed in a way I don't like I would go elsewhere especially if it is a big ticket item. Surely if enough people do so maybe Celebrity would be forced to change direction.

What I don't understand is why if so many are unhappy with the direction Celebrity has chosen to take that they don't vote with their wallets? In any other circumstance if a product I purchase is changed in a way I don't like I would go elsewhere especially if it is a big ticket item. Surely if enough people do so maybe Celebrity would be forced to change direction.

Because these people can also be called "The Vocal Minority". They make lots of noise, there are only a relative few of them, and they take no actions to support their noise.

The mass majority of satisfied consumers simply do not take the time to shout their pleasure, instead they just keep rebooking quietly.

It is reaching 'the limit' I think. My personal limit. If I thought for one minute I was the underdog poor person I would go elsewhere.

I know people like to book suites and people like to book inside cabins.

Cost.

We are all the same though. Just because someone has booked a suite for X quid doesn't mean they should have anything better than an inside saver upper except for their cabin. All the food is cooked in the same kitchen. The bars serve drink. Dine in a speciality restaurant is open to all. The swimming pool. The shows.

We are aqua class this next time. I don't fancy blu. Persian garden? No.

Why did we book! The cabin. My husband fancied a certain deck. I think it is a great waste of money but I will board with a smile on my face!

He is paying :D

Celebrity is only keeping up with the "Jones" with their new suite amenities and Captains Club. The Aqua Class concept was not built based upon what you paid. Remember, at the beginning on the S class ships, suite passengers could not eat in Blu.

I think it will be very telling where Celebrity is going with the new ships, am both excited about them yet a littler concerned. Suite areas will be built into the ship probably imitating the Haven concept on NCL, how far beyond that they go is anyone's guess.

There are some very interesting and well-thought out views on this thread.

The uproar over Michael's Club really puzzles me. That would have been about the last bar we would choose to frequent in the old days. We'll have access to it on our next cruise, but I seriously can't imagine why I would go in there. It has always been a ghost town on our previous cruises, and I suspect with the lower number of passengers being able to access it, it will be even worse.

The restricted areas on Celebrity take up little enough space that it has never bothered me, and I know in the future if I want access to those spaces, all I have to do is sail in a suite or Aqua.

For those who want a classless ship, there are plenty of options. I believe Princess, HAL and Carnival are totally open. Celebrity is trying something different and I don't blame them. The suite class intrigued us enough to book a royal suite for a special occasion. I never thought in a million years we would open our wallets enough to do it anything above Aqua, but clearly they convinced me and probably others as well.

I'm excited to see what the new builds will be like. If suite class is successful on the older ships, they may choose to dedicate more space to suites on the new ships. If it gets to the point I can't enjoy my cruise in a regular cabin, I will have to cruise less often to be able to afford suites, or find another cruise line that suits me. Nice problem to have.

I do think that Azamara should be considering a new build. The Azamara experience is lovely, with many inclusions and interesting itineraries, but I'm not thrilled to sail on those old, small cabin ships. At this point, for many sailings, I can have a suite on Celebrity for the price of a basic cabin on Azamara. The suite experience sounds like it may feel more special than a standard cabin on Azamara, so it's an easy choice for me.

Although this will probably be my first and last Royal suite, I'm pretty excited to try it, and I think Celebrity is smart to court people who don't mind paying for luxury, but enjoy Celebrity enough that they don't want to defect to the luxury lines. If we see suite prices dropping dramatically or suites being turned into regular cabins, we'll know the experiment was unsuccessful. I can't see that happening.

It is a fragile business model when you base everything on $$$.

Things change. People definitely have money today. Many, many more think they have money and pretend like they do. But that can so quickly and brutally change. Anyone remember the mid 80s? How about early 2000s? And oh, that little blip that occurred 2007/08/09?

As far as cruising goes, some companies survived those downturns but others weren't so lucky. But when the high rollers disappeared and were licking their often self-inflicted financial wounds, guess who remained? The loyal cruisers who found a way to save their way to another trip. And frankly, that is what got the survivors--throughout the travel industry--through the hazards they faced.

You can cater to the money spenders all you want, but alienate who brung ya here and you are at your own peril.

Sorry but it is all about the dollar and we are the cause. We all look for the bargain and everyone that competes for it starts to cut services and qulaliy to keep the price low and cheap. Eventually the cuts can only go so deep and will reach the limit.

 

Consumers have driven out almost all personal service in retail stores, gas stations, grocery stores and many family store fronts businesses by patronizing those that don't offer any services to save a few dollars.

 

The cruise lines are now maybe at the level that satisfies the bargain seeker who doesn't want or cares about quality, or services that they claim they never use and don't want to pay for but is now offering it to those that want it.

 

You can say that they are now giving them the freedom of choice that they wanted.

 

happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌞

Miched - I often find myself nodding in agreement at your posts - and this is no exception.

I agree that full service and bargain prices are often mutually exclusive and this new approach to special suite level services is likely an effort by X to offer the extras to those who wish to (and can afford to) pay for them.

In trying to figure out why people find this so upsetting, I've argued both sides in my head - but in the end feel like this is not much different to belonging to a country club which is available to those who purchased homes within a certain community. So long as they don't start restricting who can or cannot purchase a home there, I am ok with that.

As for the cruise experience, I will decide whether or not I continue to sail Celebrity strictly based on my enjoyment of the cruise experience and whether I believe I am getting what I thought I was paying for. I haven't sailed with them in several years (or with anyone else for that matter) and hope that the things that made my last cruise on a Celebrity special still resonate with me.

Just my 2-cents :)

I have seen in many industries that it is very difficult to make money when your product becomes a commodity. [Notice that Apple sells a small percentage of cell phones but takes home the vast majority of all profit in that industry -- the other vendors are all commoditized; only Apple has distinguished its products so that it can name its price.] Celebrity has been trying to compete with the commodity cruise lines and as a result has had to reduce quality and service to the point that this forum is full of complaints about the cuts. So now they are trying to differentiate themselves by offering the higher level of food and service that people have been clamoring for -- at the price necessary to make it work -- while still offering the commodity version of Celebrity for those who are unwilling to pay more. IMHO the complaints are coming from those who refuse to understand economics and think that Celebrity could provide the prior levels of quality and service at today's commodity prices -- sorry, that isn't possible and won't happen.

We are all the same though. Just because someone has booked a suite for X quid doesn't mean they should have anything better than an inside saver upper except for their cabin. All the food is cooked in the same kitchen. The bars serve drink. Dine in a speciality restaurant is open to all. The swimming pool. The shows.

So the next time you are flying coach - take a peak up in Business or First Class. Those people will be lounging in their humungous seats while sipping a free cocktail. They'll be offered a full meal while you get a coke and peanuts. The bathroom upfront is restricted to First Class or Business. Did they only pay for a larger seat? Of course not - they paid for priority boarding, space, better food and a higher class of service - how is that any different than cruising in a suite or in an inside? Right - no difference. You get what you play for. If you want the cheap seats - you don't get the same level of service, you do however all arrive at the same destination. ;)

So the next time you are flying coach - take a peak up in Business or First Class. Those people will be lounging in their humungous seats while sipping a free cocktail. They'll be offered a full meal while you get a coke and peanuts. The bathroom upfront is restricted to First Class or Business. Did they only pay for a larger seat? Of course not - they paid for priority boarding, space, better food and a higher class of service - how is that any different than cruising in a suite or in an inside? Right - no difference. You get what you play for. If you want the cheap seats - you don't get the same level of service, you do however all arrive at the same destination. ;)

And hopefully when I die they will remember me and say, 'she travelled the world and saw this country and that country' and not, 'well how lucky was she, being able to use the first class bathroom on her flight!' :p :rolleyes:

I agree with you however it is all about money. Making these special places that are only available to a select few allows the line to charge that few lots of money which they are happy to shell out because it allows them to feel special. I look at cruising like real-estate. Would you rather have the best room on a midrange ship or the worst room on a luxury ship?

This is exactly how I see it. I'm beginning to find that if we shop carefully, we can cruise on smaller ships, on more luxurious lines, in far nicer regular cabins, for less than Celebrity charges for their top-end suites. All the perks and services are there, and the only thing we might be missing is a little square footage.

Years ago, before Celebrity, I cruised on ships that had class distinctions with different dining rooms depending on your type of cabin. Menus and service varied. Deck areas and chairs were reserved for you. Your name was posted on a deck chair. That was the only chair on the deck that you could use. Less expensive cabins got chairs in poor locations near smoke stacks and in areas without shade. Often there were hundreds of empty chairs that I could not use. Deck stewards told you to leave if you dared to sit on a different chair. Some venues were off limits to people in less expensive cabins. Formal night was every night. White tie for the more expensive cabins and black tie for the others. It was elegant and expensive. The more you spent, the more areas of the ship were open to you. For people who spent less, there were many closed areas.There was no loyalty program. There weren't many cruise lines competing for customers. Cruising was an experience that cost a lot of money. In the 80s, a lot of new cruise lines entered the cruising market. With more ships sailing, cruise fares became more affordable. When Royal Caribbean started sailing with no class restrictions, I jumped at the opportunity to sail. I loved being able to sit down anywhere on a deck chair. The entire ship was open. Everyone enjoyed the same food, shows, towels, etc. If you chose to buy a more expensive cabin, you had more space or a more desirable location. Evening dress code was more relaxed. Only a few nights were formal. The new type of one class cruising attracted a lot of people. Soon, more new cruise lines were sailing with one class including Celebrity. Many of the older cruise lines with class distinctions were out of business. Now, after more than 35 years of no class distinctions, many areas of the ship are now restricted. I cannot go to Michael's Club unless I am Zenith or sail in a suite. I cannot eat in Blu unless I sail in Aqua Class. Seats in the main show room are reserved on formal nights. The new suite dining room will also be another restricted area. When will I be restricted to my one deck chair? Each time I sail on Celebrity, I am reminded of those old cruise lines. There seems to be more class distinctions. I love the open ship concept with unreserved deck chairs. Most of the class system cruise lines are out of business. Bring back the open class experience.

Are you saying that cruise lines should only offer those amenities that you're willing to pay for?

Very interesting history lesson, OP. Being relatively new to cruising, I was totally unaware of things like designated lounge chairs. I am so glad it is not that way anymore, and I believe I take your point about hoping things don't devolve all the way back to that, and I hope so, too.

Personally I am okay with the suite and aqua benefits. If I really want them, I do not mind paying extra, especially these days when certain cruises are really very cheap, even in suites. And fortunately for us, the extremely high prices of cruises of yesteryear have not returned in many cases. But I understand your point, and appreciate reading it. :)

I have seen in many industries that it is very difficult to make money when your product becomes a commodity. [Notice that Apple sells a small percentage of cell phones but takes home the vast majority of all profit in that industry -- the other vendors are all commoditized; only Apple has distinguished its products so that it can name its price.] Celebrity has been trying to compete with the commodity cruise lines and as a result has had to reduce quality and service to the point that this forum is full of complaints about the cuts. So now they are trying to differentiate themselves by offering the higher level of food and service that people have been clamoring for -- at the price necessary to make it work -- while still offering the commodity version of Celebrity for those who are unwilling to pay more. IMHO the complaints are coming from those who refuse to understand economics and think that Celebrity could provide the prior levels of quality and service at today's commodity prices -- sorry, that isn't possible and won't happen.

Bravo.

Had a long winded comment, then decided it was not worth the time:rolleyes: