Missing the old Celebrity, thinking about Azamara

[hiccups]

18 minutes ago, tgg said:

I'd suggest you look at the deck plans for decks 4 and 5.  If you're forward, you'll be under the show lounge and you'll hear them practicing in the afternoon and you'll hear the whole show at night. (This may not matter to you, especially if you're AT the show.)

 

But you'll definitely hear the anchor being deployed in the morning when you reach a tendering port. It will wake you with a jolt. So choose a cabin toward the middle of the ship. You'll be much happier.

Yep, this was exactly our experience, but I hadn't read anything about it on Cruise Critic for those cabins before we booked.  We were on a 13-night cruise and I wasn't a very happy camper.  Err, cruiser.

[Covepointcruiser]

We have not had a tendering port on Azamara.  Our cabin was on deck eight, far forward.    Our next trip on the Journey will be in the starboard forward cabin.   Glad we are early risers.   We have sailed both Azamara and Seabourn.   If you are in a suite on Azamara, even the small ones, you receive unlimited specialty restaurants.   They have an Italian and a steak restaurant.   If you don’t like steak or lobster tails for the White Night you can eat in other restaurants.   Seabourn is stuffier and quite happy with themselves.   Everyone is supposedly treated the same onboard, however we did notice certain passengers always had the best tables.   The wine on Seabourn is okay but not great so to enjoy good wines you need to pay extra.   The same applies to top brands of hard liquor.   Best advice, stick with the line you enjoy.   

[alwaysonaship]

I would recommend you look at Seabourn. We have been very pleased with them, and they are all inclusive except for shore excursions. Small ships, and nice size cabins. We are cruising with them next month. Booked a guarantee as they have no bad cabins. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by alwaysonaship
Typo

[Georgia_Peaches]

Well I was curious about Azamara so I started lurking on their board and found out quite by accident that they are phasing out their casinos in favor of a cocktail lounge/music venue.  That was a deal breaker for me as DH and I both enjoy our visits to the casino in the evening.

[critterchick]

9 hours ago, ECCruise said:

I've seen you posted that before on here and wondering what itinerary?  We've had over 100 nights on Azamara and honestly, believe the longest wait we've ever had was 10 minutes or so.  Always 2 tops.  Always 7:00-7:30. 

We have about 75 nights with Azamara and until our last cruise I would have agreed with you. On our Japan intensive itinerary in April/May, we had to wait a minimum of 30 minutes for a table every time, also two tops. We dine at 8:00 or later, and found that, with the first show in the cabaret at 8:30, people would linger at the table because there was literally nothing else to do but go drink at a bar until showtime.

 

1 hour ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

Well I was curious about Azamara so I started lurking on their board and found out quite by accident that they are phasing out their casinos in favor of a cocktail lounge/music venue.  That was a deal breaker for me as DH and I both enjoy our visits to the casino in the evening.

 

We called that venue The Morgue on our last cruise on Quest. There was a pianist who was very talented but had no guest relations skill, just played his set and ran away. No patter, no engaging anybody that wanted to talk with him (us, for example). Otherwise it was just a bunch of old farts drinking more than we should. For excitement we could watch people booking shore excursions or future cruises. DH has already said that he won’t go on Azamara again because of the loss of the casino.

 

I disagree that the food and service are superior on Azamara (I’ve been on both lines in the last year), although I admit that I’ve always been in AQ or a suite, so don’t have a lot of experience with the MDR food. The Oceanview Cafe is better than the Windows Cafe -    More variety and fresher. I find the service on both lines to be exceptional.

 

The included beverages on Azamara are as basic as they come. The wines range from pretty good to dreadful (mostly just ok) and the hard liquors are typical house brands. Sparkling water is not included. It was akin to the Elite happy hour list, which at Azamara pricing is shameful.

 

What has always set Azamara apart for me is the itinerary and some of the interesting things they do that relate to the ports of call. Our 14 night best of Italy cruise in 2009 had two sea days. Our 11+8 B2B in 2017 had none. Our 16 night Japan intensive cruise had one. It’s exhausting, to be sure, but a wonderful way to see a lot of the world - we were in ports until 10:00 or overnight many times. I loved that part, and could forgive the horrid entertainment because I was often ready for bed after dinner ended at 10:00. But on a cruise with a lot of sea days, I develop cabin fever quickly on Azamara. We had 5 straight sea days on Solstice and they went by in the blink of an eye.

 

And Azamara is way more expensive than Celebrity, at least the cruises I’ve looked at. i think that for both lines booking after final payment is the way to go if you’re ok with the ship potentially selling out and aren’t picky about your cabin. They drastically discount unsold cabins then.

 

And both lines are busily ruining their cabins as they modernize. If I’m going to be driven out in search of a couch, I’d rather it be on a Celebrity ship.

[footer6]

We did a European cruise on the Journey.  The Azamara prices are much higher than Celebrity.  We got a promotion for a balcony at the inside price.  That got us to $2700 pp for a 7 day cruise.  Different experience than on Celebrity with the smaller ship.  Azamara ships are 30,000 grt.  Celebrity M Class 90,000 grt, and S Class 122,000 grt. The good - Food and service were great (not appreciably better than Celebrity).  Whenever we debarked, the Captain was standing on the dock to see us off.  The Azmazing Evening is a great feature.  A complimentary shore event.  Ours was the Canne Symphony Orchestra and a vocalist at a 12th century monastery.  Memorable.  The Azamara ships get into ports the larger ships can't get into.  The not so good - Refurbished or not, the ship is 19 years old.  Azamara has three of the old Regency ships, which were cleverly named R1 through R8.  Balcony cabins are smaller than M Class balconies.  If you are a fan of the big Celebrity buffet lunch venue, not on Azamara.  Much smaller area with fewer choices.  Again, food was fine, but a different experience.  On balance, go Azamara for unique port calls, and expect a quieter trip with an older crowd.

[bigbenboys]

4 hours ago, alwaysonaship said:

I would recommend you look at Seabourn. We have been very pleased with them, and they are all inclusive except for shore excursions. Small ships, and nice size cabins. We are cruising with them next month. Booked a guarantee as they have no bad cabins. 

We have looked at Seabourn, but it is the dress code that puts us off. 

[crazyman3]

Reading the Az pages, there are plenty of ex-Celebrity cruisers there.

We are trying Az for the first time next year...  This is for the amazing itinerary but... well, we'll see how it goes! Perhaps we'll book X again or maybe we'll change to Az.

[villauk]

4 minutes ago, crazyman3 said:

Reading the Az pages, there are plenty of ex-Celebrity cruisers there.

 

 

Yes, I noticed that yesterday when I was investigating, after seeing a lovely itinerary on Azamara for the Med priced less than X.

[rollie]

Thanks for all the replies.  Lots of food for thought.  We still love Celebrity, and we have 3 future cruises booked.  Areas that I feel that Celebrity has slipped,

MDR food and service, Edge class ships are not for me, the constant hacking for speciality restaurants and drinks packages, the long lines and hustle and bustle boarding and disembarking the ship.

     I may be a romantic, but I really miss the Zenith and Century class ships.

 

Rollie

[excitedofharpenden]

On 8/28/2019 at 10:30 AM, rollie said:

Our first Celebrity cruise was on the Galaxy back in 2001 (still one of our favorite cruises).  We really miss the old Celebrity, and thinking we might find it on Azamara.  Any thoughts would be helpful.

 

Rollie

Hi Rollie.  So you’ve read lots about Azamara here from things I totally agree with (particularly ECCruise and peter pan) to things I don’t like the cabins are tiny. 

 

I started out on Azamara in 2011 to see if I liked it.  I was concerned that the cabins would be too small, the balconies not as spacious and the ship as a whole not large enough.  I would comment that the cabins are smaller than Celebrity (although at 170 sq feet, the same size as those that were on Galaxy), but totally not “tiny” and have good storage.  The balconies are definitely not as deep as Celebrity, but totally fine to sit on with a nice table and chairs.  The ship as a whole is more more intimate and I liked it.

 

Service in comparison to what I’ve experienced on Celebrity over recent years is night and day.  Much more friendly.  Much more personal and much more consistent.  They seem to put most of the superior servers in the “suite areas” on X where they fawn over you.  Move away from the suite areas and I’ve experienced great service, but also horrible.  Truly awful.  Azamara being a smaller ship and crew I have never had this problem and everyone gets treated the same, whether in a big suite or inside cabin.  I like that very much.

 

There's been much talk here of cabin location.  There is a sticky on the Azamara board of cabin choice which if you haven’t seen it is worth a read.  I’ve stayed all over the ship and know which places or cabin categories to avoid. For instance I won’t take an OV guarantee cabin, because it’s likely you’ll be allocated a forward cabin on deck 4 with the noise that can go with that.

 

I've done 6 transatlantics on Azamara ships and not been sea sick on any of them, so my other fear of a small ship was nothing to worry about.  

 

In summary, give them a go.  I like them as much now as I did back in 2011 and the crew and ship make it feel like coming back home every time.  And that happened very quickly.  Like after my 2nd or 3rd.  I’ve just done my 45th on Azamara.

 

Phil

Edited August 29, 2019 by excitedofharpenden

[ECCruise]

14 hours ago, Cruise Junky said:

Thanks...we're further back in 4041 which I don't think puts us under the show lounge either.  Good to know.   I agree, I don't we'd ever do a TA on something this small. 

We've done 24 crossings, 5 in R class ships.  Good weather and really bad (30+ foot seas).  The difference in size really does not make an enormous difference.  When the seas are rough,  it often depends on the swell length to how much pitch is involved.  If the ship is rolling, then it will be less noticeable on a ship with less decks (smaller) on the upper decks.

Now if you want a real experience, try 45 foot seas in a 10,000 ton vessel in Antarctica.  With stabilizers withdrawn because of icebergs.  And honestly, the way that ship was moving I felt safer (in a crazy manner of speaking 😲) in a smaller ship closer to the seas than I would have on the upper decks of, say, an S class ship, swaying to and fro.  But that is totally subjective. Wouldn't want to test it. 🤔

[alwaysonaship]

10 hours ago, bigbenboys said:

We have looked at Seabourn, but it is the dress code that puts us off. 

What is an issue with the dress code. My husband takes a nice sports coat.  Basically he wears the same clothing and so do I as we did in The suite restaurant. If you look at the two I would say they are about the same 

 

Seabourn Sojourn Dress Code

Seabourn has a written dress code as follows: Elegant casual on most nights, after 6 p.m., in all restaurants and public areas. This means collared dress shirt and slacks for men, jacket optional; slacks or a skirt with a blouse or dress for women.

 

 

Azamara Journey Dress Code

Azamara calls its dress code "resort casual"; there are no formal nights. The line does ask passengers to refrain from wearing blue jeans in the main dining room and specialty restaurants after 6 p.m., and tank tops, ball caps, bathing suits and shorts are also not permitted.

 

[alwaysonaship]

15 hours ago, Covepointcruiser said:

We have not had a tendering port on Azamara.  Our cabin was on deck eight, far forward.    Our next trip on the Journey will be in the starboard forward cabin.   Glad we are early risers.   We have sailed both Azamara and Seabourn.   If you are in a suite on Azamara, even the small ones, you receive unlimited specialty restaurants.   They have an Italian and a steak restaurant.   If you don’t like steak or lobster tails for the White Night you can eat in other restaurants.   Seabourn is stuffier and quite happy with themselves.   Everyone is supposedly treated the same onboard, however we did notice certain passengers always had the best tables.   The wine on Seabourn is okay but not great so to enjoy good wines you need to pay extra.   The same applies to top brands of hard liquor.   Best advice, stick with the line you enjoy.   

I did not find the guests stuffy at all. People were friendly and welcoming. We had no issues with the wine or cocktails .Our cabin stewardess kept our wine and other drinks in the cabin replaced without ever asking, and the choices of Cognac were always good unless you drink in the $250 a bottle category. All alcohol is included not just wine at dinner.  

 

 

[Cyber Kat]

Our favorite line at the moment is Viking. I say “at the moment,” because we haven’t tried some of the other premium and luxury lines. We like a smart casual dress code and that’s what it’s like on Viking. 

 

We like to mix in some less expensive cruises because Viking is expensive. We did an Azamara cruise this past spring and we had a very good cruise with them. It left and returned to our local port and it was an unusual itinerary NY - Charleston, SC - Hamilton (docked in Hamilton) Bermuda - NY. 10 days and it was a very nice break. 

 

If you are going to cruise on Azamara, I recommend not reading the Azamara board. They will raise your expectations too high. All I kept hearing about was the stellar service and the wonderful interaction with the crew. We experienced neither. 

 

The stellar service seemed to be reserved for repeat customers, sometimes to the detriment of those of us sailing with them for the first time. There would be groups of wait staff frequently hanging around chatting with other tables, while we waited for food or drink refills. These other tables were clearly repeat guests. 

 

The service on the whole was okay - better on the whole than the other mainstream lines we have been on, but IMO not as good as Viking. 

 

We have a Celebrity cruise booked on Equinox for next spring. I’m hoping it will be a good option for us when we are looking for less expensive cruises to fit in between our Viking cruises.  We are booked in a Sky Suite, so we are hoping for a good cruise experience. We prefer the smaller ships, but Equinox doesn’t go over our 3000 limit, and having the suite will help. 

 

I mostly posted this to tell  @rollie about our Azamara experience.  I really do think the regulars on the Azamara board do the line a disservice by raising expectations too high, because there is a difference between the repeat cruiser experience and the first (or even second and third - we spoke with a few) time cruiser experience. 

 

We had very little interaction with the officers, but it’s not really something I’m looking for on a cruise. I’m happy interacting with my steward and the wait staff. I’d prefer the officers to be off doing their jobs 😁. Where do they find the time?

 

If the itinerary was right and Viking wasn’t doing it, or Azamara was doing it much cheaper, I would absolutely do another with them. It’s true the cabins are small, especially when compared with Viking, but the space was more than adequate - except for the bathroom. That was tiny.  The balcony was fine.  It didn’t need to be bigger. We weren’t throwing a wild party out there 😝

 

Though there were only 690 guests, there were times when it felt a bit crowded - but nothing like the bigger ships. The food was good - sometimes fabulous, sometimes just okay. The scones for afternoon tea are scrumptious, and the tapas were excellent. This is afternoons and early evening in the Living Room. The gelato was fabulous. 

 

We never had to wait long for a table for 2 at 7-7:30.  Once they said the wait would be 15-20 minutes, so we sat down in the bar area and they came over less than 5 minutes later. Another time they said there would be a wait unless we wanted to share. We said okay, and the experience was okay, but less than optimal. We like socializing and meeting people, but I just don’t find the dinner table the best place for that. If you don’t care for the people you are chatting with at a bar, you can get up  and leave. At dinner, you are kind of stuck for the duration. 

 

The sea day trivia games were a step up from what we have done before, different and quite fun!  The pool has no cover, so unless it’s warm, there’s no swimming. The lounges are comfy and the Patio grill is open, but covered.  We often ate lunch out there. The 2 specialty restaurants were very good. 

 

So I hope my rambling tale helps. Looking forward to our Equinox cruise next spring.   Lots of firsts for us!

 

 

 

 

[cinnamon]

16 hours ago, Cruise Junky said:

Thanks...we're further back in 4041 which I don't think puts us under the show lounge either.  Good to know.   I agree, I don't we'd ever do a TA on something this small. 

We’ve taken several Transatlantics on Azamara with mixed weather. Whilst I wouldn’t like being far forward, mid-ships on deck 4 was absolutely fine. I suffer motion headaches in rough seas and only ever needed mild meds, even in the worst seas. 

[Cyber Kat]

9 minutes ago, alwaysonaship said:

What is an issue with the dress code. My husband takes a nice sports coat.  Basically he wears the same clothing and so do I as we did in The suite restaurant. If you look at the two I would say they are about the same 

 

Seabourn Sojourn Dress Code

Seabourn has a written dress code as follows: Elegant casual on most nights, after 6 p.m., in all restaurants and public areas. This means collared dress shirt and slacks for men, jacket optional; slacks or a skirt with a blouse or dress for women.

 

 

Azamara Journey Dress Code

Azamara calls its dress code "resort casual"; there are no formal nights. The line does ask passengers to refrain from wearing blue jeans in the main dining room and specialty restaurants after 6 p.m., and tank tops, ball caps, bathing suits and shorts are also not permitted.

 

 

Doesn’t Seabourn have formal nights? We have been looking at other premium and luxury lines and rejecting those with formal or very dressy requirements. I don’t mind pants and a sparkly top, but I draw the line at dresses and my husband’s line is jacket and tie. Smart casual is our preferred dinner attire. 

[alwaysonaship]

Not really. We have cruised with them multiple times. My husband doesn’t own a tux, and you will see a few people dressed up more than others, but we take what we normally take for any cruise. I think for the MDR a tie is required on a formal night, but there are other options such as the colonnade to eat in. There is also Thomas Keller restaurant.  No extra charge for any speciality restaurant. 

 

My issue with Viking is I am not going to pay in full when the reservation is made. Seabourn is 90 days and Crystal is 120. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by alwaysonaship
Added

[G2G]

I have sailed with Azamara 18+ times and have seen many changes over the years and whils I know that most cruise lines are making cuts, the one's onboard Azamaras ships have spoiled the experience.

 

I have sailed with Seabourn and Crystal and Azamara is not in the same league. I must mention that I retried Celebrity last year and whilst I was concerned about sailing on a large ship again, I had a fabulous time.

 

I choose my cruise by the itinerary and per diam cost and will happily sail with the company that provides what I'm looking for. I do prefer smaller ships and if Azamara was sailing to somewhere at the right price I would consider them again.

Be aware that the entertainment is negligible. There are restrictions now on what are inclusive drinks and for me, the fares are way too high for what you get. 

The staff are wonderful, but I was very happy with the staff on the Reflection last year.

 

If the price and itinerary are right, give them a try 🙂

 

[bigbenboys]

2 hours ago, alwaysonaship said:

What is an issue with the dress code. My husband takes a nice sports coat.  Basically he wears the same clothing and so do I as we did in The suite restaurant. If you look at the two I would say they are about the same 

 

Seabourn Sojourn Dress Code

Seabourn has a written dress code as follows: Elegant casual on most nights, after 6 p.m., in all restaurants and public areas. This means collared dress shirt and slacks for men, jacket optional; slacks or a skirt with a blouse or dress for women.

 

 

Azamara Journey Dress Code

Azamara calls its dress code "resort casual"; there are no formal nights. The line does ask passengers to refrain from wearing blue jeans in the main dining room and specialty restaurants after 6 p.m., and tank tops, ball caps, bathing suits and shorts are also not permitted.

 

I dont want this to turn into a dress code thread. This is from the Seabourn website. I'm one that follows the rules on cruise ships per their dress code. I dont want to wear a suit or tux. I like wearing jeans and a shirt or polo. This is the reason I personally like Azamara over Seabourn. I wear a polo and Jeans in Luminae on Celebrity. The only reason I mentioned the dress code was for the OP to understand there was a difference.

How Should I Pack?

Attire During the Day:

During the daytime, casual, resort-style attire, including shorts and jeans, is welcome in all lounges and dining venues. Swimsuits, brief shorts, cover-ups and exercise attire should be reserved for poolside, on deck or in the spa and fitness center.

In the evening (after 6pm) there are two different dress codes:

Elegant Casual

Men: Slacks with a collared dress shirt or sweater; Jacket Optional. Ladies: Slacks / skirt, blouse, pant suit or dress. This is the dress standard for all dining venues

Jeans are welcome in all dining venues during the day, but not appropriate in The Restaurant after 6pm.

Formal

In the Restaurant, Men: Tuxedo, suit or slacks and jacket required. Ladies: evening gown or other formal apparel. Dress in other dining venues is Elegant Casual.

Jeans are welcome in all dining venues during the day, but not appropriate in the Restaurant after 6pm.

The itinerary in the preliminary document booklet will inform you of the number of Formal evenings to expect during your voyage. As a rule of thumb, Formal evenings are scheduled as follows:

Cruises up to 13 days: One Formal evening

Cruises of 14 to 20 days: Two Formal evenings

Cruises of 21 or more days: Three Formal evenings

[hiccups]

2 hours ago, Cyber Kat said:

 

If you are going to cruise on Azamara, I recommend not reading the Azamara board. They will raise your expectations too high. All I kept hearing about was the stellar service and the wonderful interaction with the crew. We experienced neither. 

 

The stellar service seemed to be reserved for repeat customers, sometimes to the detriment of those of us sailing with them for the first time. There would be groups of wait staff frequently hanging around chatting with other tables, while we waited for food or drink refills. These other tables were clearly repeat guests. 

 

I mostly posted this to tell  @rollie about our Azamara experience.  I really do think the regulars on the Azamara board do the line a disservice by raising expectations too high, because there is a difference between the repeat cruiser experience and the first (or even second and third - we spoke with a few) time cruiser experience. 

 

We had very little interaction with the officers, but it’s not really something I’m looking for on a cruise. I’m happy interacting with my steward and the wait staff. I’d prefer the officers to be off doing their jobs 😁. Where do they find the time?

 

This describes our experience to a T.   Glad to know it wasn't just us!  I certainly expect frequent cruisers to be greeted warmly and have more interaction with the staff, but it shouldn't come at a noticeable cost to other passengers.

[alwaysonaship]

1 hour ago, bigbenboys said:

I dont want this to turn into a dress code thread. This is from the Seabourn website. I'm one that follows the rules on cruise ships per their dress code. I dont want to wear a suit or tux. I like wearing jeans and a shirt or polo. This is the reason I personally like Azamara over Seabourn. I wear a polo and Jeans in Luminae on Celebrity. The only reason I mentioned the dress code was for the OP to understand there was a difference.

How Should I Pack?

Attire During the Day:

During the daytime, casual, resort-style attire, including shorts and jeans, is welcome in all lounges and dining venues. Swimsuits, brief shorts, cover-ups and exercise attire should be reserved for poolside, on deck or in the spa and fitness center.

In the evening (after 6pm) there are two different dress codes:

Elegant Casual

Men: Slacks with a collared dress shirt or sweater; Jacket Optional. Ladies: Slacks / skirt, blouse, pant suit or dress. This is the dress standard for all dining venues

Jeans are welcome in all dining venues during the day, but not appropriate in The Restaurant after 6pm.

Formal

In the Restaurant, Men: Tuxedo, suit or slacks and jacket required. Ladies: evening gown or other formal apparel. Dress in other dining venues is Elegant Casual.

Jeans are welcome in all dining venues during the day, but not appropriate in the Restaurant after 6pm.

The itinerary in the preliminary document booklet will inform you of the number of Formal evenings to expect during your voyage. As a rule of thumb, Formal evenings are scheduled as follows:

Cruises up to 13 days: One Formal evening

Cruises of 14 to 20 days: Two Formal evenings

Cruises of 21 or more days: Three Formal evenings

This isn’t a dress code thread. We personally don’t think jeans are appropriate in a nice restaurant at night. I don’t own any, and my husband wouldn’t take them on a cruise..just different opinions. Have a nice trip whatever cruise you choose 

[mchell810]

3 hours ago, Cyber Kat said:

If you are going to cruise on Azamara, I recommend not reading the Azamara board. They will raise your expectations too high. All I kept hearing about was the stellar service and the wonderful interaction with the crew. We experienced neither. 

 

The stellar service seemed to be reserved for repeat customers, sometimes to the detriment of those of us sailing with them for the first time. There would be groups of wait staff frequently hanging around chatting with other tables, while we waited for food or drink refills. These other tables were clearly repeat guests. 

 

I have to agree with Cyber Kat: I read a lot on the Azamara board and had high expectations that just didn't pan out.  My cruise was fine, but the stellar experience I was looking for wasn't there.  I like the long port days Azamara offers and I would sail them again if the price were right. I am better able to judge that having had the experience.  For now, my next cruise is booked on Celebrity.

[alwaysonaship]

3 hours ago, Cyber Kat said:

 

Doesn’t Seabourn have formal nights? We have been looking at other premium and luxury lines and rejecting those with formal or very dressy requirements. I don’t mind pants and a sparkly top, but I draw the line at dresses and my husband’s line is jacket and tie. Smart casual is our preferred dinner attire. 

To answer your question.. I don’t own a dress.  . I do have nice dressy silk pants, and no sparkly tops anymore. 

[Cyber Kat]

25 minutes ago, alwaysonaship said:

To answer your question.. I don’t own a dress.  . I do have nice dressy silk pants, and no sparkly tops anymore. 

Well the post above says: "Formal

In the Restaurant, Men: Tuxedo, suit or slacks and jacket required. Ladies: evening gown or other formal apparel."  This is why we will most likely never cruise Seabourn.  Probably not Crystal, either.

I'm happy with Viking, Azamara and I will probably be happy with Celebrity as well.  We are in a suite, and I understand that Luminae doesn't do the Chic Nights, so smart casual will be fine.