Interesting Development Re Service Dogs

[Globehoppers]

22 hours ago, Mavis and Me said:

Yea, but my dog isn’t a robot that can go-go-go 24/7.  I’d like her to last at least 6 years LOVING the work she does, and working her into the ground would be counter productive.  Sure, she’d rather be with me 24/7, but that’s not always in HER best interest. True, my family can’t predict when something is off about me, but they can help me manage it once it happens.  My dog gives me incredible independence and makes it possible for my family to function without worrying about babysitting me every time I want to do something!

 

22 hours ago, TNTLAMB said:

That's not true. For example,  my Grandaughters service animal is trained to react to a seizure in a number of ways. But she does not "see them coming " My granddaughter now 20 however knows when one is coming and simply moves a sash she is wearing from one side to the other and the dog is on alert.

 

He will react irregardless if she seizes. The dog incidentally cost 6000dollars fully covered by insurance. In addition the testing also cost her nothing as the independent testing organization can not take payment from either the trainer or the owners.  That is not the case with ESA animals. The testing was quite an experience.  In the resteraunt portion as Sheeba was laying under the table a series of treats were laid one inch from her nose.  The expectation was she would not react in any way. Quite the test. That dog when off duty would do back flips for a French fry. As far as aggressive that's another thing when my granddaughter is siezes Sheba's first job is to clear the area and she will as well as keep it clear.

 

 

I would suggest to both of you that cruising may not be something you really want to do because of your health.  I don't ride roller coasters because of a cracked vertebrae in my neck.  A jolt the wrong way could paralyze me.  Be true to yourself and courteous to others.  Especially if you have a medical condition that could require a specific emergency response which is generally not available onboard any cruise ship.

[MrPantsOz]

The lady who owns the dog in question in the original post had this to say on the Princess official page today

" Just giving you a heads up my Review is on it’s way. You won’t like it you won’t be happy, and the actions on the Ship have cost Princess not only 6 more cruises from me but also a Stock Dump. Yes I will be publishing Publicly Thanks. "

 

Looks like no one (traveling on Princess at least) needs to worry about the dog anymore.

 

[lois1112]

On 11/12/2019 at 8:11 AM, Cruise Raider said:

Aside from whether or not an 'emotional support' animal should be allowed on a cruise and, might I point out, there is no question in my mind that a true service animal should not even be questioned, the fact that it was mentioned that the owner of this animal threatened another passenger should be grounds enough to ban her from cruising on that line.  This is the part I find most disturbing, although, if she was truly accosted by that other passenger, my question would be, 'did he speak to her aggressively or did he grab her'?  If it escalated to a physical confrontation, they should both be banned.  If he just said something to the effect of 'why the heck did you bring that dog with you?', well, that's another story.   Any true service animal should not threaten the well being of another passenger and nobody should have the right to say they will 'turn their dog loose' on another passenger. 

Happy cruising everybody!! 

 

perfectly said

[Mavis and Me]

2 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

 

 

I would suggest to both of you that cruising may not be something you really want to do because of your health. ...  Be true to yourself and courteous to others.  Especially if you have a medical condition that could require a specific emergency response which is generally not available onboard any cruise ship.

Wow. That’s quite the statement. I enjoy cruising and my service dog is very well trained. People tell me all the time that they “didn’t even know she was there” because she stays so well hidden and quiet. I don’t think I am being discourteous at all by using her assistance to enjoy my independence, but I’m sorry that the idea of seeing a service dog heeling down the hallway would disrupt your vacation to such a degree. I can’t ride roller coasters either, but I sure as heck can (and HAVE) cruised in the past, and I very much enjoy it! I think you should let other people worry about what they can and can not do. We can all be upset by the OP story of a supposedly disruptive SD handler and her possibly ‘out of control’ SD, but to start arguments with SD handlers and their families about health issues that you know nothing about and what they should and/or shouldn’t choose to do because of their disabilities is quite ridiculous.

[lois1112]

I work in a hospital, and we have to work under the same guidelines. 

Actually service  miniature horses are allowed. (and service dogs)

We have the right (and we have) to ask people with dirty dogs (mange even) and aggressive dogs to leave (we recently had a "service dog bite a nurse)

Unfortunately for a cruise line, they are in the service industry and don't want to anger people by kicking them or their animals off. 

Eventually something will happen.  

[Reader0108598]

34 minutes ago, lois1112 said:

I work in a hospital, and we have to work under the same guidelines. 

Actually service  miniature horses are allowed. (and service dogs)

We have the right (and we have) to ask people with dirty dogs (mange even) and aggressive dogs to leave (we recently had a "service dog bite a nurse)

Unfortunately for a cruise line, they are in the service industry and don't want to anger people by kicking them or their animals off. 

Eventually something will happen.  

Worked in  long term care ! I worked a few different jobs in my 25 years there, last was security!  I was not allowed to stop them by admins orders .We had all kinds of sick elderly patients yet we let these nasty owners come in!  I say Nasty owners because it is not the dogs fault it looks like something that came back from Pet Cemetary !(State facility!) Wimps for Admins! On the other hand we had Lucy a beautiful Blonde Lab! Her owner was older would use the bathroom leave her in the lobby she would stare at that door until he came out..lol Would never move or pay any attention to anyone unless he told her it was ok! Her tail would wag like crazy she would put her head in a position so a patient could pet her 

🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 😞

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Reader0108598

[Shmoo here]

3 hours ago, MrPantsOz said:

The lady who owns the dog in question in the original post had this to say on the Princess official page today

" Just giving you a heads up my Review is on it’s way. You won’t like it you won’t be happy, and the actions on the Ship have cost Princess not only 6 more cruises from me but also a Stock Dump. Yes I will be publishing Publicly Thanks. "

 

Looks like no one (traveling on Princess at least) needs to worry about the dog anymore.

 

Where is the "Princess Official Page"?

[Aus Traveller]

3 hours ago, MrPantsOz said:

The lady who owns the dog in question in the original post had this to say on the Princess official page today

" Just giving you a heads up my Review is on it’s way. You won’t like it you won’t be happy, and the actions on the Ship have cost Princess not only 6 more cruises from me but also a Stock Dump. Yes I will be publishing Publicly Thanks. "

A "stock dump" with the implication that this will hurt Carnival? She has got to be joking. The sale of one person's stockholding, even if it was 500 shares, wouldn't make any difference to the price of Carnival stock. It is constantly being traded.

 

I wonder if she owned 100 or 200 shares.🙂 

[rugerdog]

24 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

Where is the "Princess Official Page

 

I believe the poster was referring to that social media website that starts with F and and ends with BOOK.  If you do a google search for Princess Cruises and included the above-referenced word, you'll find it.

[LMADAMS91]

On 11/17/2019 at 3:51 PM, Haboob said:

 

I'll let you argue with the government:

Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?

A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

I've never seen an animal, service or otherwise on a ship.  My only encounter with a "trained service animal" came through the experience of a close friend. The son of my friend has several disabilities and they got what they thought was a trained service animal. The dog had been through training and had the certifications/documents declaring it as a professionally trained service animal.  The dog destroyed it's crate, destroyed things in their house, left daily "presents" around the house and was a total disaster. They returned the dog.  

 

There are very well trained service animals; this obviously wasn't one.  My point is that just because a animal is designated a "trained service animal" doesn't mean it is well trained or actually providing a service. This was not a "comfort animal" but a "service animal."

[TNTLAMB]

8 hours ago, Globehoppers said:

 

 

I would suggest to both of you that cruising may not be something you really want to do because of your health.  I don't ride roller coasters because of a cracked vertebrae in my neck.  A jolt the wrong way could paralyze me.  Be true to yourself and courteous to others.  Especially if you have a medical condition that could require a specific emergency response which is generally not available onboard any cruise ship.

Sorry about the double post. I thought better of my first response. SO you know what about anyone's health condition beyond tha I said my granddaughter  had a service dog for her epilepsy. So according to you she can't cruise? She'd like to cruise but between being a Division 1scholarship athlete and an accelerated medical student 2 years from residency. She simply doesn't have time. Likely she will do research. Perhaps she will find a connection between ignorance and cracked vertebrae. Yeah I'm snarky. We raised her after her parents were killed in an accident and have put up with enough ignorance over her condition resulting from that accident that I just don't have the energy to educate the ignorant anymore.

[K.T.B.]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:05 AM, Mavis and Me said:

Honesty? 8 weeks of training is generally not NEAR enough to cover all the things that a service dog might encounter during its working career.  My dog went through 6 months, 4 - 5 days/week, of public access training before being ‘certified’ by an AKC 3rd party evaluator.  (Again, to be clear, there is no such thing as a certified service dog in the US.). Because I trained her myself I am always working to improve and reinforce that training by competing with her in obedience trials. To say that a dog MUST be trained by a professional  trainer to be a legitimate service dog is wrong. I’m not arguing that many task trained service dogs (i.e. real service dogs) could use better public access skills, because a lot of them could, but you shouldn’t clump all owner trained service dogs into the same category.  I’ve seen a lot of fantastically well behaved SDs who were owner trained!!!

 

Maybe not your dog, but for what my grandson needs, it was the appropriate amount of time.  Not every dog is trained to do the same thing.....

[nattie]

On 11/15/2019 at 10:56 PM, Ombud said:

Your link is for ESA letters yet the Princess site clearly states:

 

My bad, Ombud! Thank you for correcting. However, there are similar links for full on service animals

My point was that it is very easy to obtain "papers" for any dog and people are abusing the system.

[nattie]

On 11/17/2019 at 9:58 AM, Globehoppers said:

 

Illogical.  A true service dog is trained to sense "events" before they occur and provide warning.  "Hubby" service person cannot do that.  Agree the dogs deserve "time off" but that its a human consideration.  Most dogs, service or otherwise, prefer the company of their humans over everything else, except maybe eating. 

Speak of your own "hubby" service person! Mine is very well trained! (joking)

[Ombud]

Yes they are. Which makes many people sense that everyone (including those with real service dogs) is a scammer. Wish complete documentation (inc letter from MD detailing dx) was required b4 boarding anything. And let's dump service horses (loads of poop) / peacocks / snakes (I'm not afraid of them but some are) / everything else non-dog. Service dogs can be invaluable and I've personally never seen one that was misbehaving 

[SargassoPirate]

Saw this on the way into a restaurant recently:

[rugerdog]

54 minutes ago, SargassoPirate said:

Saw this on the way into a restaurant recently:

 

 

Perfect summation.  Would love to see this posted everywhere, including cruise line websites.

 

 

[Haboob]

2 hours ago, rugerdog said:

Perfect summation.  Would love to see this posted everywhere, including cruise line websites.

 

Would that it were so.  All it takes to make a dog a "true" service animal under the ADA is a statement by its owner that it is trained to do "x" to help him with a disability.

 

Rife for abuse.

 

From https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm Princess may *not*:

• ask about the nature or extent of an individual’s disability
• require proof that the animal has been certified, trained or licensed as a service animal
• require the animal to wear an identifying vest or tag
• ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the task or work

[Cruiser_1977]

I think a point a lot are missing is that whether a "true" service dog or a pet, if the animal shows aggression, relieves itself indoors, or otherwise is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it this can be cause to have the animal removed from the premises. PERIOD end of discussion. Also the dog "must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices". If you witness such behavior tell someone in a position of authority (e.g. security, an officer, etc. - not the person filling the buffet). Document with photos/videos if necessary and hold the offender (the owner) accountable. Until these people are taken to task via proper channels (not a confrontation in a Captain's Lounge or online) NOTHING is going to change.

[Reader0108598]

2 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

I think a point a lot are missing is that whether a "true" service dog or a pet, if the animal shows aggression, relieves itself indoors, or otherwise is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it this can be cause to have the animal removed from the premises. PERIOD end of discussion. Also the dog "must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices". If you witness such behavior tell someone in a position of authority (e.g. security, an officer, etc. - not the person filling the buffet). Document with photos/videos if necessary and hold the offender (the owner) accountable. Until these people are taken to task via proper channels (not a confrontation in a Captain's Lounge or online) NOTHING is going to change.

Excellent post!

Edited November 19, 2019 by Reader0108598

[rugerdog]

14 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

Until these people are taken to task via proper channels (not a confrontation in a Captain's Lounge or online) NOTHING is going to change.

 

100% agree.

[Mavis and Me]

6 hours ago, SargassoPirate said:

Saw this on the way into a restaurant recently:

LOVE THIS!!  It gets right to the point - 'fake' service dogs make life difficult for those who truly need them.  I wish there were more signs like this one out there!

[Mavis and Me]

3 hours ago, Haboob said:

Would that it were so.  All it takes to make a dog a "true" service animal under the ADA is a statement by its owner that it is trained to do "x" to help him with a disability.

 

Rife for abuse.

 

From https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm Princess may *not*:

• ask about the nature or extent of an individual’s disability
• require proof that the animal has been certified, trained or licensed as a service animal
• require the animal to wear an identifying vest or tag
• ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the task or work

True, true.  But the ADA DOES give businesses the right to ask that a service dog be removed from the property if it acts aggressively, or if it is uncontrolled without correction from the owner.  Also if the dog is not housebroke, they can be asked to leave.  If more businesses would ask barking, lunging, urine marking 'service' dogs to leave the store, it could go a long way towards discouraging those that try to fake their pets inside.  Not sure how that would go on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, though....  

[Mavis and Me]

2 hours ago, JennyB1977 said:

I think a point a lot are missing is that whether a "true" service dog or a pet, if the animal shows aggression, relieves itself indoors, or otherwise is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it this can be cause to have the animal removed from the premises. PERIOD end of discussion. Also the dog "must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices". If you witness such behavior tell someone in a position of authority (e.g. security, an officer, etc. - not the person filling the buffet). Document with photos/videos if necessary and hold the offender (the owner) accountable. Until these people are taken to task via proper channels (not a confrontation in a Captain's Lounge or online) NOTHING is going to change.

YES!!  THIS!!  

[PrincessLuver]

4 hours ago, Haboob said:

Would that it were so.  All it takes to make a dog a "true" service animal under the ADA is a statement by its owner that it is trained to do "x" to help him with a disability.

 

Rife for abuse.

 

From https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm Princess may *not*:

• ask about the nature or extent of an individual’s disability
• require proof that the animal has been certified, trained or licensed as a service animal
• require the animal to wear an identifying vest or tag
• ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the task or work

 

Not true....states are coming up with laws against identifying a animal as a service animal if it is not and making it a crime with stiff fines.

 

DOT  last year clarified rules for service animals on USA planes and transportation after an American Airlines FA was bitten.  I am sure cruise lines could use these guidelines too if they wanted.

 

• Airlines can require animal owners to provide documentation related to the animal's vaccination, training or behavior to determine whether an animal poses a threat to the health or safety of others. They can also require documentation for flights over eight hours related to an animal's bathroom habits but cannot have outright bans on animals on long flights. 
• Airlines can require animals within the cabin to be tethered.
• Airlines can require lobby check-in for emotional support animals. 
• Airlines can ask questions to determine a passenger's need for the animal, but must accept a current medical form or letter that meets DOT's criteria as medical documentation of their need. 
• Airlines can deny animals that are too large or too heavy to be in the cabin and can prohibit animals younger than four months. 

Bottom line it is still easy to tell who is using a "Fake ESA" and they seem to have no problem putting others at risk by their entitled and selfish attitudes.  Glad to see many different federal and state agencies starting to try and put a stop to this ridiculous abuse of a system.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by PrincessLuver