so maybe cruise ships are not petri dishes

[Dermotsgirl]

The first sailing of Mein Schiff 6 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/28/crew-first-post-lockdown-greek-cruise-contract-coronavirus-maltese

[CruiserBruce]

35 minutes ago, xDisconnections said:

I’d say so when anyone you see was coughing up a storm looking ill and notices were delivered to passengers with certain touch items removed from various areas of the ship. I didn’t know you were onboard.

Well...as coughing is not a symptom of noro...its a GI illness. 

[xDisconnections]

5 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Well...as coughing is not a symptom of noro...its a GI illness. 

Good thing I specifically mentioned nearly everyone was sick and not nearly everyone was experiencing noro symptoms. Sometimes comprehension isn’t there and not everyone reads the entire statement 😉 

Edited September 28, 2020 by xDisconnections

[2wheelin]

1 hour ago, xDisconnections said:

I’d say so when anyone you see was coughing up a storm looking ill and notices were delivered to passengers with certain touch items removed from various areas of the ship. I didn’t know you were onboard.

So, not joking.  But you weren’t “subjected to quarantine”? Anyone with a possibility of noro, same as Covid, should have the common sense to self quarantine without being ordered to. But wait! I mentioned common sense which is not all that common anymore.

[xDisconnections]

53 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

So, not joking.  But you weren’t “subjected to quarantine”? Anyone with a possibility of noro, same as Covid, should have the common sense to self quarantine without being ordered to. But wait! I mentioned common sense which is not all that common anymore.

Not everyone chooses to visit shipboard medical.

[clo]

14 hours ago, Tapi said:

avoid items that could be more prone to cause food poisoning.

Please share some of those.

[SelectSys]

8 hours ago, bigrednole said:

The media has an agenda. That agenda has financial implications. Whether it is to raise the value of pension funds, price for advertising, or whatever. This is why there is little to no truth in news now... Common sense and courtesy go along way.

 

To be honest, media has always had an agenda at least in the US.  From "pamphleters" of the revolutionary period all the way to today's "yellow journalists" at the likes of Fox and CNN, bias has been a mainstay of the news in the US.  The agenda may shift from time to time, but it is almost always there in some fashion.

 

My expectation is that other countries are the same. 

 

The only time bias is truly troubling is when only the state gets to decide "what is fit to print."

[dogs4fun]

17 minutes ago, clo said:

Please share some of those.

Some of which I am aware ...

poultry (e.g. campylobacter & salmonella bacterias) 

fish/shellfish (e.g. CFP & histamine)

leafy greens/veggies (e.g. salmonella, listeria, E. coli) - particularly worrisome are veggies, fruits & greens that are consumed raw

 

 

 

 

[Tapi]

31 minutes ago, clo said:

Please share some of those.

Things like leafy greens, deli meat, cut fruit, sprouts, eggs, etc are more prone to cause food poisoning if mishandled. While I may eat these from the restaurant, I won’t eat them from a buffet, where they may have been exposed at room temperature for an undetermined amount of time. If I get fruit from the buffet, I now avoid the cut one, even if it’s easier to eat. I’ll grab a full apple or banana, but that’s where I draw the line. Type “food that can cause food poisoning” on a google search and you should come across several articles concerning this topic.
 

I do know that, when I got sick on the Carnival Dream, I’m almost positive it came from cut honeydew melon.  I remember eating some, and thinking “this doesn’t taste right”, plus it had a slightly slimy feel. But stupid me, ate it anyway. My fault and I learned a huge lesson from that experience. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Tapi

[TNcruising02]

2 hours ago, fyree39 said:

TBH, your 15 cruises isn't all that many. Those who have cruised several times a year for the past 20 years, or those who go on world cruises every year, can recite plenty of "sick on the ship" stories.

That's true.  That's not a lot of cruising.  We did eat at the buffet everyday, which seems to be a place where a lot of people think  people can spread diseases.  The thing is, after I get my food I wash my hands with soap and water.  If there aren't any washing stations, I use hand sanitizer and try not to touch any food with my hands.  I do this every time right before I eat when on a cruise.

 I also will not stay seated near a person who is constantly coughing, whether in a lounge, theater, airport, or wherever.  I think there are steps people can take to minimize their chances of getting sick.  There are no guarantees, so I am ok with taking my risks and doing everything possible to control what I can. I have no worries at all about getting sick on a cruise ship.

Edited September 28, 2020 by TNcruising02

[2wheelin]

1 hour ago, xDisconnections said:

Not everyone chooses to visit shipboard medical.

What’s your point? If you are sick, stay away from people. Is that so hard to understand. I would guess most people who are sick when they know noro may be prevalent on the ship do not seek medical attention. There is nothing they can do for mild cases. But those people would be cavalier to leave their cabin.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, dogs4fun said:

Some of which I am aware ...

poultry (e.g. campylobacter & salmonella bacterias) 

fish/shellfish (e.g. CFP & histamine)

leafy greens/veggies (e.g. salmonella, listeria, E. coli) - particularly worrisome are veggies, fruits & greens that are consumed raw

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tapi said:

Things like leafy greens, deli meat, cut fruit, sprouts, eggs, etc are more prone to cause food poisoning if mishandled. While I may eat these from the restaurant, I won’t eat them from a buffet, where they may have been exposed at room temperature for an undetermined amount of time. If I get fruit from the buffet, I now avoid the cut one, even if it’s easier to eat. I’ll grab a full apple or banana, but that’s where I draw the line. Type “food that can cause food poisoning” on a google search and you should come across several articles concerning this topic.
 

I do know that, when I got sick on the Carnival Dream, I’m almost positive it came from cut honeydew melon.  I remember eating some, and thinking “this doesn’t taste right”, plus it had a slightly slimy feel. But stupid me, ate it anyway. My fault and I learned a huge lesson from that experience. 

All "ready to eat" food, like uncooked produce and fruits, must be sanitized before being placed out for service, typically in a 100ppm chlorine solution for 30 seconds.

 

All food on a buffet line is supposed to be on "time management".  If food is in something where the temperature can be controlled and monitored (oven, hot box), then it is on "temperature management", and can remain there as long as needed, provided the temperature is kept in the correct range (though the longer it is kept there, the worse the product becomes, aesthetic wise.  Once it is removed from these temperature controlled devices, it must go on "time management", which means that 4 hours after it is taken from temperature management, it must be discarded.  This is why you see the little color coded dot stickers on the pans and bowls in the buffet. Even food in the main galley, once it reaches the steam table where the dishes are plated, they go on time control, since a steam table cannot guarantee a temperature of product.

Edited September 28, 2020 by chengkp75

[Tapi]

34 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

All food on a buffet line is supposed to be on "time management"... 

 

Once it is removed from these temperature controlled devices, it must go on "time management", which means that 4 hours after it is taken from temperature management, it must be discarded. 

Thanks chengkp75 for the valuable information. I worked in the food industry in my younger years, and I’m familiar with the time management procedures. Unfortunately I’m also familiar with the fact that some employees would “stretch” that time in order to avoid the extra work of having to replace the expired items. I also witnessed managers deliberately changing the time stickers to avoid having to throw food in the garbage. 
 

I’m not by any means saying that these violations are the norm, or that any particular cruise line or business practices them, but I do know that it does happen. All it takes is one employee to create a hazardous situation for many unsuspecting customers.

 

Concerning fruits and vegetables all it takes once again is just one irresponsible, lazy,  or poorly trained employee who uses the same knife they used to cut raw chicken to then cut fruit or vegetables, or who skips steps like sanitizing in order to save time.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Tapi

[Hlitner]

16 hours ago, Debe7ing said:

 

So, we LOVE to cruise and have been on more then 60+....but here is my question (and yes, we have 5 more booked currently).....lets say they test you as NEG with the required testing before you get on the ship.....say you choose NOT to leave the ship for ANY shore excursions or time off the ship at all and then catch it....is it THEIR responsibility or YOURS????  Just would like to have an answer

 

There is a fallacy to your thinking.  Even a negative test before you board will not guarantee you are not already harboring the virus.  It takes several days (usually 3-5) after one is exposed to COVID before they would test positive on most tests.  Since some folks can take as long as 14 days (perhaps even longer) to show any symptoms one could bring the virus aboard and not show any sign of being sick for 2 weeks.  And this leads to the big problem with testing and temperature checks.  If one is exposed to COVID while on their way to the port there is currently no way that anyone would know until days after they board the ship.

 

Hank

[sanger727]

My response to this article is "yeah, right" 

 

3. "hyper-vigilant passengers" - are these the same passengers that so many people have seen walking out of the restroom without washing their hands, skipping the hand sanitizer at the buffet, and touching food with their bare hands and putting it back?

 

4. "Plenty of space to spread out" - sure, if you could get everyone on the ship to evenly space themselves over the ship, but that never happens. Afternoon everyone is crowded at the pool, evening everyone is crowded in lounges, waiting for MDR, or waiting for a show

 

7. "advanced patient screening" - while I do think there will be better screening, in the past it was a self-report health screening that anyone who was sick lied on

 

Minimal risk of spread and safer than ever?? People crowding together, in the elevators, touching the same railings and door handles will always carry the risk of spreading disease. 

[K32682]

22 hours ago, Dermotsgirl said:

The first sailing of Mein Schiff 6 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/28/crew-first-post-lockdown-greek-cruise-contract-coronavirus-maltese

 

There is a quite troubling passage in that article.

 

Quote

Greek media said all 922 of the ship’s passengers would be confined to their cabins for the duration of the journey.

 

However Tui, operating the luxury liner in conjunction with the US firm Royal Caribbean, denied that passengers were constricted in their movements. Sabine Lueke, a spokeswoman for Tui, said: “They can use the ship in the normal way. The cruise will go on as planned.”

 

 

If 12 crew were positive it is quite likely other crew members are infected but asymptomatic. Instead of isolating passengers and crew the cruise line is permitting them to intermingle which risks further infections.  It is idiotic and irresponsible.   

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by K32682

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

There is a quite troubling passage in that article.

 

 

If 12 crew were positive it is quite likely other crew members are infected but asymptomatic. Instead of isolating passengers and crew the cruise line is permitting them to intermingle which risks further infections.  It is idiotic and irresponsible.   

 

 

 

The story has proven inaccurate.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/09/28/covid-19-tui-cruise-12-crew-members-test-positive/3559971001/

While this is really good news I suspect there are lots of folks who are actually bummed out that it wasn't true.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

The story has proven inaccurate.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/09/28/covid-19-tui-cruise-12-crew-members-test-positive/3559971001/

While this is really good news I suspect there are lots of folks who are actually bummed out that it wasn't true.

I don't think there are too many who are "bummed out" that the tests were inaccurate, but it does worry me, and should worry many, that the tests have proven to be inaccurate.  This reflects on covid testing in general, but also the reliance on these tests to accurately reflect the health of the passengers and crew boarding a ship.

[K32682]

2 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

The story has proven inaccurate.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/09/28/covid-19-tui-cruise-12-crew-members-test-positive/3559971001/

While this is really good news I suspect there are lots of folks who are actually bummed out that it wasn't true.

 

The cruise line was not aware the tests were inaccurate when they let the passengers and crew mingle.  

[SelectSys]

2 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

The story has proven inaccurate.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/09/28/covid-19-tui-cruise-12-crew-members-test-positive/3559971001/

While this is really good news I suspect there are lots of folks who are actually bummed out that it wasn't true.

 

 

This passage from the article caught my eye:

 

"Dr. Robert H. Shmerling, senior faculty editor for Harvard Health Publishing, wrote that the rate of false-negative molecular tests (PCR) ranges from 2% to 37%. But false positives are more rare, and are likely in 5% of cases or less. "

 

If I was designing tests, I would want my false negative rate to be way below my false positive rate.  Gaining a false positive result and retesting seems to be the conservative way to design these tests. 

 

The way the text is written it seems the opposite is true where more false negatives exist and allow spread to continue.

[clo]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

but it does worry me, and should worry many, that the tests have proven to be inaccurate. 

Yes. And the false negatives could be a problem or the positives. I think we're a long way from having proven tests and cruising seems like one of the last things to resume.

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

the tests have proven to be inaccurate.  This reflects on covid testing in general, but also the reliance on these tests to accurately reflect the health of the passengers and crew boarding a ship.

 

I do know that tests are never perfect.  However, I don't know what is really considered a high quality test in terms of performance for a COVID-like diagnostic test.  Further, who knows how likely it is that the COVID tests we have can be improved significantly.  

 

This article discusses the subject of medical testing and some of its challenges.

https://www.healthnewsreview.org/toolkit/tips-for-understanding-studies/understanding-medical-tests-sensitivity-specificity-and-positive-predictive-value/

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

I do know that tests are never perfect.  However, I don't know what is really considered a high quality test in terms of performance for a COVID-like diagnostic test.  Further, who knows how likely it is that the COVID tests we have can be improved significantly.  

 

This article discusses the subject of medical testing and some of its challenges.

https://www.healthnewsreview.org/toolkit/tips-for-understanding-studies/understanding-medical-tests-sensitivity-specificity-and-positive-predictive-value/

Exactly.  I feel that we are still in the data collecting stage as far as testing reliability is concerned.  Yes, I understand the desire for quick results, but some things take very large data sets to get an accurate image of what is happening.

[clo]

53 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Exactly.  I feel that we are still in the data collecting stage as far as testing reliability is concerned.  Yes, I understand the desire for quick results, but some things take very large data sets to get an accurate image of what is happening.

Another exactly. We still have few answers to many questions. I don't think that cruising should restart at this time.

[Host Jazzbeau]

New article on Cruise Critic:

Double Testing Catches False Positives: Why You Shouldn't Panic Over COVID-19 Test Result News