Will Alaska Cruises Substitute Mexico for Canada When they Restart?

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

 

There are subject matter experts on board that could probably confirm the notion that maybe the PVSA detouring  does indeed cause cruiselines to expend more fuel by visiting a foreign port and this is a bona fide reason for lawmakers to consider a change and then usually one side or another side of the house gets on board.

 

 

No, I cannot confirm that notion.  Considering the nearest foreign cruise port to Miami is Freeport at 92 nautical miles, and some private islands in the Bahamas are about 140 nautical miles, what domestic route do you suggest to decrease distance?  Key West?  Nope.  That's 189 miles.  Like the Chief said, you really should do a bit of research before debating this topic.  

[JRG]

4 hours ago, SelectSys said:

Obviously.  Let's just stick to CO2 to make it easy.  

 

Okay,  so if one could prove that certain re-routing due to PVSA consumed excess gas

 

Then one would deduce that the PVSA contributes excess C02.   Small delta but still.

 

Its not my white whale and I'm not trying to Free Willy,    but I'm really more interested in the economic inequities (milkshake) theory created by the PVSA and I just stumbled on this thought in passing.   

 

It would be interesting to see some of the navigators on board compute the delta for the excess fuel consumption,  and then you should have a corresponding excess C02 estimate. 

 

****As for getting this thread back on course, 

 

****I'd like see to a round-trip from San Diego or LA to goes to the Sea of Cortez and back.  I have never sailed there and I would be ok trying an itinerary that for us,   is a drive-to-port slam dunk.    

 

For the drive-to-port market,   I think this would be a good choice.

 

p.s.  the Maasdam just wouldn't cut it for us.

 

 

 

 

[Shmoo here]

15 minutes ago, JRG said:

****I'd like see to a round-trip from San Diego or LA to goes to the Sea of Cortez and back. 

We did this on Princess 3 years ago.

[d9704011]

52 minutes ago, JRG said:

****As for getting this thread back on course, 

 

****I'd like see to a round-trip from San Diego or LA to goes to the Sea of Cortez and back.  I have never sailed there and I would be ok trying an itinerary that for us,   is a drive-to-port slam dunk.    

How does a Sea of Cortez cruise get this thread back on track?  How are you planning to get to Alaska by doing that and where will you be stopping?

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, d9704011 said:

How does a Sea of Cortez cruise get this thread back on track?  How are you planning to get to Alaska by doing that and where will you be stopping?

Gee, and a Sea of Cortez cruise could stop at a foreign port, like Ensenada, Cabo, and Mazatlan, and meet the requirements of the PVSA without burning any extra fuel.  SMH

[Cruzaholic41]

3 hours ago, JRG said:

***I'd like see to a round-trip from San Diego or LA to goes to the Sea of Cortez and back.  I have never sailed there and I would be ok trying an itinerary that for us,   is a drive-to-port slam dunk.    

 

For the drive-to-port market,   I think this would be a good choice.

 

p.s.  the Maasdam just wouldn't cut it for us.

You mean just go cruise around the Sea of Cortez, or hit or port or 2 while down there. Carnival has numerous 2-8 night cruises doing just that. 
 

And don’t worry. HAL got rid of Maasdam. 
 

Gotta say though - your posts are getting more and more bizarre. 

[JRG]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Gee, and a Sea of Cortez cruise could stop at a foreign port, like Ensenada, Cabo, and Mazatlan, and meet the requirements of the PVSA without burning any extra fuel.  SMH

 

I changed horses in mid-stream.   It is a different subject but yet similar in that we are talking about solutions thrust upon us by the Covid thing.   

 

I ponied up my original idea a few months ago,  and then one of the PVSA opposition task force trampled on it the style which has become the pattern.

 

How are you going to account for the Brian Williams moment.   It seems to me that the Cruise Community has a reason to wonder why you purposely misled the readers and then bragged about the 50% labor component, when defending your point of view that the FEARS of CLIA are something that we should be worried about.   You are fearing the fear,  which is what FDR said not to do.

 

It is not the singularity of admitting that you were dishonest on one post,  but it is the same question that CC posters bring up time and time again,  and you have used the same argument.   We now come to find out that it has been an 'empty' argument' and I think that perhaps you should recuse yourself from these threads.

 

Opposing discussion using the this technique amounts to propaganda,  and this stymies a US posters constitutional right to free speech.

 

If you think this is bizarre then you understand why I do not respond to posts that try to insult.  I'll stand by my principle but I will listen to reasonable arguments and respond If  feel you are genuinely trying to have a discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by JRG

[ilikeanswers]

Maybe Alaska will just have to readjust their tourism industry from mass market to high end exclusive or expedition style cruising. There are plenty of tourism destinations that do well out of more niche style tourism. Not every place has to be a mass market destination in order to be profitable and from what I have read about how Alaska cruise industry works sounds like a lot of those towns are getting a raw deal anyway. Instead of trying so hard to preserve the old system maybe some change could be good for Alaska🤔. 

[Hlitner]

Come on folks, the topic is interesting and relevant but there is no reason personal attacks.  I think we need to respect each other's opinions and accept that it is fine to have a different point of view.  The last thing we need is a "cancel culture" here on CC CC.   There are quite a few different issues mixed into this one topic.  1.  When will AK even reopen to tourism and cruise ships?  2.  When will Canada reopen to cruise ships?  3.  If you assume that, by the 2021 AK season, the US reopens and Canada does not then there will be a problem with AK cruises.  4.  In such a case US government (one could argue over which agency) could elect to grant a temporary waiver of PVSA restrictions so that cruises could temporarily operate directly between lower 48 and AK.  5.  Another option would be for Congress to amend the PVSA, but this is less likely to happen and would likely not be done in time for next season (Congress does not work that fast).

 

As to Mexico, that is entirely different issue then AK!  I think some of the posts show a lack of appreciation for the distance from Northern Mexico to Alaska but such a routing would only work for longer cruises (probably at least 14 days) which does not work well for the AK cruise market which is primarily 7-10 day cruises.

 

I will toss out my own updated personal opinion.  The future of the cruise industry is very dependent on the availability of a safe/effective COVID vaccine.  If such a vaccine is approved and in wide distribution by the summer of 2021, there is every reason to think that the AK cruise season will quickly get back to normal with both Vancouver and Victoria reopening to cruises.  Lacking such a vaccine there may not be any AK cruise season since the State of AK may well decide to reject any cruises into their State.

 

Hank

[Cruzaholic41]

3 hours ago, JRG said:

 

I changed horses in mid-stream.   It is a different subject but yet similar in that we are talking about solutions thrust upon us by the Covid thing.   

 

I ponied up my original idea a few months ago,  and then one of the PVSA opposition task force trampled on it the style which has become the pattern.

 

How are you going to account for the Brian Williams moment.   It seems to me that the Cruise Community has a reason to wonder why you purposely misled the readers and then bragged about the 50% labor component, when defending your point of view that the FEARS of CLIA are something that we should be worried about.   You are fearing the fear,  which is what FDR said not to do.

 

It is not the singularity of admitting that you were dishonest on one post,  but it is the same question that CC posters bring up time and time again,  and you have used the same argument.   We now come to find out that it has been an 'empty' argument' and I think that perhaps you should recuse yourself from these threads.

 

Opposing discussion using the this technique amounts to propaganda,  and this stymies a US posters constitutional right to free speech.

 

If you think this is bizarre then you understand why I do not respond to posts that try to insult.  I'll stand by my principle but I will listen to reasonable arguments and respond If  feel you are genuinely trying to have a discussion.

 

I’ve given up trying to understand what you’re even trying to say anymore.  It’s obvious you just can’t handle when people disagree with you. Perhaps you should step away from social media. 

[d9704011]

4 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

I’ve given up trying to understand what you’re even trying to say anymore.  It’s obvious you just can’t handle when people disagree with you. Perhaps you should step away from social media. 

I agree with you but you have to admit that you don’t often see words such as singularity and stymie in a CC thread.

[katrina915]

Sorry, I don't have the link but I thought the Alaska US Reps were looking into changing the rule so that a stop in Canada wouldn't be necessary.  Anyone know the details on this? 

[CruiserBruce]

34 minutes ago, katrina915 said:

Sorry, I don't have the link but I thought the Alaska US Reps were looking into changing the rule so that a stop in Canada wouldn't be necessary.  Anyone know the details on this? 

All it takes is a Google search, or a look around the boards:

 

https://www.alaskajournal.com/2020-10-21/young-pitches-jones-act-waiver-aid-cruise-ships

[Shmoo here]

31 minutes ago, katrina915 said:

Sorry, I don't have the link but I thought the Alaska US Reps were looking into changing the rule so that a stop in Canada wouldn't be necessary.  Anyone know the details on this? 

It's not a "rule".  It's a law.  Changing the law takes time.  And the desire by a majority to change it.

 

As noted, any changes to the law would be because of national security.  Not just because people want to cruise.

 

This is part of the PVSA:

 

WAIVERS OF THE NAVIGATION LAWS

The navigation laws, including the PVSA, can only be waived by the Secretary of Homeland Security if certain requirements are met:

• The transportation requested must be “necessary in the interest of national defense,” and

• If the waiver is requested under Section 501(b), the Maritime Administration at the Department of Transportation has confirmed that there are no coastwise-qualified vessels available to conduct the transportation. 43

 

A request to waive the PVSA should be submitted prior to the proposed transportation, i.e., embarkation of passengers. CBP strongly encourages potential requesters to contact the Maritime Administration prior to submitting a request to determine if there are any coastwise-qualified vessels available to conduct the transportation sought.

 

 

[Shmoo here]

4 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

All it takes is a Google search, or a look around the boards:

 

https://www.alaskajournal.com/2020-10-21/young-pitches-jones-act-waiver-aid-cruise-ships

He's asking for a Jones Act waiver for cruise ships?

 

 

[njhorseman]

32 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

He's asking for a Jones Act waiver for cruise ships?

 

 

 It's not uncommon for travel agents and even cruise line employees to confuse the PVSA with the Jones Act, so a politician confusing the two doesn't surprise me in the least.

[JRG]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I think some of the posts show a lack of appreciation for the distance from Northern Mexico to Alaska but such a routing would only work for longer cruises (probably at least 14 days) which does not work well for the AK cruise market which is primarily 7-10 day cruises.

 

I think I blew it here its my bad.  No I did not mean to go from Alaska to the Sea of Cortez, that is not feasible,  I was actually thinking about Cruise to Nowhere options from LA at the time and I realize now its a different thread..   Truth be told,  I am also working on the lead guitar solo for my favorite Jethro Tull song,   and the buildup in dynamic range brings the adrenaline level way up.   If I happen to get on line and start posting I can get a little ramped up on topics which I'm thinking about at the time.   I do multi-task when I'm playing.

 

You are kind to phrase it that way and I hope you see what I mean.   

 

It was a few weeks or months ago in a similar thread I posed the thought of LA to Alaska round-trip and or b2b's which did not require the PVSA detour.   

 

 I'd truly like to know the feasibility of LA to Alaska destinations that do not stop at Victoria or Vancouver and whether they can be done in 7 days or 10 days, because I think that drives to the heart of the OP's thread.

 

Your outlined issues on this thread I would summarily agree with btw.

 

The one exception might be and I hope I am wrong is that we might be stuck in Plan B with no effective Vaccine and these ships need to get moving.

 

Cruiselines need to plan for that and I think all options are on the table.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, Shmoo here said:

He's asking for a Jones Act waiver for cruise ships?

 

 

Sounds like it. As mentioned in the thread I pulled that from, there seems some confusion as to exactly what could happen, but generally,  yes, a Congressman is asking for a waiver to help Alaska.

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, katrina915 said:

Sorry, I don't have the link but I thought the Alaska US Reps were looking into changing the rule so that a stop in Canada wouldn't be necessary.  Anyone know the details on this? 

 

I hope not.  I still have a problem with a business being allowed to operate on American "soil", so do speak, and not be subject to American wage/hour laws.  If this kind of change is proposed, I hope that aspect is considered.   

[Shmoo here]

31 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

I think I blew it here its my bad.  No I did not mean to go from Alaska to the Sea of Cortez, that is not feasible,  I was actually thinking about Cruise to Nowhere options from LA at the time and I realize now its a different thread..   Truth be told,  I am also working on the lead guitar solo for my favorite Jethro Tull song,   and the buildup in dynamic range brings the adrenaline level way up.   If I happen to get on line and start posting I can get a little ramped up on topics which I'm thinking about at the time.   I do multi-task when I'm playing.

 

You are kind to phrase it that way and I hope you see what I mean.   

 

It was a few weeks or months ago in a similar thread I posed the thought of LA to Alaska round-trip and or b2b's which did not require the PVSA detour.   

 

 I'd truly like to know the feasibility of LA to Alaska destinations that do not stop at Victoria or Vancouver and whether they can be done in 7 days or 10 days, because I think that drives to the heart of the OP's thread.

 

Your outlined issues on this thread I would summarily agree with btw.

 

The one exception might be and I hope I am wrong is that we might be stuck in Plan B with no effective Vaccine and these ships need to get moving.

 

Cruiselines need to plan for that and I think all options are on the table.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, for starters the ban on Cruises to no where are not part of the PVSA.  That has to do with a court ruling on a CBP case relating to the crew onboard requiring different work visas to work on a cruise to no where.  

 

The only LA to Alaska cruises that would not violate the PVSA would have to to include a stop in a distant foreign port.  And on the west coast, there are not any within a day's sailing.

 

 

[JRG]

22 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

We did this on Princess 3 years ago.

 

Thank you for mentioning these Princess Cruises to the Sea of Cortez because you are correct and I appreciate your input.

 

I'll share what I know.

 

I've known about them and I just checked the schedules for my own information and pricing is actually pretty attractive assuming those 2021 cruises go as planed.

 

I also looked at all of the Princess Cruises that sail of SoCal (the drive-to-port market) to make sure I was up to date on the current offerings.

 

As I said,  I AGREE with you,  but If I could ask you to put a red-line thru ALL of the ENSENADA stops on all of these really nicely priced sailings out of this market,   "Don't you think this would be a nice upgrade, to not have to stop in ENSENADA.   Remember though,  I went to colllege down here so Papas n' Beer was a drive away for us and Lobster was all you can eat.   It is difficult to find a good reason for the average joe cruise to have to stop in Ensenada.

 

So even though it is a small point,  I would like to see more offerings like what Princess is doing,  although 86 the stop in Ensenada.   

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by JRG

[JRG]

2 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

Well, for starters the ban on Cruises to no where are not part of the PVSA. 

 

we just crossed paths,  I believe I edited that and qualified my change.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

I hope not.  I still have a problem with a business being allowed to operate on American "soil", so do speak, and not be subject to American wage/hour laws.  If this kind of change is proposed, I hope that aspect is considered.   

 

Same here.  Much of what I have posted so far has been simple fact.  However, in my opinion, I do not like the idea of foreign corporations operating foreign flagged ships full of mostly foreign crew operating in exclusive US commerce, all the while skirting US tax, safety, labor and wage laws.  

Edited October 25, 2020 by Aquahound

[Toofarfromthesea]

51 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Same here.  Much of what I have posted so far has been simple fact.  However, in my opinion, I do not like the idea of foreign corporations operating foreign flagged ships full of mostly foreign crew operating in exclusive US commerce, all the while skirting US tax, safety, labor and wage laws.  

 

Me?  I like the idea of not paying twice as much for a cruise.

 

But a couple of nits.  They are not, by and large, foreign corporations.  And relatively few cruises are in exclusive US commerce.

[njhorseman]

46 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Me?  I like the idea of not paying twice as much for a cruise.

 

But a couple of nits.  They are not, by and large, foreign corporations.  And relatively few cruises are in exclusive US commerce.

Although their stocks are traded on US exchanges and their corporate headquarters are in the US the Big Three  are foreign corporations . That's how they avoid paying US corporate income tax. Carnival Corp and plc is incorporated in Panama and England, NCLH is incorporated in Bermuda and Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. is incorporated in Liberia.

Edited October 25, 2020 by njhorseman