Great Barrington Declaration, lets get back to Cruising!!

[A&L_Ont]

5 hours ago, compman9 said:

 

Can you direct me to the official governmental quotes on that please

 

As they have been the only successful country in the western hemisphere in their handling of this virus, this would be a massive shock if your claim was true

Be prepared to be shocked as your version of “success” and their nation’s version are clearly different.  
 

In early June Sweden’s state epidemiologist who was in charge of the country's response to Covid-19 says he would have taken a different approach had they known the full effect/strengths of Covid. They would have handled it differently to have prevented deaths of the aged in long term care as they were unable to keep Covid out of facilities. They also didn’t like how they were banned from entering neighboring countries. 
 

Just a couple of the links I found by searching on the words “Sweden Covid Sorry”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52903717

 

https://www.ft.com/content/dae6d006-9adc-46d5-9b4e-79a7841022e8

 

https://www.dw.com/en/architect-of-swedens-coronavirus-approach-admits-shortcoming/a-53672606

 

 

 

 

[A&L_Ont]

duplicate post

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by A&L_Ont

[Ourusualbeach]

1 hour ago, A&L_Ont said:

Be prepared to be shocked as your version of “success” and their nation’s version are clearly different.  
 

In early June Sweden’s state epidemiologist who was in charge of the country's response to Covid-19 says he would have taken a different approach had they known the full effect/strengths of Covid. They would have handled it differently to have prevented deaths of the aged in long term care as they were unable to keep Covid out of facilities. They also didn’t like how they were banned from entering neighboring countries. 
 

Just a couple of the links I found by searching on the words “Sweden Covid Sorry”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52903717

 

https://www.ft.com/content/dae6d006-9adc-46d5-9b4e-79a7841022e8

 

https://www.dw.com/en/architect-of-swedens-coronavirus-approach-admits-shortcoming/a-53672606

 

 

 

 

And yet Sweden’s death rate per capital was less than both Italy and the UK 

[broberts]

3 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

There's a huge difference in the numbers and to say there is not makes me think your deliberately trying to distort the conversation or you simply do not understand what you are talking about

 

2.7% equates to a projected figure of 5 million plus deaths

0.067%  equates to a projected figure of just under 2 million.

 

And both of these figures are based on worst case scenario without a vaccine.

 

Every single death is a grievous loss

 

 

Apparently we are talking with different contexts. The constant suggestion that I am being dishonest has no basis and is insulting. There is little point in attempting a discussion with those that insist on believing the worst of motives. (Although it does make one wonder if projection is the cause.)

 

221,000 deaths is obscene. More than 1,000,000 is genocide. Arguing the amplitude of genocide is pointless.

[Biker19]

3 hours ago, broberts said:

221,000 deaths is obscene. More than 1,000,000 is genocide.

Biker, who wonders when someone will post something like that as a thread title - that would get some clicks.

[yogimax]

11 hours ago, compman9 said:

As they have been the only successful country in the western hemisphere in their handling of this virus, this would be a massive shock if your claim was true

Can you and others please stop this Sweden nonsense.  It's simply a lie and a dangerous one at that!

 

"As of Oct. 13, Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world,"

 

[S.A.M.J.R.]

5 minutes ago, yogimax said:

Can you and others please stop this Sweden nonsense.  It's simply a lie and a dangerous one at that!

 

"As of Oct. 13, Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world,"

 

In his defense, the US is at 67.3/100K.  The UK at 63.9, and Spain and Brazil at 71.  I used the worldometers site, which shows deaths per capita. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

I don't think you can compare the US (or those other countries) and Sweden and say Sweden was worse off. 

[HBE4]

5 hours ago, Ourusualbeach said:

And yet Sweden’s death rate per capital was less than both Italy and the UK 

 

Density matters.

 

UK=725 people per sq mile.

Italy = 200 people per mile.

Sweden = 23 people per sq mile.

 

The fact that Sweden's numbers are only slightly better than Italy with 1/10 the population density is not very good.

 

5 minutes ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

In his defense, the US is at 67.3/100K.  The UK at 63.9, and Spain and Brazil at 71.  I used the worldometers site, which shows deaths per capita. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

I don't think you can compare the US (or those other countries) and Sweden and say Sweden was worse off. 

 

I would compare Sweden (58.5) to it's Nordic neighbors of Norway (5.1), Finland (6.3) and Denmark (11.7) and say they are worse off.

 

 

[Billy Baltic]

Irrespective of the numbers, you can’t compare different cultural norms. Even if Sweden does have low numbers (and I don’t believe they do) they have a very different culture to the Mediterranean countries for example. 
A good friend of mine lives in Sweden and we talk regularly. During the initial surge in Spring I asked him how the ‘advised’ changes had impacted them. He said they didn’t really. People rarely socialise in each other’s houses. At weekends they go to their country cabin. People are courteous and friendly but more distant than in Ireland. 
Compare that to France or Italy where people greet each other with a cheek kiss or hug. During the early spread they struggled to get people to stop doing this, especially older people. 
Since we have to live with Covid for some time, I believe each country has to adopt whatever suits them best, to balance the needs of their vulnerable and their economy. 

 

[Ourusualbeach]

57 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

 

Density matters.

 

UK=725 people per sq mile.

Italy = 200 people per mile.

Sweden = 23 people per sq mile.

 

The fact that Sweden's numbers are only slightly better than Italy with 1/10 the population density is not very good.

 

 

I would compare Sweden (58.5) to it's Nordic neighbors of Norway (5.1), Finland (6.3) and Denmark (11.7) and say they are worse off.

 

 

Thanks for the additional figures.

[yogimax]

1 hour ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

In his defense, the US is at 67.3/100K.  The UK at 63.9, and Spain and Brazil at 71.  I used the worldometers site, which shows deaths per capita. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

I don't think you can compare the US (or those other countries) and Sweden and say Sweden was worse off. 

The "I love Sweden" folk claim that by not doing anything at the beginning they were successful.  That is simply not true.  To repeat, according to well respected John Hopkins, Sweden is the 12th worst in the world.

[CT Sean]

Sweden doesn't even claim Sweden was successful

 

Some stats I compiled for some other post somewhere that was also trying to sell the falsehood that "Sweden did well"

 

Sweden’s cases have been going up since then end of August.

Sweden has twice the population of Norway.

Sweden has 7 times the total cases of Norway

Sweden has 20 times the number of deaths of Norway

Sweden has 250 covid deaths since the end of June

Norway had 25 for the same time period

Any argument that Sweden was successful is effectively pro-virus

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

[Lou33]

 

Why are so many people are praising Sweden's COVID response?  Just click on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/, and click the top column of "deaths/1M population".  The statistic that really matters is how many people die.  USA is 10th worst, but Sweden close at 15th worst.   Scroll way down and see how Japan, New Zealand, Norway, even Germany are doing.  If you want to find a country that is doing something right, why not start there instead?

 

Now click on top of the "new deaths" column.  USA leads the field with 903 new deaths (equivalent to five 737 airliner crashes every day).  Japan has 4.  South Korea has 2.  Canada has 23.  Australia has 0.  Speaking of Australia, the recent super spreader event at the White House resulted in more infections there, than in the entire country of Australia on that particular day.   

 

Until recently, many European countries "had" been doing very well.  But when they start opening the bars and nightclubs again, they are feeding the virus.  

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Lou33

[chipmaster]

7 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

In his defense, the US is at 67.3/100K.  The UK at 63.9, and Spain and Brazil at 71.  I used the worldometers site, which shows deaths per capita. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

I don't think you can compare the US (or those other countries) and Sweden and say Sweden was worse off. 

 

How sad we are comparing and calling this not bad, your prospective will change if it by next year a neighbor, co-worker, family member is among the needless deceased. 

[compman9]

5 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

How sad we are comparing and calling this not bad, your prospective will change if it by next year a neighbor, co-worker, family member is among the needless deceased. 

 

There is an approximately 99.5% chance your co-worker would survive corona virus

 

In the UK, less than 400 people of working age have died that did not have underlying health issues, and yet, cancer patients are dying because they were unable to get treatment, suicide rates are sky-rocketing and thousands of jobs are being lost daily

 

People have lost all perspective

[Billy Baltic]

1 hour ago, compman9 said:

that did not have underlying health issues,

And what of those people? From what I’ve seen the list of conditions and criteria that makes someone vulnerable is sizeable. Prominent among those is obesity. Do we write those people off? Or diabetics? Or people on immunosuppressants to treat other conditions. 
 

I agree that cancer services need to continue but that’s the challenge that need to be overcome. Not just abandoning swaths of the population who are vulnerable to coronavirus.  

[compman9]

1 hour ago, Billy Baltic said:

And what of those people? From what I’ve seen the list of conditions and criteria that makes someone vulnerable is sizeable. Prominent among those is obesity. Do we write those people off? Or diabetics? Or people on immunosuppressants to treat other conditions. 
 

I agree that cancer services need to continue but that’s the challenge that need to be overcome. Not just abandoning swaths of the population who are vulnerable to coronavirus.  

 

No, the opposite.

 

Educate people of the causes of mortality from Covid.

Help and shield the most vulnerable.

 

Let everyone else go about their lives.

 

The UK has 5.5million people over 70 - If each had been given £50k to stay indoors, it would have cost less than the debt the country has piled up.

 

Total madness has infected the western world.

 

[Billy Baltic]

7 minutes ago, compman9 said:

 

No, the opposite.

 

Educate people of the causes of mortality from Covid.

Help and shield the most vulnerable.

 

Let everyone else go about their lives.

 

The UK has 5.5million people over 70 - If each had been given £50k to stay indoors, it would have cost less than the debt the country has piled up.

 

Total madness has infected the western world.

 

And what would the total number of vulnerable people be?

In Ireland, it’s estimated at 1m people. Around 20% of the population. It’s not possible to put all those in a bubble. They are our work colleagues, our brothers, sisters, children.
 

[Bloodgem]

1 hour ago, compman9 said:

 

No, the opposite.

 

Educate people of the causes of mortality from Covid.

Help and shield the most vulnerable.

 

Let everyone else go about their lives.

 

The UK has 5.5million people over 70 - If each had been given £50k to stay indoors, it would have cost less than the debt the country has piled up.

 

Total madness has infected the western world.

 

How long do you expect them to stay indoors shielding?

Also what is the cost to their mental health? People have committed suicide because they could not cope with being alone whilst in lockdown. 

 

[S.A.M.J.R.]

10 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

How sad we are comparing and calling this not bad, your prospective will change if it by next year a neighbor, co-worker, family member is among the needless deceased. 

um, go back to my post and please show where I said this is "not bad".  Never said that or hinted at it. 

[S.A.M.J.R.]

17 hours ago, yogimax said:

The "I love Sweden" folk claim that by not doing anything at the beginning they were successful.  That is simply not true.  To repeat, according to well respected John Hopkins, Sweden is the 12th worst in the world.

And when you determine who is "best" or "worst", what metric are you judging by?  In deaths per capita, Sweden actually did better than the US (but not by much).  That's my point, not that Sweden had the right approach, but compared to the US (with all of the lockdowns, which I actually supported), they did about the same. 

[cruiser52forever]

13 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

How sad we are comparing and calling this not bad, your prospective will change if it by next year a neighbor, co-worker, family member is among the needless deceased. 

I have never posted, but I have to respond to this.  I had (keyword is had) a beautiful loving aunt whom I was very close to.  Closer to her than my own mother.   She lived several states away. My son and I  were scheduled to visit her on spring break this year. We canceled due to covid.  She begged us to come, but i said we had to protect her.  She had two great grandchildren born during this that she only got to see through a window, didn't get to hold them or kiss them.  Guess what....SHE DIED ANYWAYS.   She didn't have covid, but she still died.   We didn't get one last hug, one last kiss, one last smile.  Quarantining did nothing for our family except cause much grief.  If I could do this all over again, you can bet I would have been there for spring break to get my last hug, my last kiss, my last smile.  Covid isn't the only thing people die from.  

[CT Sean]

14 hours ago, Lou33 said:

 

Why are so many people are praising Sweden's COVID response?  Just click on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/, and click the top column of "deaths/1M population". 

 

This was maybe rhetorical, but if not, the reason is simple - confirmation bias.  People want to believe they don't have to do anything and the pandemic will just go away.  They ignore giant piles of evidence for the effectiveness mask use and social distancing and temporary lockdowns because it doesn't agree with their feeling that they shouldn't have to do anything to help minimize the outbreak. In the US this is of course compounded by the fact that the use of masks has been successfully politicized and wearing one is somehow unpatriotic.   They hear or read about Sweden and "herd immunity" and that's all they need to be convinced they are right.  They certainly aren't looking at Sweden's actual data  - it's not possible to conclude they took the right approach from the actual data

[shutterbug63]

This declaration is complete bunk.  A lot of people would have to die. We cannot know if herd  immunity is achievable because no one knows how long immunity to coronavirus lasts.  We also don't know about the long term effects of coronavirus. I'm not willing to take those kind of chances with my life, my family's life, or the life of others in my community.

[chipmaster]

On 10/15/2020 at 11:52 AM, broberts said:

 

Exactly. Abandoning mask wearing, social distancing, hand washing, and contact minimization is not the way to go. But the GBD suggests an approach that is not physically or economically feasible.

 

Studies of the great flue pandemic has shown every city that embraced containment versus economy was far stronger economically after the pandemic passed then the cities that embraced the economy over the flu.   In those days each city was more like a country how transportation and economy work.

 

If anything science and history can tell us about the past, but the future is murkier, but wishing for things w/o understanding the lesson of the past is plain stupidity.