Mandatory vaccination

[coffeebean]

11 hours ago, teacherman said:

This all "officially" began last March.  The government brought out some scientists who were VERY respected in world-wide scientific communities and had spent MANY years tracking and trying to eliminate viral outbreaks both in our country and other countries.  These people told us 2 things that stick in my mind.  The first was that this outbreak would probably last approximately 12 to 18 months.  We are currently at 12 months.  They also said ( and people didn't believe this) that IF WE DID EVERYTHING CORRECTLY, we would still probably have about 200,000 people die from complications of this outbreak.  Today, we are at over 500,000, so I guess we have NOT DONE EVERYTHING CORRECTLY.  And we are still debating whether wearing a mask can help.  Hard to believe.

That is exactly what I thought too. Having Universal Masking debates at this stage of the game is quite concerning. This is why the US has not fared well at all in this pandemic.

[coffeebean]

12 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

What an absurd analogy.

 

BTW,  you'll have nothing to fear from catching the virus from me.  My second pfizer shot is in two weeks.  

I hope you are right about that but the science has not yet been determined if vaccinated people are not contagious if they contract the virus. I'm waiting patiently for the testing to be completed and the data to be released to see if vaccinated people can really ditch the masks. I'm fully vaccinated but I will continue to mask to protect the folks that have not been vaccinated yet but are clamoring to get their shots. All in good time and I'm encouraged by the data coming out of Israel.

[coffeebean]

11 hours ago, teacherman said:

Most people would agree that wearing 2 masks is better than wearing 1 mask.  So, if you wear 1 and I wear 1, then that is 2 masks.  Simple.  (Just like having a seatbelt and an air bag).  Two layers of protection.  Socially distance and now we have three layers of protection.  Get vaccinated, and we have 4 layers of protection.  That is probably enough layers.  But if someone does not want to participate in one of the layers, then we lose a layer somewhere.

Kudos to you. LOVE what you said.

[RocketMan275]

7 hours ago, coffeebean said:

I hope you are right about that but the science has not yet been determined if vaccinated people are not contagious if they contract the virus. I'm waiting patiently for the testing to be completed and the data to be released to see if vaccinated people can really ditch the masks. I'm fully vaccinated but I will continue to mask to protect the folks that have not been vaccinated yet but are clamoring to get their shots. All in good time and I'm encouraged by the data coming out of Israel.

While it's not truly established, the emerging science is that vaccination does curb the spread of the virus:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-vaccines-may-decrease-spread-of-covid-lower-viral-load-2021-2

 

Quoting: 

Dr. Anthony Fauci says there's new evidence that a COVID-19 vaccine may not just protect the people who get it but also shield others whom they come in contact with.

"There have been some studies that are pointing into a very favorable direction," Fauci, the director of the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said on Wednesday during a White House COVID-19 briefing.

End Quotation.

 

This debate should be fairly well resolved by the time CDC permits cruising to begin again.  Until then, my position remains, I will take a cruise that requires 100% vaccination.  I will not take a cruise that requires masking.   

 

It's a tough sell to convince people they have to continue the virus mitigation strategies even after vaccination. That only raises the question of why get the vaccine.  

 

 

[JamieLogical]

There is simply not enough data yet on whether vaccinated people can spread the virus or to what extent they spread the virus. Of the vaccines with EUAs in the US, only the J&J vaccine looked at that at all and that data was not part of the EUA, so we still don't have a very complete picture from them. So far, what data we have been seeing is looking good, so that is encouraging, but studies will need to be completed before the CDC is going to be recommending removal of mask mandates.

[ziggyuk]

22 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

That makes no sense.  How does a mask on me protect  you when a mask on you doesn't?

The whole concept of wearing a mask to protect others is only a narrative designed to shame everyone to wear a mask and has no basis in physics or engineering.

 

This attitude from some is the very reason the west can't control the virus, too many people are selfish, have no consideration for others and are only concerned with themselves & their benefits.

In East Asia the moment anyone feels ill they put a mask on to protect other, the first consideration is to protect others, no self, self, self.

 

It's strange that everyone and their dog has an excuse why they are exempt from mask wearing, they buy lanyards on eBay and claim they can't breath with a mask, yet in East Asia you won't find anyone without a mask (including children).

This self-entitled, me, me, me attitude is the disease of the West.

[ziggyuk]

Deleted Duplicate

Edited March 6, 2021 by ziggyuk

[RocketMan275]

53 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

This attitude from some is the very reason the west can't control the virus, too many people are selfish, have no consideration for others and are only concerned with themselves & their benefits.

In East Asia the moment anyone feels ill they put a mask on to protect other, the first consideration is to protect others, no self, self, self.

 

It's strange that everyone and their dog has an excuse why they are exempt from mask wearing, they buy lanyards on eBay and claim they can't breath with a mask, yet in East Asia you won't find anyone without a mask (including children).

This self-entitled, me, me, me attitude is the disease of the West.

I agree with you and the East Asians who put on a mask once they feel ill.  That isn't a 'self, self, self' approach.  What is a 'self, self, self' approach is demanding that everyone wear a mask to protect yourself.  

[toocruisin2]

Hey all, one bit of positive news for NYers; Governor Cuomo had fairly strict travel restrictions in place for people leaving and entering NY State.

 

Yesterday the travel restrictions were loosened in that people who are fully vaccinated can travel in and out of NYS without the need to show a negative test and or quarantine.

 

Hopefully as post-vaccine data is accumulated, those vaccinated can travel in and out of the USA without severe restrictions; I hope that would make cruising a possibility for us this year. I hope 😃

[ywc89]

My family and I will definitely get vaccinated before cruising. I’d want vaccinations to be mandatory for all cruisers except possibly babies because I don’t want my cruise to get quarantined due to other unvaccinated passengers causing an outbreak.

[hallux]

2 hours ago, ziggyuk said:

This self-entitled, me, me, me attitude is the disease of the West.

I've been saying this for a while - that until either COVID goes away, the US is fully vaccinated or the citizens drop the "me, me and only me" attitude there will be no cruising from US ports.  I'm not sure ANY of those is really possible, but the first two are more likely to happen than the last, that's for sure.

[roger001]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

I agree with you and the East Asians who put on a mask once they feel ill.  That isn't a 'self, self, self' approach.  What is a 'self, self, self' approach is demanding that everyone wear a mask to protect yourself.  

Well, no actually not.  Quite the opposite.  To wear a mask indicates that you are exercising responsibility within our collective society and making this effort so you do not infect those members of our collective society who will not wear a mask (me,me,me) , in the event you are infected yourself.   The consensus of opinion is that a mask, while providing you (me,me,me) with some degree of protection, it mostly prevents you from spreading the virus to others if you (you,you,you) are infected.    I have had my two shots.  I am now protected from the virus...mostly.  So if I now stop wearing a mask, it will be all about me,me,me.  I don't like wearing a mask any better than anyone else does.  But  will keep doing so to prevent, just in case I can still spread the virus, others within my collective society from being infected.  A very non selfish gesture on my part, certainly not a me,me,me.  Those of you that are not interested, have no concern about you infecting others and don't wear a mask, definitely a me, me, me. I have a nephew that feels like that.  He says he will live his life as he pleases even if it does kill others.   What a guy!   An opinion.  

[sugcarol]

There has been a massive 66% drop in contracting Covid in the past week in Dallas. Texas is also scheduled to receive one million doses of Phizer, Moderna and JandJ next week. Hopefully other states will have similar numbers going forward. Fire depts, Meals on Wheels and FEMA are putting vaccine into arms as quickly as possible. This is far better than I ever expected.

 

Data Shows 66% Drop In Risk Of Contracting COVID-19 In Dallas County (yahoo.com)

Edited March 6, 2021 by sugcarol
spelling

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, roger001 said:

Well, no actually not.  Quite the opposite.  To wear a mask indicates that you are exercising responsibility within our collective society and making this effort so you do not infect those members of our collective society who will not wear a mask (me,me,me) , in the event you are infected yourself.   

When you insist others wear a mask to protect you, then you are the me, me, me. Take personal responsibility and wear a mask, two if you think wearing one yourself isn't enough.  How is it that one can believe that a mask someone else wears protects you but the one you wear won't? 

 

When someone has completed the vaccination protocol, two shots, then that person has fulfilled their responsibilities to others.

 

[roger001]

18 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

When you insist others wear a mask to protect you, then you are the me, me, me. Take personal responsibility and wear a mask, two if you think wearing one yourself isn't enough.  How is it that one can believe that a mask someone else wears protects you but the one you wear won't? 

 

When someone has completed the vaccination protocol, two shots, then that person has fulfilled their responsibilities to others.

 

How can I believe that????   Guess that theory of mine is based on the many medical opinions I've seen that says that's how it works.....the mask protects others from you mostly....primarily.  But what do they know.  

[sugcarol]

12 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

When you insist others wear a mask to protect you, then you are the me, me, me. Take personal responsibility and wear a mask, two if you think wearing one yourself isn't enough.  How is it that one can believe that a mask someone else wears protects you but the one you wear won't? 

 

When someone has completed the vaccination protocol, two shots, then that person has fulfilled their responsibilities to others.

 

Amen! I actually sheltered in place for 8 weeks after my first dose, I didn't want to take a chance to get it or spread it while waiting for maximum immunity. I will wear a mask where a business requires it. That is all I can personally do to help  keep the virus from spreading. If you are waiting to get the vaccine, and are at high risk then shelter in place until you get it. I went to an inside restaurant in more than a year this past Wednesday.

[RocketMan275]

51 minutes ago, roger001 said:

How can I believe that????   Guess that theory of mine is based on the many medical opinions I've seen that says that's how it works.....the mask protects others from you mostly....primarily.  But what do they know.  

You're ignoring the fact that those experts change their opinions as often as they change their underwear.   Until the vaccines became available the only weapons the medical community had were masks, social distancing, and personal hygiene.  That had no choice but to recommend these measures regardless of their effectiveness.  I also point out that states that followed these medical recommendations had outcomes that were no better and often worse than the states that did not.  

 

Then there is the fact that those medical opinions often misstate or misrepresent the actual facts.  Take for example the results of the recent CDC study recommending wearing two masks.  This study clearly states: "The findings of these simulations should neither be generalized to the effectiveness of all medical procedure masks or cloths masks nor interpreted as being representative of the effectiveness of these masks when worn in real-world settings."  So, we're supposed to wear two masks because of a study that is not representative or the real world?  Do you really place a lot of weight on medical opinions such as this?

[ziggyuk]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

When someone has completed the vaccination protocol, two shots, then that person has fulfilled their responsibilities to others.

 

 

As I said selfish me, me, me! 🙄

 

Selfish as you know you can transmit it and are only concerned with yourself.

[gizfish]

5 hours ago, toocruisin2 said:

Hey all, one bit of positive news for NYers; Governor Cuomo had fairly strict travel restrictions in place for people leaving and entering NY State.

 

Yesterday the travel restrictions were loosened in that people who are fully vaccinated can travel in and out of NYS without the need to show a negative test and or quarantine.

 

Hopefully as post-vaccine data is accumulated, those vaccinated can travel in and out of the USA without severe restrictions; I hope that would make cruising a possibility for us this year. I hope 😃

Just to clarify, the NY changes are for domestic travel only, not international.  Also, the lessened restriction applies only for 90 days after being fully vaccinated.  If one was vaccinated longer than 90 days ago, the quarantine, testing out restrictions still apply.  The 90 day thing will likely change once more is known about how long immunity lasts.

[pe4all]

gizfish just answered my question about the 90 days.  Obviously types faster than I do- lol!

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by pe4all

[gizfish]

Just now, pe4all said:

Not quite sure what the 90 days means. Does that mean if you got the vaccine yesterday you are "good" until June 5th  without testing/quarentine?  And after that you would have to follow the "old" rules?

"The state's travel quarantine rules are also changing. Those who have gotten the vaccine within 90 days will no longer be required to quarantine or test out for domestic travel. Those who are vaccinated and travel internationally still must follow CDC guidance."

 

The wording is something to the effect of if you are "fully vaccinated" within 90 days of your travel, you are exempt from the restrictions.  There is no mention of waiting the 2 weeks after last dose to be "fully" immune.  So once the 90 days expire, you have to follow the restrictions.  The 90 day thing is likely to change, and at this point I think few if anyone would even be at that point yet.

[RocketMan275]

24 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

As I said selfish me, me, me! 🙄

 

Selfish as you know you can transmit it and are only concerned with yourself.

I ask nothing of you, yet I'm the selfish one?

[ziggyuk]

9 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I ask nothing of you, yet I'm the selfish one?

If you don't give a hoot for the safety of those around you..... er yes....  selfish & entitled.

[gizfish]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

When you insist others wear a mask to protect you, then you are the me, me, me. Take personal responsibility and wear a mask, two if you think wearing one yourself isn't enough.  How is it that one can believe that a mask someone else wears protects you but the one you wear won't? 

 

When someone has completed the vaccination protocol, two shots, then that person has fulfilled their responsibilities to others.

 

I think you are confused about what masks do.  The only masks that have been proven to give a high rate of personal protection are N95 masks (or similar non-counterfeit foreign masks).  The cloth and paper masks most people are wearing protect the other people, not so much the person wearing it.  Masks are not like seatbelts.  Seatbelts protect me.  Me wearing a mask protects you.  Wearing a regular mask offers little personal protection due to how breathing works and how mask filtration works.  Exhaling is more forceful, therefore spewing lots of virus particles in droplets into the air.  Wearing a mask catches those droplets before they get into the air and infect those around you.  They catch the droplets at the source.  But they don't do such a great job at filtering out virus particles which are much smaller than the droplets, coming into the mask you are wearing from someone else.  So it's not like anyone can take personal responsibility for protecting themselves by wearing a mask unless they have access to true N95 masks (which is a whole other ethical argument ; )  Since the paper masks we are buying on line or the homemade cloth masks are not regulated, there is no guarantee as to how much filtering of other peoples virus particles wearing one, two or ten of these masks can do.  

 

Since the most contagious period in covid infection is the two days BEFORE symptoms, the people spreading it cannot put on a mask when they become concerned they may be contagious as they have no idea they are.  So the responsible thing to do is to wear a mask in case you are contagious and don't know it, since you wearing the mask protects me, but me wearing the mask hardly protects me. 

 

Asking you to wear a mask to protect me is like asking you not to drive drunk to protect me.

 

 

[moto_italia]

So @armwinderasked in the original post if we thought other cruise lines would follow the example of Crystal and require a Covid vaccine of all guests.

I know you all join me in hoping the next 424 responses are as on-point, helpful and respectful as the last 424. 😝  🙄   😷