Mandatory vaccination

[DCGuy64]

23 minutes ago, ArthurUSCG said:

I'm in Southern MD, an area that is pretty red, and there is wholesale mask wearing except for when outside. But given the ruralness of my county, there's not much need to wear as mask when your not around other people. There are segments of the population here that are highly against wearing masks, but like my neighbors, once they have a family member die alone in the hospital, they quickly change their view.

I was talking about BEFORE Covid, not sure if that was clear, but based on your reply, apparently it wasn't. I'm talking about no wholesale mask wearing BEFORE now, i.e. there's no precedent. It's not like people in this area ROUTINELY walked around pre-Covid with masks on, unlike parts of Asia where it's the norm (though in places like China it's typically due to air pollution, not disease).

[graphicguy]

@HMR74

 

Not a political issue, take whatever you want.  BTW, the drugs you mentioned have been widely panned and in most cases dangerous in the treatment of COVID 19.  They are NOT recommended (as you say, not even by your own Dr).

 

FDA, WHO, CDC, and every recognized and health credited organization I've seen have "blessed" the COVID vaccines from J&J (most recent), Pfizer, Astra Zeneca, and the others who are about to be approved on the near horizon, ARE approved.

 

Those are the ones you'll have to have to cruise.  End of story.

Edited March 2, 2021 by graphicguy

[DCGuy64]

47 minutes ago, geegee1 said:

Since COVID started this is absolutely true.  First of all you have to wear as mask in NY in any public place like a grocery store.

Right, SINCE Covid. I was talking about prior to 2020, which is why I said I'd lived here since 1996 and never seen it happen until last spring. I really thought this was obvious....

 

 

[JamieLogical]

 

37 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

For me, the giant elephant in the room isn't whether masks and other mitigation measures are effective or not, it's whether the public's seeming acceptance of these things is a harbinger. I'll put my cards on the table here: my belief is that there are certain types of people who love to exercise control over others. And the degree to which they see populations bowing down to lock down measures in the interest of public health, is the degree to which they can leverage that subservience in the future to their own ends. I hear @JamieLogical say that we shouldn't need to have mask wearing, etc. once vaccinations bring down the number of deaths from Covid, and I hope that's true. But I have witnessed many people in my own community and others say "wear the damn mask" and other "just do as you're told" things, that I fully believe the public has been primed to just accept these things virtually without question in the future. And I have 0 faith in politicians not to capitalize on that obedience by feigning or creating another public health crisis in the future so they can exercise control. It's not about Covid, it's about whether or not we tolerate being dictated to, or not. If Covid is the exception to the rule, and I'm wrong, great. But if it just provides a template for the future, don't say you weren't warned. I would flip the question around and say "can anyone 100% guarantee me that we won't have mask wearing, social distancing, closed down schools, bars, restaurants, barber shops and churches closed again in the future?" If we can talk about 100% vaccine effectiveness, then I want to talk about 100% effectiveness against outrageous lock downs.

 

Obviously, we can't guarantee lock downs and mask wearing will never happen again. It is highly likely there will be future pandemics of respiratory illnesses. The COVID vaccine will hopefully get the numbers low enough that mask mandates, social distancing, and lock downs will no longer be necessary to prevent the spread of COVID. But a new pandemic could happen tomorrow and we might need to take those mitigation measures again until we can figure out how to control the spread. What I *hope* is that we have learned a lot of lessons from this pandemic about how to implement more targeted mitigation with specific gating for closures and re-openings. I hope we have learned how to more quickly implement testing and tracing measures to prevent the spread of a new pathogen from getting out of control enough that wide-spread lock downs are necessary.

 

It seems to me that you feel a specific way about masks and lockdowns being used for some nefarious purpose. I don't happen to feel that way. I ask "to what end"? How does it benefit politicians and health officials to force us to wear masks? Are they in the pocket of Big Sewing Machines? How does it benefit mayors and governors to close businesses and or limit capacity and therefore reduce tax revenues for their cities and states. Are they all it he pocket of GrubHub? You might be right that some/many politicians enjoy wielding power, but it's usually for some gain. Bankrupting their citiies and states doesn't really seem like a sound strategy to me for any sort of career or financial advancement.

[geegee1]

3 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Right, SINCE Covid. I was talking about prior to 2020, which is why I said I'd lived here since 1996 and never seen it happen until last spring. I really thought this was obvious....

 

 

Where here do you say before 2020?

 

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

[macandlucy]

12 minutes ago, HMR74 said:

I have been with a medical practice for 45 years now.  I have been with 3 Doctors over that time frame and a few years back the practice was sold to one of the big consortium's.

 

Here is the relevant issue:

 

Last summer annual physical I asked my Dr, about Hydroxychloraquine and Ivermectin and therapeutics to fight covid.

 

He flat out said he would not give me a prescription for them.

 

But then he said that if I was to come in possession of them via another prescriber,  he would not oppose it for me.

Clearly "big brother", the large medical group, is in control and that's a reality of life.

Remember there is a ton of money involved with pharma and the groups and politicians (called "lobbys",  ever hear  of them) and bureaucrats. 

 

fringe groups liked the idea of HCQ and Ivermectin but they got shouted down by CDC and NIH and Fauci,  and media and censored by Google, Facebook, Twitter etc.

 

Fast forward to Feb 2021: both are now  on approved list.  Both are cheap and safe and effective theraputics--Ivermectin is close to if not at 100%. And both have long histories, HCQ 55 years in use for other issues, and minimal side effects. HCQ 80% effective. Which will probably be more than the vaccines in the end.

 

The big pharma companies are the biggest doners to campaigns, and they do not want cheap competitive solutions to their megabuck solutions.

 

 

Also, I posted twice about CDC saying in 6% of the covid deaths, now over 500,000, was covod the only morbidity factor and on average the others has 3.8 co morbidities.

 

I think we have a virus problem, however, I also believe that poor use/interpretation  of data has been leading us to improper conclusions and implementations of solutions, which, I also believe has been too ineffective and harmful in many ways.

 

One issue is who do you believe or trust. It takes a lot of time and energy to understand the dynamics of all of this.

 

Over and out.

 

 

 

 

 

I know that HCQ plus zinc (and maybe 'zithro, I forget) were approved in other countries and used as a first line of treatment in those places, but not in Canada, and IIRC, not in the US. Has the FDA changed its stance on this? Are they now "approved"/"recommended" or is it that the ban on prescribing them has been removed? 

 

( It's kind of my pet peeve when people ask me to look up things they can easily look up themselves, so sorry if I am doing that to you! I did look and I didn't see HCQ or Ivermectin on the FDA approved drugs lists, but I'm wondering if I looked in the wrong place.)

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, JamieLogical said:

 

 

Obviously, we can't guarantee lock downs and mask wearing will never happen again. It is highly likely there will be future pandemics of respiratory illnesses. The COVID vaccine will hopefully get the numbers low enough that mask mandates, social distancing, and lock downs will no longer be necessary to prevent the spread of COVID. But a new pandemic could happen tomorrow and we might need to take those mitigation measures again until we can figure out how to control the spread. What I *hope* is that we have learned a lot of lessons from this pandemic about how to implement more targeted mitigation with specific gating for closures and re-openings. I hope we have learned how to more quickly implement testing and tracing measures to prevent the spread of a new pathogen from getting out of control enough that wide-spread lock downs are necessary.

 

It seems to me that you feel a specific way about masks and lockdowns being used for some nefarious purpose. I don't happen to feel that way. I ask "to what end"? How does it benefit politicians and health officials to force us to wear masks? Are they in the pocket of Big Sewing Machines? How does it benefit mayors and governors to close businesses and or limit capacity and therefore reduce tax revenues for their cities and states. Are they all it he pocket of GrubHub? You might be right that some/many politicians enjoy wielding power, but it's usually for some gain. Bankrupting their citiies and states doesn't really seem like a sound strategy to me for any sort of career or financial advancement.

Thanks for your comments, as always, I like your perspective and your well thought out posts.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying about some politicians capitalizing on this. I think some do, it's the nature of the beast. Some people go into politics to make a difference in the world, some do it to make connections and get rich, but still others do it because they love the power it gives them. This is nothing new: just look at the Roman Empire. Power can be intoxicating.

No, my concern about how many politicians handled the Covid crisis is less about power-wielding and more to do with ineptitude. Hanlon's Razor comes to mind. They're not evil, just stupid.

Last March, our governor had forced all hair cutting salons to close, and I couldn't get a haircut for 2 months. Was this really necessary? I wore a mask (and so did the stylist) for my last haircut (literally on the day the ban came into force, but after my appointment, just so we're clear). If my mask and her mask worked (which science says do), what was the risk? I sing professionally at a church and I effectively lost my job until the pastor applied for PPA so we could continue to get paid. Yet the liquor stores stayed open the whole time. There were serious mistakes made last year by many politicians, mistakes which are part of human nature. We are fallible creatures, after all. But those mistakes have had devastating consequences: 20,000,000 jobs lost, stock market crashes (I lost over $100,000 in my 401(k) at one point, and I NEED that money for retirement), kids falling behind in school, record number of teen suicides in Clark County, NV (Las Vegas), etc. The virus is and was serious, but attempts to mitigate it were bungled spectacularly by many in power and if we don't learn from these mistakes, they will be repeated. I'm continually reminded of my duty to help slow the spread and take responsibility. What about the politicians whose heavy-handedness caused misery? Will THEY be held accountable? I doubt it. Hence my frustration. I fear that the next killer virus will prompt the same idiots to make the same mistakes again, and all of society will pay the price. That's why I'm angry.

 

 

 

[HMR74]

41 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

ANY drug has risk, even something as innocuous as aspirin.  

 

It's pretty simple to tell the difference between the vast majority of medical professionals who know more than me (us) about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines.  The vast majority of them recommend them whole heartedly.

 

We've seen the nay sayers.  I'm trying to be kind.  But, they are mostly quacks, or unqualified (sometimes both).  For a while there, I know there was an infamous Preacher and a Chiropractor  who were pitching crazy stuff regarding COVID. 

 

But, taking the authorized vaccines are going to be required to cruise.  Royal just announced a sailing from Israel for a fully vaccinated cruise.

 

I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.  But, if you don't want to get the COVIC vaccine, regardless of reason, be prepared that you won't be cruising.

 

Think of it this way, would you want to cruise with someone who's susceptible and perhaps infected with Tuberculosis?  How about polio?  Of course not, they are all preventable with vaccines.  At one point, those were very real and dangerous diseases that were practically eradicated over time.  

 

Regardless of your feelings, you're going to need a COVID vaccine to cruise.  You can complain about it, whine about it, be stubborn about it.  What you won't be able to do is cruise without it.  And, it will be good for everyone who cruises.

 

just one correction to your comments--the vaccines are not technically authorized.

 

They are under the EUA Emergency Use Authorization.

 

Usually the EAU  is for a vaccine or drug that's much further along in the trial  process, and usually use is limited to a last ditch effort to save someones life.

Here  the vaccines are in the beginning of a trial period  which the pharma companies admit to being at least 2 more years. Usually it takes 5.

 

These trial data on the vaccines have not yet been peer reviewed, which was one reason for HCQ and Ivermectin to be dissed by the public at large.

 

All that said, my Dr friends  and neighbors, young and old, are taking the vaccine. Most are saying the downsides are low risk, but they also question the high efficacy %.  But see it as being good on balance.

 

THE ISSUE here is a) how do the cruise lines get going, and b) how can we be comfortable cruising.

 

I add another point: assuming we can cruise, and I am vaccinated already, will the restrictions  be so narrow and tight that its not the same experience we have come to expect. I have outlined that for me,  but one is the masks. I will not spend the money and time and effort to cruise if I have to wear a mask, and that's regardless of a perceived risk or not. I will not go on a cruise where the poolside lounges, both upper and lower levels, are spaced so that only 1/3 to 1/2 of the people than before can sit up there. I do not go on a cruise to sit in the cabin for a week or two.If the above is going to occur, than how many people can be in any of the  restaurants or bars at any one time? Will dinner start at 3 PM and run to 10 PM? ( i hope that's far fetched)

 

But if that's the rules, so be it. They will sail without me or my money.  The cruise companies need to run a profitable business and they will do that by providing the customers , paying customers, with a good experience, as they have done in the past. The least objectionable part of what the Cruise companies are doing is raising the prices. Several hundred dollars in cost difference makes no difference if the experience is a letdown.

 

Nuff said for now.

 

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

21 minutes ago, geegee1 said:

Where here do you say before 2020?

 

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

I think you're confused. I was talking about wholesale mask wearing not being a "thing" where I live in Washington, DC (hardly a tiny little hamlet) in the 25 years I've lived here, prior to 2020. What you're referencing above is where I said I 'PERSONALLY' don't know of any medical professional wearing a mask while doing those activities. Which I don't. Maybe you do. I've had plenty of conversations with people in restaurants and at the grocery store, on cruise ships, etc. with people who were doctors and nurses. No masks. Your experience is the exception, not the rule.

 

[hallux]

3 hours ago, ArthurUSCG said:

Have you been checked for lung damage? This is likely more of a result of long term lung damage then of the mask, given you are wearing a cotton 2 layer mask, they are often highly breathable.

Not yet as it's only an issue when wearing my mask (and I was wrong, it's 3 layers).  It's something I'll bring up next time I see my PCP, not sure when I plan to do that yet though.

[coffeebean]

23 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

You're right, but I don't know of any medical professional who keeps his/her mask ON outside of work. Nurses and doctors don't make a habit of wearing their masks:

1. In a restaurant

2. At a bar

3. Relaxing by a pool

4. On a cruise

5. Shopping for groceries

6. While in their cars

 

IOW there's a huge difference between occupationally wearing a mask and having to wear it all of the time. I personally don't mind wearing a mask when necessary, but again, the medical professional example is of limited importance. I doubt even they wish they could wear masks more often than they have to.

What you say may be true. I did read something a few weeks ago that many of the health care professionals were contracting Covid, NOT at work but AFTER work. It was found that health care professionals do not wear masks away from their jobs. That really baffles me, actually. No wonder there is a high incidence of Covid among health care professionals.

[macandlucy]

4 hours ago, geegee1 said:

 

This line of questioning what Fauci said last March always makes me laugh.  Last March this was a brand new virus.  As with any virus/disease the longer it is around the more you learn.  They learned pretty quick that masks work. Yes, they said at first not to, because they thought they needed to protect the medical community first.  Then they realized that it was an out of control virus and that masks work.

And as the vaccine is around longer the longer we will know if this vax works differently.  What is the harm in continue wearing a mask if you are vaccinated?

Why do you think Fauci et al wanted to preserve N95s for healthcare professionals? Because Fauci thought they didn't work? The fact is that while there's still some disagreement in the scientific literature about the effectiveness of masks, there's a long standing growing consensus that N95s are the most effective mask in preventing viral transmission. Long standing means before covid emerged.  

 

The "it's a new virus so we don't know if masks will work" chestnut tho. SARS COV-2 is new, but respiratory viruses are not new. Coronaviruses are not new. Even SARS viruses are not new (the clue is in the name!).  It's a pretty reasonable belief that the type of PPE that works against those virus will work against this one. Scientists are able to measure the size of a viron in 2021 and they were able to measure it in 2020. Measurement is not new. The question for N95s is do they really work for respiratory viruses, of which Covid is one.  The data appears to support that they do.

 

It was common to hear our health experts talk about "droplet containment" with respect to masks in the spring and summer last year. They'd say things like, "it might prevent your droplets from getting on others". But again, they were talking there about the filtering power of a crummy, dollar store mask or a surgical mask (that was not designed to prevent aerosol transmission)  that the public would be wearing in April or May 2020.  They were not talking about high aerosol filtering masks like N95s, because N95s do more than contain droplets.  If the public had been wearing N95s well fitted and properly when in contact with others since March, I think our case numbers would be a lot lower today. 

 

The truly new information is about the efficacy of the vaccines because the vaccines are new. That data is still coming in in real time.  What is not new, however, is that vaccines are the gold standard in public health. Effective vaccines have always eliminated the need for other public health measures, like masks, in a vaccinated population. If we do indeed need to continue to wear masks after we've all been vaccinated (which would be very, very weird), then maybe the question should be about the true efficacy of the vaccines we are being given.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by macandlucy

[coffeebean]

17 hours ago, hallux said:

Maybe not, but I can certainly attest to masks being troublesome during periods of high activity.  I'm now approaching 2 months since testing positive.  I can do 30 minutes without a mask on my (indoor) bike without much trouble but 5 minutes of exertion with my mask on and I need to take it off to catch my breath.  Granted - it's not a surgical mask (2 layer cloth from Beau Ties) but it's still a point of note.

Have you had a chest Xray since your positive Covid test? You may have some lung damage. Hope not.

[DCGuy64]

I wish I lived in Texas:

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/03/02/texas-gov-greg-abbott-to-make-statewide-announcement-in-lubbock/

Businesses open at 100%. One. Hundred. Percent.

Now I'm quite sure, given how these things usually go, that someone will rush to reply with something like "oh great, now people will die of Covid as a result." Well, that happened last year in NY and CA, and they had draconian lock downs, too. So the real question is: is it better to at least have society back open, if the death toll remains the same? I have a hunch it'll go down due to people being vaccinated.

 

[graphicguy]

“The FDA, through our open and transparent scientific review process, has now authorized three COVID-19 vaccines with the urgency called for during this pandemic, using the agency’s rigorous standards for safety, effectiveness and manufacturing quality "

 

As noted, the Moderna, Pfizer, and the new one, Janssen are indeed authorized.  Johnson and Johnson will be authorized shortly.  I'm sure others will be AUTHORIZED in the coming weeks and months.

 

Those will be the only ones which will be accepted on the cruise lines.  None of the other quack remedies/vaccines will be accepted.

[gizfish]

4 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Thanks for your comments, as always, I like your perspective and your well thought out posts.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying about some politicians capitalizing on this. I think some do, it's the nature of the beast. Some people go into politics to make a difference in the world, some do it to make connections and get rich, but still others do it because they love the power it gives them. This is nothing new: just look at the Roman Empire. Power can be intoxicating.

No, my concern about how many politicians handled the Covid crisis is less about power-wielding and more to do with ineptitude. Hanlon's Razor comes to mind. They're not evil, just stupid.

Last March, our governor had forced all hair cutting salons to close, and I couldn't get a haircut for 2 months. Was this really necessary? I wore a mask (and so did the stylist) for my last haircut (literally on the day the ban came into force, but after my appointment, just so we're clear). If my mask and her mask worked (which science says do), what was the risk? I sing professionally at a church and I effectively lost my job until the pastor applied for PPA so we could continue to get paid. Yet the liquor stores stayed open the whole time. There were serious mistakes made last year by many politicians, mistakes which are part of human nature. We are fallible creatures, after all. But those mistakes have had devastating consequences: 20,000,000 jobs lost, stock market crashes (I lost over $100,000 in my 401(k) at one point, and I NEED that money for retirement), kids falling behind in school, record number of teen suicides in Clark County, NV (Las Vegas), etc. The virus is and was serious, but attempts to mitigate it were bungled spectacularly by many in power and if we don't learn from these mistakes, they will be repeated. I'm continually reminded of my duty to help slow the spread and take responsibility. What about the politicians whose heavy-handedness caused misery? Will THEY be held accountable? I doubt it. Hence my frustration. I fear that the next killer virus will prompt the same idiots to make the same mistakes again, and all of society will pay the price. That's why I'm angry.

 

 

 

Closing hair salons and banning singing inside buildings WAS a science based decision.  You can't wear a mask when getting your hair washed.  Masks are not 100% effective at reducing droplet spread, and most salons are so small that social distancing is not easy.  Ventilation in salons is also an issue, and blow drying hair spreads the virus all over the place.  Singing is one of the easiest ways to spread the virus.  Remember one of the first documented super spreader events which was an innocent choir rehearsal.  

 

Closing those places and keeping liquor stores open was not a nefarious or punitive rule.  It is nearly impossible to have a "contact" with a covid infected person at a liquor store since the definition of a "contact" is being within 6 feet without a mask for 15 minutes.  Most people do not linger in the liquor store, and social distancing is possible there.  

[gizfish]

59 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I wish I lived in Texas:

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/03/02/texas-gov-greg-abbott-to-make-statewide-announcement-in-lubbock/

Businesses open at 100%. One. Hundred. Percent.

Now I'm quite sure, given how these things usually go, that someone will rush to reply with something like "oh great, now people will die of Covid as a result." Well, that happened last year in NY and CA, and they had draconian lock downs, too. So the real question is: is it better to at least have society back open, if the death toll remains the same? I have a hunch it'll go down due to people being vaccinated.

 

The "draconian" lockdowns in NY and CA were enacted due to covid rates surging.  They were put in place after the massive case numbers (not before them) and prevented further spread and death.  Remember the lag of about two weeks from spreading events to jump in case number and then the next two week lag for increase in death numbers.   This is science.  Limiting contact with others (by limiting the crowds in businesses and other spaces) prevents spread of Covid.  Look further at the data from NY.  You will find that once the lockdowns and mask mandates were in place long enough to stop the surge at the time when NY was the epicenter, NY went to having some of the lowest case and death numbers.  

 

So yes, with decreases in laws that mitigate the virus such as allowing crowds and/or dropping mask mandates, people WILL get and die from covid.  You also need to look at current cases.  The world and the US is actually seeing a slight uptick in cases again.  Super bowl gatherings may have had a small bit to do with that, as well as "covid fatique."  But, the new variants of the virus that are more contagious and becoming the predominant strains probably have a lot to do with that.  There are not enough vaccinated people in the US yet to do much mitigation just yet.

[complawyer]

3 hours ago, gizfish said:

The "draconian" lockdowns in NY and CA were enacted due to covid rates surging.  They were put in place after the massive case numbers (not before them) and prevented further spread and death.  Remember the lag of about two weeks from spreading events to jump in case number and then the next two week lag for increase in death numbers.   This is science.  Limiting contact with others (by limiting the crowds in businesses and other spaces) prevents spread of Covid.  Look further at the data from NY.  You will find that once the lockdowns and mask mandates were in place long enough to stop the surge at the time when NY was the epicenter, NY went to having some of the lowest case and death numbers.  

 

So yes, with decreases in laws that mitigate the virus such as allowing crowds and/or dropping mask mandates, people WILL get and die from covid.  You also need to look at current cases.  The world and the US is actually seeing a slight uptick in cases again.  Super bowl gatherings may have had a small bit to do with that, as well as "covid fatique."  But, the new variants of the virus that are more contagious and becoming the predominant strains probably have a lot to do with that.  There are not enough vaccinated people in the US yet to do much mitigation just yet.

we  live in los angeles, and never for even a moment did we feel that the lockdown was draconian. while we certainly felt bad for shop keepers and restaurant owners that were forced to shut down, anything that would help insure the safety of the general public was ok by me.  i feel the same way about people complaining about wearing a mask.. it's for your own good dummy!!!

 

my sister lives in orlando, goes to disneyworld at least once a week, and i'm afraid she has a death wish.

 

as long as covid is a threat, i'm ok with following the rules.

 

fortunately, my wife and i my daughter and grandson have been able to get the shots, and i'm looking forward to going on our cruise booked for this july.,

 

if i have to wear a a mask on board, so be it. i'd rather mask and cruise, then not mask and be unable to board the ship

[lexxfield]

18 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

For me, the giant elephant in the room isn't whether masks and other mitigation measures are effective or not, it's whether the public's seeming acceptance of these things is a harbinger. I'll put my cards on the table here: my belief is that there are certain types of people who love to exercise control over others. And the degree to which they see populations bowing down to lock down measures in the interest of public health, is the degree to which they can leverage that subservience in the future to their own ends. I hear @JamieLogical say that we shouldn't need to have mask wearing, etc. once vaccinations bring down the number of deaths from Covid, and I hope that's true. But I have witnessed many people in my own community and others say "wear the damn mask" and other "just do as you're told" things, that I fully believe the public has been primed to just accept these things virtually without question in the future. And I have 0 faith in politicians not to capitalize on that obedience by feigning or creating another public health crisis in the future so they can exercise control. It's not about Covid, it's about whether or not we tolerate being dictated to, or not. If Covid is the exception to the rule, and I'm wrong, great. But if it just provides a template for the future, don't say you weren't warned. I would flip the question around and say "can anyone 100% guarantee me that we won't have mask wearing, social distancing, closed down schools, bars, restaurants, barber shops and churches closed again in the future?" If we can talk about 100% vaccine effectiveness, then I want to talk about 100% effectiveness against outrageous lock downs.

Well said.  I agree.

Edited March 3, 2021 by lexxfield
Added additional language.

[pe4all]

10 hours ago, complawyer said:

we  live in los angeles, and never for even a moment did we feel that the lockdown was draconian. while we certainly felt bad for shop keepers and restaurant owners that were forced to shut down, anything that would help insure the safety of the general public was ok by me.  i feel the same way about people complaining about wearing a mask.. it's for your own good dummy!!!

 

my sister lives in orlando, goes to disneyworld at least once a week, and i'm afraid she has a death wish.

 

as long as covid is a threat, i'm ok with following the rules.

 

fortunately, my wife and i my daughter and grandson have been able to get the shots, and i'm looking forward to going on our cruise booked for this july.,

 

if i have to wear a a mask on board, so be it. i'd rather mask and cruise, then not mask and be unable to board the ship

As a NYer we lived through the lockdown.  It was definitely necessary and the infection rate, and- more importantly - the death rate was horrifying.  I will definitely follow any rules the cruise lines put out there.  

[winterbliss]

Fear can lead one to do anything. How else can you explain vulnerable loved ones being left alone for months in any care facility and people accepting this as reasonable?

 

 

[david_sobe]

This thread should be locked because it has strayed from talking mandatory vaccination cards for cruising to political talking points about Covid.  Seriously, our country went through the civil war, the great depression, the Spanish Flu and fought the Nazis yet people are boo hooing because they could not get a hair cut at a professional salon for a whole 2 months OMG!!!!!!  Seriously we will never survive much longer with such cry baby behavior.  People want to have it both ways.  They complain government is over reaching yet also complain government is not doing enough.  
Back on topic.  Just got my vaccine and got my Covid card.  Yes it should be mandatory prior to boarding.  So lets bring on cruising again!

[Topdog52]

31 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

This thread should be locked because it has strayed from talking mandatory vaccination cards for cruising to political talking points about Covid.  Seriously, our country went through the civil war, the great depression, the Spanish Flu and fought the Nazis yet people are boo hooing because they could not get a hair cut at a professional salon for a whole 2 months OMG!!!!!!  Seriously we will never survive much longer with such cry baby behavior.  People want to have it both ways.  They complain government is over reaching yet also complain government is not doing enough.  
Back on topic.  Just got my vaccine and got my Covid card.  Yes it should be mandatory prior to boarding.  So lets bring on cruising again!

I AGREE 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[milolii]

33 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

This thread should be locked because it has strayed from talking mandatory vaccination cards for cruising to political talking points about Covid.  Seriously, our country went through the civil war, the great depression, the Spanish Flu and fought the Nazis yet people are boo hooing because they could not get a hair cut at a professional salon for a whole 2 months OMG!!!!!!  Seriously we will never survive much longer with such cry baby behavior.  People want to have it both ways.  They complain government is over reaching yet also complain government is not doing enough.  
Back on topic.  Just got my vaccine and got my Covid card.  Yes it should be mandatory prior to boarding.  So lets bring on cruising again!

Agree.  If you want information  about vaccine requirements and cruising t’s difficult to find those helpful posts. 

[DCGuy64]

15 hours ago, gizfish said:

Closing hair salons and banning singing inside buildings WAS a science based decision.  You can't wear a mask when getting your hair washed.  Masks are not 100% effective at reducing droplet spread, and most salons are so small that social distancing is not easy.  Ventilation in salons is also an issue, and blow drying hair spreads the virus all over the place.  Singing is one of the easiest ways to spread the virus.  Remember one of the first documented super spreader events which was an innocent choir rehearsal.  

Well here's the thing: not all situations are alike.

You don't know the particulars of my situation, so here they are:

The salon I went to had plenty of room for social distancing. In fact, they'd only recently made it a requirement to get an appointment (no walk-ins), and everyone was masked. No one waiting in the waiting room. They had specifically done these things in order to ensure they only had 1 client at a time. So social distancing WAS easy. Furthermore, I did have my mask on while getting my hair washed, so you're wrong about that, too. Next, since the science says that mask wearing works, and both I and the stylist were masked for the grand total of 1/2 an hour, according the science, it was highly unlikely that if even one of us was contagious, there was very little risk of transmission.

Regarding the choir rehearsal, again, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. The one the media reported was a LARGE choir. My church's choir has 10-12 people at most, but last year it was just a quartet. And the space where we sing was at least 30 feet away from anyone else. And I was wearing a mask.

Thus, my point in all of this is that local laws didn't offer ANY flexibility at ALL. My salon situation was likened to that of a tiny salon crowded with maskless people. And my choir situation is VASTLY different. Happily, I am back to singing, with no mask on, and I do wear a mask at the barbershop I go to. But it really is a shame that we had to see so many jobs lost and people lose their livelihoods due to typical "one size fits all" lock down measures. Enough is enough, and I am thrilled that TX and MS are taking the right approach. End of discussion.