July start!!

[cruisingguy007]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

That is win, win, win UNLESS Covid rears its ugly results after unvaccinated passengers who lied and nothing was done to verify the truth of their statements cause an out break. At that point it is a huge LOSE, LOSE, LOSE.

 

There is no way to verify, the have to work with what they got. Plus it's a good opportunity to practice the protocols and perfect them for ongoing cruises. Another win!  

[SNJCruisers]

5 minutes ago, ninjacat123 said:

I wonder what the average number of children 11 and under is on Carnival cruises?  Anyone know how to find this out?  My guess would be more than 5% of the passengers.  Thx!

During the summer and during school holidays....over 5% easily.  Shoulder season, probably not.

[ontheweb]

10 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

There is no way to verify, the have to work with what they got. Plus it's a good opportunity to practice the protocols and perfect them for ongoing cruises. Another win!  

Are you seriously saying that if a ship has an outbreak of Covid that is not a lose situation? And there would definitely be an investigation afterwards. And if that investigations shows there were a significant number of unvaccinated passengers, that would be another big lose situation for both those passengers and the cruise line. They better figure out a way to verify.

[cruisingguy007]

Just now, ontheweb said:

Are you seriously saying that if a ship has an outbreak of Covid that is not a lose situation? And there would definitely be an investigation afterwards. And if that investigations shows there were a significant number of unvaccinated passengers, that would be another big lose situation for both those passengers and the cruise line. They better figure out a way to verify.

 

What is this "outbreak" talk? There WILL be cases and that's a fact but not "outbreaks". Proving a covid source is also nearly impossible. Any/all passengers will be signing an acknowledgement of the potential to acquire or be exposed to covid along with some type of indemnification clause of that you can take to the bank. All the initial cruises will be test cruises by default. They will have protocols that they will follow for any passengers who may fall ill during the voyage. You seem to believe that there is somehow an option for zero risk. There isn't. There is also no option for verifying vaccines and/or medical histories. Casting your care on the cruise line and burring your head in the sand about the facts/realities isn't going to change them. They are what they are. Those who are unvaccinted, of compromised health, or in advanced aged and are worried should probably sit it out for a while and observe from the side lines while the process is perfected and best practices established.         

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

31 minutes ago, SNJCruisers said:

...

 

But, if it does come down to an "honor system", we all know that many will lie and just check the box on their online check in.

 

...and not even blink an eye - because someone (even perhaps some mysterious cabal) is trying to take away their god given rights as an Amerikun !

 

Tom

[bassmk]

On 4/29/2021 at 10:55 AM, stellarose said:

it is not a HIPPA violation unless a doctor / nurse / health care provider shares your info.  anyone can ask if you are vaccinated. 

 

Penn State is asking students to upload their vaccine records via the schools health portal.  So I will get a copy from his doctor and upload . 

Providing vaccine records has been a requirement for college at least since I enrolled in college back in 1999. Probably before that, but I only have first-hand knowledge back that far.

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

 

Has anything been put out there as to how this will be accomplished?

Tom

Not that I am aware of.  But it will be interesting to found out.

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

They can only certify what they believe to be true and they must merely "attest" to satisfy the requirement. They can only ask passengers, there is no database to check despite the people who keep ignoring that fact and pretending like there is. At most, they could also ask for the cereal box cards or a Dr's note  So essentially, it is that simple. There is literally no other way. 

You are being way to simplistic about this.  If you think for one minute that the CDC is going to approve a purported "vaccinated" cruise with nothing other than a "we think so, but haven't verified" you're kidding yourself.  They will figure out some process because their permission to sail will depend on it.

[cruisingguy007]

19 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

You are being way to simplistic about this.  If you think for one minute that the CDC is going to approve a purported "vaccinated" cruise with nothing other than a "we think so, but haven't verified" you're kidding yourself.  They will figure out some process because their permission to sail will depend on it.

 

Then I guess no one is sailing. Your imaginary verification system doesn't exist and isn't worth the expense and trouble to create. 

[cruisingguy007]

35 minutes ago, bassmk said:

Providing vaccine records has been a requirement for college at least since I enrolled in college back in 1999. Probably before that, but I only have first-hand knowledge back that far.

 

Exactly! What is that proof? A yellow card or a print out of your vaccine record. Guess what? Those have been being faked for years as well and aren't verified either. It would take too much time, slow processing down, and they have no access to the private records. Plus it's not that huge of a problem. Most people want to be protected.   

[IntrepidFromDC]

3 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

Then I guess no one is sailing. Your imaginary verification system doesn't exist and isn't worth the expense and trouble to create. 

You're mistaken.  Linking databases is not difficult or expensive.  Verification WILL be done and not by those silly cards.

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

My point is that "vaccinated cruises" and "95% cruises", heck even unvaccinated cruises (for arguments sake) are all essentially the same anyway. They all rely on the same honor system. There is no centralized data base, it dose not exist. Why go through the expense of test cruises? Just add a check box (to CYOA), call your self a "vaccinated only" or "95% vaccinated" cruise, attest to the information provided by passengers (best you can do), and get cruising. These cruises will essentially be test cruises anyway, if you really think about it. It's a shortcut that will have the same outcome, save money, and get cruising resuming the quickest. Everybody wins. The CDC gets to look tough, the cruise lines have plausible deniability by following the recommendations and good optics on compliance/safety, and passengers get to sail as quickly as possible. Win, win, win.

Wow.  I am glad you have not been hired to advise the cruise lines on a restart.  It will matter very much how all of this is handled.  The "CDC gets to look tough"?  If the CDC wanted to look tough they would just continue to hold up cruising and not get themselves into a situation where they will be on the hook for any bad results.  The "cruise lines have plausible deniability"?  You think it will be that easy when their cruising future from the US and their reputation is on the line?  Is that the attitude they have taken so far with their cruising elsewhere?  No.  The whole world is watching.

 

But I will say that your cavalier attitude about a restart will certain insure that protocols like testing, masks, social distancing, capacity controls and the like will remain in place for the foreseeable future.  If passengers and the cruise lines cannot be trusted to take this seriously, then the industry may just be doomed.

[cruisingguy007]

Just now, IntrepidFromDC said:

You're mistaken.  Linking databases is not difficult or expensive.  Verification WILL be done and not by those silly cards.

I'd take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday! 

[AnitaVacation]

4 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

Then I guess no one is sailing. Your imaginary verification system doesn't exist and isn't worth the expense and trouble to create. 

Why do you think there is no list?  At this time, there is no FEDERAL database, but that doesn't mean there is no list.  I'm sure each state has some kind of record.

 

Is there anyone out there that DID NOT have to show ANY ID before getting a shot??  

 

PS...it is NOT 'against the law' for them to require proof of vaccination. (They are fully in their right to say No proof, No passage)

[cruisingguy007]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Wow.  I am glad you have not been hired to advise the cruise lines on a restart.  It will matter very much how all of this is handled.  The "CDC gets to look tough"?  If the CDC wanted to look tough they would just continue to hold up cruising and not get themselves into a situation where they will be on the hook for any bad results.  The "cruise lines have plausible deniability"?  You think it will be that easy when their cruising future from the US and their reputation is on the line?  Is that the attitude they have taken so far with their cruising elsewhere?  No.  The whole world is watching.

 

But I will say that your cavalier attitude about a restart will certain insure that protocols like testing, masks, social distancing, capacity controls and the like will remain in place for the foreseeable future.  If passengers and the cruise lines cannot be trusted to take this seriously, then the industry may just be doomed.

 

I didn't make the rules. I call it how I see it and deal in facts. I'm sorry you had to be exposed to the red pill. Probably better to stick with the blue pill and live in fantasy land (don't worry be happy and smile). Some are more comfortable there and can't handle the truth. 

[cruisingguy007]

7 minutes ago, AnitaVacation said:

Why do you think there is no list?  At this time, there is no FEDERAL database, but that doesn't mean there is no list.  I'm sure each state has some kind of record.

 

Is there anyone out there that DID NOT have to show ANY ID before getting a shot??  

 

PS...it is NOT 'against the law' for them to require proof of vaccination. (They are fully in their right to say No proof, No passage)

 

1. Yes, you could get the shot in California without a ID. Fact.

2. I never claimed it was against the law to ask or even require proof. To what lengths that proof can be legally/reliably verified is what I have challenged. Proof is the easy part.   

Edited May 2, 2021 by cruisingguy007

[AnitaVacation]

1 minute ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

2. I never claimed it was against the law to ask or even require proof.

Dude...settle down....I never said YOU claimed anything

[Stallion]

I think the parameters of this argument should be set

 

What we know is that there are definitely state registries in every state

 

Vaccination records mandatorily must be entered into the state registry-I believe within a few days

 

The states don't need the approval of the patient to be placed in the registry because there has been a declared national emergency authorizing sharing information with federal government

 

In order to become a participant in the federal vaccination program, each state was required to sign a complicated 25 page Data Sharing Agreement which includes provisions for privacy, encryption of data but also the provision for Authorized Users which can be governmental agencies and entities that are assisting in the effort to fight the pandemic

 

What we don't know is exactly who those unnamed Authorized Users are. They include the CDC, HHS and other authorized users. The terminology is indefinite with regard to "other" unless you an expert in federal administrative law to decode what that document means by Authorized Users

 

But we definitely know that there are computer generated databases in each state which are shared with agencies of the federal government

 

It will be interesting to find out who the Authorized Users are and whether reporting the absence of any vaccination record constitutes the release of private patient information

 

Here is the Data Sharing Agreement if anyone wants to take a stab at clarifying Authorized Users

 

The definition of Authorized User is as follows but its used 37 times so its a tad more expansive than the preliminary defintion:

 

“Authorized User,” for purposes of this DUA, means an individual who, as part of directly supporting the whole of government response efforts, has a need for data stored in the DCH, the IZ Data Lake, and/or the Tiberius platforms in furtherance of the purposes and uses set forth herein. Authorized Users will generally be employees, contractors, and/or other agents specified by jurisdictions or federal agencies engaged in the response for purposes of addressing critical public health and emergency response activities, including assessing infrastructure needs and resource allocation. Authorized Users must adhere to applicable federal law and to any applicable provisions set out in this DUA with respect to the data stored in the respective platforms, which are further defined herein and described in Appendices A–D. “Covered Data” means the information that is being shared b

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/reporting/downloads/vaccine-administration-data-agreement.pdf

Edited May 2, 2021 by Stallion

[harkinmr]

10 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

I didn't make the rules. I call it how I see it and deal in facts. I'm sorry you had to be exposed to the red pill. Probably better to stick with the blue pill and live in fantasy land (don't worry be happy and smile). Some are more comfortable there and can't handle the truth. 

Heh.  You're not dealing in facts, you are dealing in speculation.  The rules are being decided by those in control.  That's the truth.

[toad455]

I think Carnival will start with just six ships at first. Two from Galveston, two from Miami and two from Port Canaveral. All at reduced capacity.

[TNcruising02]

As far as what kind of proof will be necessary should Carnival decide to require passengers be vaccinated, this is what Royal is currently requiring for their cruises outside of the US:

 

"Each guest must submit proof of vaccination no later than boarding day, in the form of the original vaccination record  document issued by either (1) the country’s health authority that administered the vaccination (e.g., U.S. CDC's Vaccination Record Card) or (2) the guest's medical provider that administered the vaccination. Electronic vaccination records will only be accepted for residents of those countries where electronic documentation is the standard issued form (e.g., a unique QR code). The vaccination record submitted to Royal Caribbean must show that the guest is fully vaccinated. This means that the guest has completed the full cycle of required doses for the vaccine administered (e.g., received the second dose in a two-dose series), and that the guest has received the final dose at least 14 days before sailing.

All guests must present proof of vaccination as well as all required travel documents upon arrival at the ship terminal."

[BoozinCroozin]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Could you provide a citation for schools not being allowed to question the vaccine status of children of illegal immigrants as that makes no sense. It is more likely they are not allowed to ask their immigration status.

Yes, my wife's school and all in NC. 

[dan4182]

Carnival Vista and Breeze in the Port of Galveston today.

[IntrepidFromDC]

58 minutes ago, toad455 said:

I think Carnival will start with just six ships at first. Two from Galveston, two from Miami and two from Port Canaveral. All at reduced capacity.

Not Baltimore? 😟

[mondello]

7 minutes ago, IntrepidFromDC said:

Not Baltimore? 😟

All guesses right now. I agree they will start slow and I don't even know if they can pull it off for July. Crew coming back will need time to book flights and they can't afford last minute flights. Then have to consider if they even have access to vaccines back home. It will take 2-3 weeks to get full immunity after their shots if they don't get the jab until they get here.