What are the chances Florida gets its way in court today (5/12/21)?

[Ken the cruiser]

I'm hoping, which might be a stretch, that when the judge makes the decision, hopefully in favor of the CDC, that it also clears any misconception that Florida can prevent the cruise lines from asking for proof of vaccination prior to boarding a cruise out of a Florida port.

[Homosassa]

Ashley Moody needs a firm grounding in Constitutional Law from someone that has a firm grounding in the area and taught the subject in law school. Barak Obama comes to mind.

[nocl]

17 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Agreed. Just because statements and assertions are made in a legal filing does not make them so.  It boggles the mind that people otherwise believe that to be the case.  Facts are facts and the law is the law.  This judge will apply the law to the facts. 

Perception is reality

 

What someone perceives  is their reality

[grandgeezer]

59 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Agreed. Just because statements and assertions are made in a legal filing does not make them so.  It boggles the mind that people otherwise believe that to be the case.  Facts are facts and the law is the law.  This judge will apply the law to the facts. 

And as like everything else on this board, if he doesn't rule in favor of what the individual deems as right, the judge will be labeled as incompetent or biased.

[JRG]

14 hours ago, cscurlock said:

Maybe port jobs but are those people still even employed after being laid off over a year?  I doubt they are even employed at this point and most of those workers have probably moved on.

 

You've hit on a very key concept, @cscurlock.

 

This could be one of the sleeper nails in the coffin that people are overlooking.

 

What I mean is that,   some cruiselines MAY or MIGHT have to pull out of us docks because the support personnel who were laid off are either making more on unemployment or are making more money at home as a travel agent.     

 

People are also overlooking the labor trickle-down shortage that has sneaked up on the restaurant industry and it's everywhere.

 

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I'm hoping, which might be a stretch, that when the judge makes the decision, hopefully in favor of the CDC, that it also clears any misconception that Florida can prevent the cruise lines from asking for proof of vaccination prior to boarding a cruise out of a Florida port.

That, unfortunately, will not be part of the decision.  And, this is just an injunction hearing, not a final decision on the case, just whether there needs to be an immediate injunction, until the final verdict.

[Orator]

I wouldn't be surprised with any verdict. You never how a judge will rule . The 9 justices on the Supreme Court hear the same evidence presented by the same lawyers. They read the same briefs and yet they often reach far different conclusions. Nothing surprises me in terms of court decisions.

[JRG]

I'm not keeping score,  but I think the CDC is 0 for 1 in case precedent.

 

In legal poker,   I think case precedent bears significantly over standing in similar cases.

 

Did the CDC not just lose a case because of 'similar overreach'.

 

or is this is case of the public welfare and its economic health starvation that the judge needs to weigh versus his view of the pandemic current risk level.

 

 

[JRG]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, this is just an injunction hearing, not a final decision on the case, just whether there needs to be an immediate injunction, until the final verdict.

 

Don't kid yourself.

 

This is a watershed ruling.

 

 

[JRG]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I'm hoping, which might be a stretch, that when the judge makes the decision, hopefully in favor of the CDC, that it also clears any misconception that Florida can prevent the cruise lines from asking for proof of vaccination prior to boarding a cruise out of a Florida port.

 

The other poster is right that its not part of the decision.

 

On the misconception , it looks like the Governor made a right and then he made a wrong.

 

I am hoping he makes a second right so that two rights and one wrong make one right.

 

In other words,  he un-goofs the vax--passport thing with some slight of hand.

 

 

 

 

[Mike981]

Since the state of Florida is suing the CDC, I always wonder who foots the bill for these things? Tax payers and do they ever release the cost? I can't believe that the lawyers have been sitting around doing nothing, so they have to put other things on the back burner?

[FlyerTalker]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

I'm not keeping score,  but I think the CDC is 0 for 1 in case precedent.

 

In legal poker,   I think case precedent bears significantly over standing in similar cases.

 

Did the CDC not just lose a case because of 'similar overreach'.

 

If you are talking about the CDC order about an eviction moratorium, yes the CDC has been on the losing end of that one.  Basically that they overreached their authorities.

[bEwAbG]

Well, not exactly.  There have been six major rulings at the district level related to the CDC eviction moratorium: three judges have ruled it's ok and three have said it's not.  The one ruling earlier this month was stayed by the judge (today) pending appeal, so her ruling has changed nothing.  This will probably end up in the Supreme Court, which is how things work when there is such disagreement.  The original order as written by the previous administration has been a big source of confusion from the beginning, so it would be nice to have some clarity.  However, Congress ratified the moratorium in December by extending it via legislation, which is the process by which agency acts are made Constitutional.   Those who think the CDC overstepped their authority are likely to be disappointed in the outcome of any Supreme Court ruling.

[nocl]

The Florida governor may have undercut his own case when he stated that if NCL pulled out of Florida it would have no impact and they could be easily replaced.

[GeorgesGal]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:25 AM, harkinmr said:

Just remarkable. Not only are they exaggerating their “aggressive vaccination program” but the irony is priceless. Between this and their response to the judge’s question about protecting public safety without the CSO: self-regulation sir.  Defies description really. 

to which I've written a letter to Gov Desantis today re his tying his opposition to the vaccination passport to HIPPA regulations:

Dear Gov. Desantis:

 

While I can understand your position re: HIPPA rules on privacy of health matters, since we have encountered, endured and experienced this pandemic called COVID19 for more than a year, and vaccinations have proven successful in stopping/slowing its spread, I cannot for the life of me understand your opposition to the so-called vaccine  passports.  You have not opposed the proof of being COVID19 negative to anyone entering the United States of America as a violation of HIPPA, so why this discrepancy?

 

I have been vaccinated and travelled out of the Country last month, had my COVID19 test which was negative, and presented it to American Airlines - a publicly traded corporation - as proof of my negative status in order to board the plane.  Did I worry that my  HIPPA rights were violated?  NO, I did not.

 

I currently have a cruise booked for January on Oceania Cruise Line, which is requiring 100% of crew and passengers to be vaccinated prior to boarding here in Florida, with proof thereof.  I will provide to the cruise line proof of vaccination, just as I provided American Airlines proof I was tested and found negative for infection with COVID19, and again, I will not worry about my HIPPA rights.  If I was, I would not cruise, would I?!

 

It is my firm belief that this cruise line and its parent holding company, NCLH, are acting in the best interest of their passengers and crew by requiring such proof of vaccination, and I will GLADLY COMPLY with their terms.

 

Please reconsider your ban on vaccine passports; it just doesn't make any sense.

 

Sincerely,

 

Donna J Clasen

Palm City, FL

 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, GeorgesGal said:

to which I've written a letter to Gov Desantis today re his tying his opposition to the vaccination passport to HIPPA regulations:

Dear Gov. Desantis:

 

While I can understand your position re: HIPPA rules on privacy of health matters, since we have encountered, endured and experienced this pandemic called COVID19 for more than a year, and vaccinations have proven successful in stopping/slowing its spread, I cannot for the life of me understand your opposition to the so-called vaccine  passports.  You have not opposed the proof of being COVID19 negative to anyone entering the United States of America as a violation of HIPPA, so why this discrepancy?

 

I have been vaccinated and travelled out of the Country last month, had my COVID19 test which was negative, and presented it to American Airlines - a publicly traded corporation - as proof of my negative status in order to board the plane.  Did I worry that my  HIPPA rights were violated?  NO, I did not.

 

I currently have a cruise booked for January on Oceania Cruise Line, which is requiring 100% of crew and passengers to be vaccinated prior to boarding here in Florida, with proof thereof.  I will provide to the cruise line proof of vaccination, just as I provided American Airlines proof I was tested and found negative for infection with COVID19, and again, I will not worry about my HIPPA rights.  If I was, I would not cruise, would I?!

 

It is my firm belief that this cruise line and its parent holding company, NCLH, are acting in the best interest of their passengers and crew by requiring such proof of vaccination, and I will GLADLY COMPLY with their terms.

 

Please reconsider your ban on vaccine passports; it just doesn't make any sense.

 

Sincerely,

 

Donna J Clasen

Palm City, FL

 

Unfortunately it demonstrates in Florida  a political lets justify this by twisting anything we can find.

 

It is by no means a violation of HIPAA.  After all someone would have to voluntarily release their information to the cruise line.  Just as you released your test results to the airline.  HIPAA merely makes it illegal for someone's medical information to be released without their permission.

Edited May 15, 2021 by nocl

[GTarrant]

15 hours ago, nocl said:

Unfortunately it demonstrates in Florida  a political lets justify this by twisting anything we can find.

 

It is by no means a violation of HIPAA.  After all someone would have to voluntarily release their information to the cruise line.  Just as you released your test results to the airline.  HIPAA merely makes it illegal for someone's medical information to be released without their permission.

And it doesn't even do that. It makes it illegal for health information to be released BE A COVERED ENTITY without permission. Covered entities are medical providers, health insurers, and the like. NO OTHER ENTITIES ARE COVERED BY HIPAA.

 

If I tell you my medical history for some reason, and you release it to the world, you did not violate HIPAA, because you are not a covered entity (unless you're a doctor or health insurer or other medical business). If a reporter releases health information, they did not violate HIPAA, because they are not covered by it.

 

HIPAA is not some sort of universal medical privacy law that affects everyone. It binds only entities that would come into contact with health information as a matter of their course of business. A cruise line can ask for medical information for sailing (and in fact some do, for certain cruises, for older passengers) without running afoul of the law.

[jgmorgan]

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that every time I have cruised (10 or so, all on Celebrity) I have been asked about any current symptoms for respiratory or norovirus type ailments.  I believe I even had to sign some kind of attestation.  Am I misremembering this?

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, jgmorgan said:

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that every time I have cruised (10 or so, all on Celebrity) I have been asked about any current symptoms for respiratory or norovirus type ailments.  I believe I even had to sign some kind of attestation.  Am I misremembering this?

 

You are remembering correctly.  I've actually seen people denied boarding because one of their party was noticeably sick.

[songbird1329]

The lawsuit is a loser and DeSantis knew it when he had his people file it.  Political grandstanding at its best.

 

I read the pleadings and I read the motion papers.  I’m trying to get a copy of the transcript of oral argument, but my understanding is that the Judge was not impressed with Florida’s case.  If he were going to grant the injunction he might have ruled from the bench, but he took the motion under advisement.

 

aside from the fact that Florida lacks standing, once the CDC established that it was working with the cruise lines, the actual parties in interest, to come up with appropriate guidelines, that was the end of Florida’s case.

[harkinmr]

10 hours ago, Dwight1 said:

The simple solution to encourage only vaccinated passengers is to institute a policy that if you do not provide proof of vaccination you will be allowed on board per the law but with a PCR test and you will be required to wear at all times a cruise line provided color bracelet (like a beach bracelet or hospital bracelet) that indicates you are unvaccinated and you must wear a mask at all times, indoor and outside. Non compliance will require your exiting the cruise .

And that would work about as well as the retail stores now saying "hey unvaccinated people, y'all need to wear a mask".  Riiiight...🙄

[Arizona Wildcat]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:33 PM, cscurlock said:

Yeah, Lol, the cruise lines have done so well in the past policing themselves.  Just look at Carnival and all their dumping.  This lawsuit has 0 merit because the parties that are actually harmed are not even bringing the case.  You cant say I'm suing you because you ran over my brothers favorite cat.   That is basically what is happening here.  

Would be funny if this wasn't real.  Agree with others the Stateof Florida has no standing.  The biggest issue to resuming cruises is getting a ship ready to sail with a vaccinated and fully trained crew.  The cruise lines agreed to a quarantine on arrival.  2 weeks.  My question how do you get crew to the ships today from India and other countries.  Gonna still take till August no matter what is done in the courts.

PS - the losing side will appeal.  Repeat.

[K.T.B.]

Mediation has been ordered:  https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/

[JRG]

It’s not about justice now, it’s about settlement.

[lv2cruisgrl]

Judge Orders CDC and Florida to Mediation Over Cruise Industry

 

May 18, 2021

The State of Florida's lawsuit to reopen the cruise industry against the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is heading to mediation as ordered by Judge Steven D. Merryday.

The Judge, via signed order on May 18, said both parties must participate in the mediation prior to June 1, 2021.

In April, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis announced a lawsuit against the Biden Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to allow cruises to restart in the United States. Alaska and Texas ended up joining the lawsuit. 

DeSantis said the federal government and the CDC had locked down the cruise industry for over a year and it was not reasonable.