Federal Judge Grants NCL Preliminary Injunction v Florida

[WeMissSeaView]

Related INFO:  Last month when I got on the Freedom in Miami, I was asked if I wanted to show my vaccination card.  Today, I was asked to show my vaccination card.  In fact, I was asked to show my vaccination card three different times at three different checkpoints.  First was at the podium when you first enter the terminal.  Second was at the entrance to the Suite/Pinnacle room in the terminal after going through security.  Third was at the exit of the Suite/Pinnacle room to proceed to the gangway.  They took a picture of it at the first check, and still looked it over at the second and third checks.  At the second check we were told that we could put away our passports and cards, but less the three minutes later I was having a third check.

[coffeebean]

6 hours ago, WeMissSeaView said:

Related INFO:  Last month when I got on the Freedom in Miami, I was asked if I wanted to show my vaccination card.  Today, I was asked to show my vaccination card.  In fact, I was asked to show my vaccination card three different times at three different checkpoints.  First was at the podium when you first enter the terminal.  Second was at the entrance to the Suite/Pinnacle room in the terminal after going through security.  Third was at the exit of the Suite/Pinnacle room to proceed to the gangway.  They took a picture of it at the first check, and still looked it over at the second and third checks.  At the second check we were told that we could put away our passports and cards, but less the three minutes later I was having a third check.

Things are looking up. So glad to hear this.

[livingonthebeach]

I, for one, would be pleased if this preliminary injunction which blocks the implementation of Senate Bill 2006, banning Florida businesses, including cruise lines, from requiring vaccination proof or face $5,000 fines for each violation, becomes permanent and allows cruise lines to decide what is best to keep passengers and crew safe. 

 

As a contributor to a survey cited by Judge Kathleen Williams in her 59 page decision, I feel good about voting the way I did.  The survey points out the finding that "80 percent of respondents would prefer to sail on a cruise with a vaccine requirement."

 

IMO, Florida overstepped its authority when it decided that asking for vaccine documentation was illegal, regardless of what customers wanted, regardless of what cruise lines wanted, regardless of federal government recommendations.  Letting cruise lines decide the most sensible policy, while keeping everyone on its ships safe, is in keeping with the spirit of free enterprise.

 

Here's a link to the 59 page decision by Judge Williams, a federal judge, United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida, Miami, FL :

 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.596136/gov.uscourts.flsd.596136.43.0_1.pdf

 

 

 

[zekekelso]

11 hours ago, hal2008 said:

Can RCL offer both type of cruises

No. If there’s a significant outbreak on board, that’s going to be held against all of RCI and the industry in general. 

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, zekekelso said:

No. If there’s a significant outbreak on board, that’s going to be held against all of RCI and the industry in general. 

 

I agree.  Until cases go down and variants subside, it’s not very prudent to offer entirely unvaccinated cruises.  In various surveys, the majority of people who cruise, want fully vaccinated cruises and I’m sure they would not like getting on a ship with a previous unvaccinated sailing, no matter how hard they cleaned and scrubbed. 

[Iamcruzin]

20 hours ago, firefly333 said:

Idk there is a list, but I read last week about st thomas only takes vaccinated I think. So cruises going there. Idk why they dont skip st thomas rather than last  minute change the rules and cancel unvaccinated.  Rcl is changing rules every day last week.

Personally I would rather them cancel unvaccinated. These new requirements allow Royal to save face with the unvaccinated passengers. Parents with children who can't be vaccinated shouldn't be putting them in harm's way just to be on vacation. I wouldn't even book a flight if I had children under age.  I wonder how many of those who are able to be vaccinated but won't would change their minds if they couldn't cruise.

[not-enough-cruising]

16 hours ago, jrapps said:

This is not entirely true. If Royal does not care to sail with 95% vaccinated, then why is that precisely what they are doing outside of FL. Here are the vaccination rules for Galveston, TX:

 

Vaccination Requirement for Cruises Departing Galveston, Texas

For cruises departing Galveston, Texas in August 2021 onboard Independence of the Seas, Royal Caribbean guests age 12 and older must present proof of COVID-19 vaccination with the final dose of their vaccine administered at least 14 days before sailing.

All crew onboard Independence of the Seas will be fully vaccinated.

 

So what is the difference, why require them in TX and not FL? Only one difference...the law that NCL just got an injunction against.

 

It is not hard to believe that if the law is unenforceable, that they would treat FL exactly the same as TX

 

There is no 95% requirement being followed in TX, they are allowing as many under the age of 12 as want to come. There is no doubt, however, it’s a better system than Florida. 

[Auntiemomo]

What's the end game?  Are we going to have passports for other communicable diseases?  Not concerned with influenza, hepatitis, ebola, tuberculosis, et al, before boarding a cruise ship?  People who are concerned about catching covid on a cruise ship probably shouldn't cruise at all, especially if you have vulnerabilities.  

[Iamcruzin]

9 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

What's the end game?  Are we going to have passports for other communicable diseases?  Not concerned with influenza, hepatitis, ebola, tuberculosis, et al, before boarding a cruise ship?  People who are concerned about catching covid on a cruise ship probably shouldn't cruise at all, especially if you have vulnerabilities.  

When was the last time influenza, hepatitis, ebola, and tuberculosis held a ship hostage at sea?  The issue isn't fear of catching covid. It's the ever changing testing and protocols that have people fed up and wanting to cancel their cruise.

[coldflame]

8 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

What's the end game?  Are we going to have passports for other communicable diseases?  Not concerned with influenza, hepatitis, ebola, tuberculosis, et al, before boarding a cruise ship?  People who are concerned about catching covid on a cruise ship probably shouldn't cruise at all, especially if you have vulnerabilities.  

 

Do you know that vaccination "passports" were a requirement to enter until about the Y2K, right? TB vaccine scar in the arm was a requirement to travel many places in the 80s. Every time there has been a highly transmissible disease in regional flareups there have been vaccination requirements as condition for entry. Not sure what you're implying here, but to not require vaccination proof for entry or boarding is actually an exception, not the "normal" course of action.

[not-enough-cruising]

17 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

What's the end game?  Are we going to have passports for other communicable diseases?  Not concerned with influenza, hepatitis, ebola, tuberculosis, et al, before boarding a cruise ship?  People who are concerned about catching covid on a cruise ship probably shouldn't cruise at all, especially if you have vulnerabilities.  

Funny you bring up TB, do you have any idea how the US handles positive TB cases? The quarantining and isolation procedures at the state and federal level make Covid rules look progressive. 
 

Your comparisons are nonsense. 

[ticketsunlimited]

11 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

What's the end game?  Are we going to have passports for other communicable diseases?  Not concerned with influenza, hepatitis, ebola, tuberculosis, et al, before boarding a cruise ship?  People who are concerned about catching covid on a cruise ship probably shouldn't cruise at all, especially if you have vulnerabilities.  

It’s a Pandemic specific to one virus. Hopefully people will get that into there head sooner than later.

When the Pandemic is declared OVER we will go back to our way of traveling, shopping, living…this will happen sooner than lamer ONLY ONE WAY!

When the virus does not have enough hosts to feed off of. If humans block this live killing entity (the virus) by vaccinating it will be controlled. The longer the human race race waits the longer we have to deal with it.

EASY AS THAT!!

Call my post dramatic but it’s explained for a kindergarten student to understand.

[At Sea At Peace]

19 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

What's the end game?  Are we going to have passports for other communicable diseases?  Not concerned with influenza, hepatitis, ebola, tuberculosis, et al, before boarding a cruise ship?  People who are concerned about catching covid on a cruise ship probably shouldn't cruise at all, especially if you have vulnerabilities.  

 

Not worried about 'catching covid on a cruise ship,' just getting there for now is more of a concern (flights) issue.  Will be less of an issue in a couple of months.

 

People who are concerned about their health, spouse, kids, parents, etc. should, in concert with consultations with their Doctors, use the appropriate individual protocols per risk and risk concern of their significant family of others for all diseases.  Possibly turning OFF the TV for medical advice from any source until referenced research and substantiated data is filtered 'through to the advice from your Doctors.'

[kearney]

1 hour ago, not-enough-cruising said:

There is no 95% requirement being followed in TX, they are allowing as many under the age of 12 as want to come. There is no doubt, however, it’s a better system than Florida. 

Aren't the RCCL protocols for FL and TX the same? I thought that they were both following the below 95% model... thus higher requirements for those sailing..including masking....

[jrapps]

3 minutes ago, kearney said:

Aren't the RCCL protocols for FL and TX the same? I thought that they were both following the below 95% model... thus higher requirements for those sailing..including masking....

I believe both are going the under 95% route. The difference is on ships out of TX, everyone on the ship 12+ is vaccinated. Required.

[kearney]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I believe both are going the under 95% route. The difference is on ships out of TX, everyone on the ship 12+ is vaccinated. Required.

Candidly I am having trouble keeping track... it was hard enough on the Nassau cruises.... I ended up cancelling once they added mask requirement for vaccinated... why fly to Nassau to experience what I could in Florida (where I can drive to port at least minimizing airport hassles).. that was the point of going out of the country... a normal experience. A passenger onboard says that they have to wear purple bands because... despite being promoted as everyone over 12 must be vaccinated...apparently not everyone over 12 is.. Still wondering if that is really the case... but another passenger said that in a vaccine designated area (Schooner bar) they had to replace their masks in between sips.... So all things considered... I am glad that I cancelled... plus my original sailing may have TS Fred to deal with.

[jrapps]

6 minutes ago, kearney said:

Candidly I am having trouble keeping track... it was hard enough on the Nassau cruises.... I ended up cancelling once they added mask requirement for vaccinated... why fly to Nassau to experience what I could in Florida (where I can drive to port at least minimizing airport hassles).. that was the point of going out of the country... a normal experience. A passenger onboard says that they have to wear purple bands because... despite being promoted as everyone over 12 must be vaccinated...apparently not everyone over 12 is.. Still wondering if that is really the case... but another passenger said that in a vaccine designated area (Schooner bar) they had to replace their masks in between sips.... So all things considered... I am glad that I cancelled... plus my original sailing may have TS Fred to deal with.

Yes, keeping track is becoming a nightmare. Disney started up yesterday and there are reports of dozens (or even hundreds) being denied sailing because they didn't know all the pre-cruise info and they only have ONE US SHIP! 

 

I firmly believe if this injunction holds, we will see a normalization with as many (if not ALL) cruises, regardless of port, destination, duration, etc...they will get every cruise on the exact same protocols.

 

KISS...Keep it Simple Stupid

[bigdaddyyo]

I honestly think a business has a right to make its own decisions about the types of customers it wants to serve.  If the business wants to whittle down the entire customer pool to only serve certain populations/demographics etc, that is there choice.  It is their business.  If they feel like they can be successful in doing that, then more power to them.  But in the end, the whole goal of the business is to keep the business going.  So the business will eventually follow the money or they shutdown.  Simple as that.  If NCL can do it on just vaccinated folks, then more power to them, but in the long run that isn't sustainable.  As soon as they see they aren't making as much money as they thought they would, then they change course and start allowing exceptions.  Those exceptions have an adverse effect on the customers that already booked thinking it was going to be a certain way and now it isn't.  Cruise lines are in real trouble.  They are in a no win situation here.  

[alfaeric]

9 minutes ago, bigdaddyyo said:

I honestly think a business has a right to make its own decisions about the types of customers it wants to serve.  If the business wants to whittle down the entire customer pool to only serve certain populations/demographics etc, that is there choice.  It is their business.  If they feel like they can be successful in doing that, then more power to them.  But in the end, the whole goal of the business is to keep the business going.  So the business will eventually follow the money or they shutdown.  Simple as that.  If NCL can do it on just vaccinated folks, then more power to them, but in the long run that isn't sustainable.  As soon as they see they aren't making as much money as they thought they would, then they change course and start allowing exceptions.  Those exceptions have an adverse effect on the customers that already booked thinking it was going to be a certain way and now it isn't.  Cruise lines are in real trouble.  They are in a no win situation here.  

 I'm betting that NCL sees a lot more potential in the vaccination pool than the non.   If it's an 80/20 view of wanting vaccinations, then the potential pool for not vaccinations would not exactly fill a ship.  

 

It's interesting that people assume that the calculation of what pool of customers they want to go for isn't being very, very, very much calculated.  If they honestly felt that they would make more money by having mixed cruises and dealing with the PR if thing go south, they would.  

[bigdaddyyo]

13 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

 I'm betting that NCL sees a lot more potential in the vaccination pool than the non.   If it's an 80/20 view of wanting vaccinations, then the potential pool for not vaccinations would not exactly fill a ship.  

 

It's interesting that people assume that the calculation of what pool of customers they want to go for isn't being very, very, very much calculated.  If they honestly felt that they would make more money by having mixed cruises and dealing with the PR if thing go south, they would.  

 

I think for NCL this is mostly theatre.  They spent a lot of time/money on the Healthy Sail Panel so they need to come out of the gates firing on all cylinders.  By October they will know whether or not they can sustain this.  If they feel like they can't sustain this business model, they will tell everyone that the world is a different place now and things are better so we are going to do things different.  Doesn't matter if we are in the same spot then as we are now.  The money will talk.

[jrapps]

Just now, bigdaddyyo said:

 

I think for NCL this is mostly theatre.  They spent a lot of time/money on the Healthy Sail Panel so they need to come out of the gates firing on all cylinders.  By October they will know whether or not they can sustain this.  If they feel like they can't sustain this business model, they will tell everyone that the world is a different place now and things are better so we are going to do things different.  Doesn't matter if we are in the same spot then as we are now.  The money will talk.

And with the injunction in place, they have the freedom as a business to run in such as way as to be as profitable as possible. If over time they come to a decision that 100% vaccines no longer serve their healthy sail protocols and are hurting business more than helping, then I expect to see them evolve and may even eventually go away.

 

Their choice.

[At Sea At Peace]

3 minutes ago, bigdaddyyo said:

 

I think for NCL this is mostly theatre.  They spent a lot of time/money on the Healthy Sail Panel so they need to come out of the gates firing on all cylinders.  By October they will know whether or not they can sustain this.  If they feel like they can't sustain this business model, they will tell everyone that the world is a different place now and things are better so we are going to do things different.  Doesn't matter if we are in the same spot then as we are now.  The money will talk.

 

Yep.

 

If 100% vaccinated doesn't preclude wearing masks and social distancing, the model will be short-lived.

[cruiselvr04]

I personally want a fully vaccinated crew and all passengers.  And because of variants I’m coming around to being okay with a test prior to boarding.  I think the vast majority of us just want to get back to travel and doing it as safely as possible.  There will never be no risk if you leave your home for picking up a bug.  The DH just got a covid test this a.m. He had fever of 101 Sunday and some last evening although not as high.  If it’s not covid it’s something else he picked up which is very weird because he doesn’t go out without a mask and he’s only been in stores briefly.  ( Our 11 year old grandson who is out and about did come over a few days ago.  He’s not sick but I suppose he could carry something in to us.  He had covid in June.)

Kudos to NCL for doing this.  I think masks and vaccines are personal choice but I also think a business should be able to do what it wants to do. 

[bigdaddyyo]

4 minutes ago, CT Sean said:

People have cared about vaccines for decades.  People didn't talk about it because either they were vaccinated or they were fringe anti-vaxers and treated like flat-earthers or any other conspiracy theorists. It was only recently that not getting one became a political statement.  I have every confidence if the internet existed 100 years ago, people would still be dying of smallpox today.

In regards to cruising did you ever get on a boat prior to the pandemic and wonder whether or not the other 5000 people on the boat had their vaccines?  The answer is no. You got on the boat and had the time of your life.. You got off the boat just fine.  Not once did it cross your mind. 

[orville99]

3 minutes ago, bigdaddyyo said:

Just because they aren't a protected class by law does not mean they do not have rights. 

No one is saying they don’t have rights, just that they don’t have any more rights than anyone else. I have a right not to associate with anyone i choose to avoid, and by law a corporation is defined as a “person”, with the same exact rights as a “natural” person.