Future HAL builds?

[Mary229]

I cannot see CCL resurrecting an old, inefficient ship of any kind.  The engine and materials technology has obsoleted old ships.  Those ships will now be relegated to small niche markets.  I can see them building new smaller ships but they are going to have to charge more per passenger and that might be a viable option.

 

 I certainly enjoy the HAL experience and would be willing to pay more for a smaller ship for some of HAL's unique itineraries.  I simply am not interested in the upscale luxury sailing and HAL could fill that niche.  I am sure there are many people who enjoy the longer, curated journeys but don't want to pay for the added luxury features of Seabourn, Regent and SilverSea.  

 

The longer, curated journeys are best enjoyed and best assigned to a smaller ship and those smaller ships are probably sufficient to satisfy demand.

[Heartgrove]

Hopefully we won't see a Viking clone. They cater to a different traveler and would not have all of the amenities that we have on HAL ships. 

[Sir PMP]

21 hours ago, Quartzsite Cruiser said:

Seth Wayne was on the Koningsdam last month, and during a coffee chat with the cruise director, he was asked about plans for new ships.  He said the next new ship would be a different class than the Pinnacle class, but it would not be bigger.  He did not mention when a new ship build would happen.

 

Frankly, his answer seemed a little contradictory to us.  We remember, when the plans for the Vista ships were announced, being told 1800 passengers would be as big a ship as HAL would build.  Twenty years later, we have the 2650 passenger Pinnacle class.

Seth knows nothing..

[Sir PMP]

20 hours ago, lindaler said:

During a speak from the Captain of the Rotterdam the first week of Jan. he said they listened and put the library back and were planning to build smaller ships like passengers had requested.  He did not elaborate further but there is hope.

Interesting, was that Timmers or van Dreumel? It would bring me back in 5 seconds. They should stop chasing their own tail.

[Sir PMP]

10 hours ago, Boatdrill said:

Here's the current ship order book, through 2027. No HAL ships are listed. 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/cruise-ship-orderbook.html

The big boys keep building the big ones, while Seabourn is building one with 264 pax, go figure..

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I cannot see CCL resurrecting an old, inefficient ship of any kind.  The engine and materials technology has obsoleted old ships.  Those ships will now be relegated to small niche markets.  I can see them building new smaller ships but they are going to have to charge more per passenger and that might be a viable option.

 

 I certainly enjoy the HAL experience and would be willing to pay more for a smaller ship for some of HAL's unique itineraries.  I simply am not interested in the upscale luxury sailing and HAL could fill that niche.  I am sure there are many people who enjoy the longer, curated journeys but don't want to pay for the added luxury features of Seabourn, Regent and SilverSea.  

 

The longer, curated journeys are best enjoyed and best assigned to a smaller ship and those smaller ships are probably sufficient to satisfy demand.

 

I have similar sentiments. In general, I think ships could trend slightly smaller over time IF they can charge more and get passengers onboard. HAL's longer voyages represent the best card in their deck for doing so vs. other lines (e.g., Celebrity or Princess).

 

I have my doubts as to whether this will happen with the brand HAL has become, though. People used to complain even about the cost of sailing on Prinsendam versus other ships in the fleet.  It appears most people want everything....at a cost of next-to-nothing.

[KirkNC]

8 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have similar sentiments. In general, I think ships could trend slightly smaller over time IF they can charge more and get passengers onboard. HAL's longer voyages represent the best card in their deck for doing so vs. other lines (e.g., Celebrity or Princess).

 

I have my doubts as to whether this will happen with the brand HAL has become, though. People used to complain even about the cost of sailing on Prinsendam versus other ships in the fleet.  It appears most people want everything....at a cost of next-to-nothing.

I have been preaching this for five years as HAL gets further and further away and builds bigger ships.  Actions speak far more then words.  I sat through talks with Orlando where he would pander to the world cruise crowd about ships size.  Meanwhile he sold the P’dam and introduced the Pinnacle class.

[lindaler]

2 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

Interesting, was that Timmers or van Dreumel? It would bring me back in 5 seconds. They should stop chasing their own tail.

Van Dreumel at the 4-5 star mariner gathering January 2022

[Hlitner]

A few years ago I posted the thought that "HAL is like a ship without a rudder."  What I meant was that HAL seems to have lost it's way, forgotten what made it a special cruise line, and had sold it's soul to much larger ships.  Since that time I have seen nothing to change my mind.  Another poster suggested (I think wisely) that perhaps HAL should fill the void that exists between Princess and Seabourn.  Some would call this a "Premium" cruise product that would compete in that in between market currently held by lines such as Oceania, Azamara, and VIking.  But I think that "ship has sailed" in that HAL has already committed to larger vessels.   

 

DW and I truly have no reason to book any future HAL cruises (after our 3 times cancelled Asian booking).  We love to cruise and have been on 16 lines (had to recently cancel a voyage on our 17th cruise line).   This gives us a very good idea of the pros and cons of different lines and despite being 5* Mariners we find little to lure us to HAL for future bookings.   These days we look to Seabourn for quality and are giving a lot of consideration to Oceania because of the size of their ships and decent itineraries.  For larger ships we have enjoyed MSC's Yacht Club (the only way we would cruise on that line) and have future bookings with MSC.  We are also excited about the new smaller ship luxury line being developed by MSC (they have 4 vessels on order with at least 2 under construction).  These ships will be approximately 63,000 tons which is a size that should appeal to many long time HAL fans who prefer smaller ships.  I expect MSC's new product (the first ship is to be delivered in 2023) to position itself somewhere between Oceania and Seabourn in terms of quality.

 

Hank

[Mary229]

Mulling this a bit more, CCL may be in a watch and wait mode.  Honestly, some line is going down, I am not going to speculate which line it will be but there will be a major player bankrupting.  It is impossible to see how that won't happen.  

 

If CCL is wise they are pouring through the balance sheets of the lines, looking for weakness, trying to discover where that will happen and which market segment will have an opening.  

 

I think it is time for CCL to put together a comprehensive integrated plan for all of the acquired lines and create distinguishable brands.  I say this as a shareholder not as a cruiser.

[MISTER 67]

Speaking of traditional promenade decks, does anyone know the reason we aren't seeing them anymore. Is it something to do with safety?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, MISTER 67 said:

Speaking of traditional promenade decks, does anyone know the reason we aren't seeing them anymore. Is it something to do with safety?

Quite the opposite.  It has all to do with revenue.  Making more volume inside the ship by reducing the outdoor promenade deck, increases revenue generating space.

[MISTER 67]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Quite the opposite.  It has all to do with revenue.  Making more volume inside the ship by reducing the outdoor promenade deck, increases revenue generating space.

Well, that stinks.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Quite the opposite.  It has all to do with revenue.  Making more volume inside the ship by reducing the outdoor promenade deck, increases revenue generating space.

Unfortunate, but true. The same reason that libraries were getting downgraded as they were not revenue producing space.

[aliaschief]

On 1/16/2022 at 2:44 PM, ski ww said:

Nothing bigger then HAL has now would be nice. Get back to traditional cruise ships with real promenade decks.   

Wasn’t the Promenade changes on new ships required after Concordia and Panama Canal transients?

[AFNavigator]

8 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I cannot see CCL resurrecting an old, inefficient ship of any kind.  The engine and materials technology has obsoleted old ships.  Those ships will now be relegated to small niche markets.  I can see them building new smaller ships but they are going to have to charge more per passenger and that might be a viable option.

 

 I certainly enjoy the HAL experience and would be willing to pay more for a smaller ship for some of HAL's unique itineraries.  I simply am not interested in the upscale luxury sailing and HAL could fill that niche.  I am sure there are many people who enjoy the longer, curated journeys but don't want to pay for the added luxury features of Seabourn, Regent and SilverSea.  

 

The longer, curated journeys are best enjoyed and best assigned to a smaller ship and those smaller ships are probably sufficient to satisfy demand.

CCL already did "resurect" three of its older ships by doing major top to bottom refits, plus smaller refits on the rest of its older ships.  They apparently saw the business case in doing so.

Their refit their 1996 Carnival Destiny for $155M in 2013 to become the Sunshine, 1999 Carnival Triumph became the Sunrise in 2019 at $200M cost, and 2000 Carnival Victory became the Radiance after a $200M 2020 refit.  It is likely many of Carnival's customers don't know those are 20+ year old ships--with 20+ year old engine and materials technology.  Passengers book them because they have the modern features they want at a relatively affordable price.

All I was suggesting about HAL is that, in a very tight fiscal climate, major refresh of some of its ships might be an "affordable" alternative to not having enough funds to build a new class of ships.  A refresh of the Vista-class ships could add more staterooms (more revenue), Tamarind (more revenue) and perhaps Dutch Cafe, Rudi's, or another bar (all more revenue), at less than the cost of a single new ship.

[Oceansaway17]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:40 PM, lindaler said:

During a speak from the Captain of the Rotterdam the first week of Jan. he said they listened and put the library back and were planning to build smaller ships like passengers had requested.  He did not elaborate further but there is hope.

and keep a nice wide wraparound promenade as well as aft pool

[threebluestars]

I really want the big promenade decks back. I loved my time on the Nieuw Amsterdam, so the newer ships with the skinny promenade decks are a serious downgrade for me.

[chengkp75]

22 minutes ago, aliaschief said:

Wasn’t the Promenade changes on new ships required after Concordia and Panama Canal transients?

No.  Nothing was changed on cruise ships in the wake of the Concordia, other than requiring muster to be prior to departure, instead of within 24 hours.

 

As for the Panama Canal, the older boats in the gravity davits that raised the boats over the promenade deck were perfectly fine for the Canal, as they were tucked back inside the perimeter of the hull.  With the new, smaller promenade decks came the horizontal hydraulic davits, where the boats are about half over the side of the hull, so protruding over the hull, and an obstacle to the ship in the locks of the Canal.  These davits were chosen because they allowed the boats to be stored at the promenade deck, and what used to be "obstructed view" cabins on the deck above the promenade (behind where the boats were stored), could now be punched out further to the side of the ship and become balcony cabins (more revenue).  Some Captains on some ships have tried to justify the smaller promenades on newer ships as being because the horizontal davits were required after the Concordia (but they were not), it is still about the revenue.

[chengkp75]

24 minutes ago, AFNavigator said:

All I was suggesting about HAL is that, in a very tight fiscal climate, major refresh of some of its ships might be an "affordable" alternative to not having enough funds to build a new class of ships.  A refresh of the Vista-class ships could add more staterooms (more revenue), Tamarind (more revenue) and perhaps Dutch Cafe, Rudi's, or another bar (all more revenue), at less than the cost of a single new ship.

The major problem with this is that it only looks at the ships from a passenger perspective, with regards to cost.  I am frankly surprised that Carnival went and spent that money on older ships.  When ships reach 15 years old, the cost of the technical side of each drydock (and at 15+ they come every 2.5 years, not 5 years) rises exponentially, which is why most lines sell their older ships to lines that have different business models and tighter profit margins (RCI selling to Pullmantur).

[aliaschief]

38 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No.  Nothing was changed on cruise ships in the wake of the Concordia, other than requiring muster to be prior to departure, instead of within 24 hours.

 

As for the Panama Canal, the older boats in the gravity davits that raised the boats over the promenade deck were perfectly fine for the Canal, as they were tucked back inside the perimeter of the hull.  With the new, smaller promenade decks came the horizontal hydraulic davits, where the boats are about half over the side of the hull, so protruding over the hull, and an obstacle to the ship in the locks of the Canal.  These davits were chosen because they allowed the boats to be stored at the promenade deck, and what used to be "obstructed view" cabins on the deck above the promenade (behind where the boats were stored), could now be punched out further to the side of the ship and become balcony cabins (more revenue).  Some Captains on some ships have tried to justify the smaller promenades on newer ships as being because the horizontal davits were required after the Concordia (but they were not), it is still about the revenue.

Thanks for the professional advice. You have answered a long time question of mine.

[Mary229]

2 hours ago, AFNavigator said:

CCL already did "resurect" three of its older ships by doing major top to bottom refits, plus smaller refits on the rest of its older ships.  They apparently saw the business case in doing so.

Their refit their 1996 Carnival Destiny for $155M in 2013 to become the Sunshine, 1999 Carnival Triumph became the Sunrise in 2019 at $200M cost, and 2000 Carnival Victory became the Radiance after a $200M 2020 refit.  It is likely many of Carnival's customers don't know those are 20+ year old ships--with 20+ year old engine and materials technology.  Passengers book them because they have the modern features they want at a relatively affordable price.

All I was suggesting about HAL is that, in a very tight fiscal climate, major refresh of some of its ships might be an "affordable" alternative to not having enough funds to build a new class of ships.  A refresh of the Vista-class ships could add more staterooms (more revenue), Tamarind (more revenue) and perhaps Dutch Cafe, Rudi's, or another bar (all more revenue), at less than the cost of a single new ship.

I meant buying a ship and retrofitting it as was mentioned prior.  I understand refurbishment of a current asset while it still fits the business model.   That said, I think the new efficiency, is foremost in their thoughts when buying new assets.  Besides efficiency there are likely government regulations to consider also 

[rkacruiser]

I don't think we are going to see a HAL newbuild in any shipyard's order book for some time.  We have to get past the pandemic Covid era and--at worse--the endemic Covid era and an acceptance of that by the traveling public with whatever "the new cruising experience" will be required.  

 

7 hours ago, Hlitner said:

What I meant was that HAL seems to have lost it's way, forgotten what made it a special cruise line,

 

This is my thinking as well.  There is very little differentiation in the cruise product provided by HAL and Princess.  The most significant difference, in my opinion, is the on board activities/entertainment.  Music Walk, Billboard on Board, Lincoln Stage:  these may appeal to a different type of cruiser than those who sail on Princess.  Nothing wrong with this!   What entertainment Princess offers is more like what many of us remember--and enjoyed--than a contemporary dance company.  

 

The history and reputation of HAL would be well suited for a slot between Princess and Seabourn.  A ship of an appropriate size that would fit in that slot ought to be designed.  There are those Seabourn "regulars" who feel that the newest, larger Seabourn ships are less satisfactory for them than the Class that preceded the newest ones.  

 

Carnival Corporation is well known by using a platform for one cruise line's ship newbuilds for another of their operating companies.  Does that platform exist for a new Class of HAL ships that would be smaller than the Pinnacle Class ships?  

 

[Hlitner]

35 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I don't think we are going to see a HAL newbuild in any shipyard's order book for some time.  We have to get past the pandemic Covid era and--at worse--the endemic Covid era and an acceptance of that by the traveling public with whatever "the new cruising experience" will be required.  

 

 

This is my thinking as well.  There is very little differentiation in the cruise product provided by HAL and Princess.  The most significant difference, in my opinion, is the on board activities/entertainment.  Music Walk, Billboard on Board, Lincoln Stage:  these may appeal to a different type of cruiser than those who sail on Princess.  Nothing wrong with this!   What entertainment Princess offers is more like what many of us remember--and enjoyed--than a contemporary dance company.  

 

The history and reputation of HAL would be well suited for a slot between Princess and Seabourn.  A ship of an appropriate size that would fit in that slot ought to be designed.  There are those Seabourn "regulars" who feel that the newest, larger Seabourn ships are less satisfactory for them than the Class that preceded the newest ones.  

 

Carnival Corporation is well known by using a platform for one cruise line's ship newbuilds for another of their operating companies.  Does that platform exist for a new Class of HAL ships that would be smaller than the Pinnacle Class ships?  

 

We are Seabourn newbies having only completed three cruises with the line (with an upcoming 27 day cruise booked).  We have been blessed to have cruised on both classes of their ships and found them more similar than not.  The larger ships carry up to 600 passengers while the smaller vessels carry about 450 but the designs are so similar that SB cruisers can feel at home on either type vessle (a new exploration class ship is soon to come).   But it is interesting that some SB cruisers do complain that the 600 passenger ships are too big :).  Our favorite HAL vessel was the Prinsendam which carried up to 800 :).  But for our HAL friends who have never tried Seabourn I would tell them that HAL is not even close to SB in terms of service and luxury.  While those in Neptune suites do get a very high degree of luxury in terms of their suite, once they leave the suite it is simply another HAL ship.  On SB we never think about happy hours (all the drinks are included at any time) and the cuisine is darn good.  SB has decent entertainment on all their ships and do have the song/dance shows that are gone from HAL.  What is also very interesting about our experience on SB is that we have found our fellow passengers to be even less pretentious then quite a few we have met on our HAL cruises.  Perhaps that was our biggest surprise when we first tried SB and were worried there would be a level of snobbism.  The truth is that on SB we have met nothing but fascinating folks who have nothing to prove and just enjoy being socialable and fun. And that even extends to the crew (including all the senior officers) who seem to enjoy being out and about with the passengers.   One mystery to me is why some folks will spend the very big bucks for Neptune/Pinnacle Suites when they could go on a luxury line for the same or less money.   We have yet to try Silverseas or Sea Dream, but from what we have learned from fellow cruisers on Seabourn we now have those lines on our future radar.

 

Hank

[NCTribeFan]

Those rebuilt/redesigned Carnival ships have a poor space ratio (about 27!).  I've sailed Sunshine twice and appreciated the renovated public spaces, but, man did it feel crowded.  They added cabins but they also built a huge "Serenity" deck, which is very nice (but not at all serene).

 

I know HAL loyalists think the Pinnacle class ships are large.  I don't.  I think they're about the perfect size, although I'm quite happy on Vista & Signature-class ships.

 

I can't see any of the mainstream lines spending to build significantly-smaller ships.  The fares would have to be very high to justify them and there's already lines out there that provide this.  Economies of scale and all that.