Over the top on the Maasdam ..........

They're excellent while flying 55-yr old aircraft ;)

 

 

My favourite flying display team, they look great line a-breast like that.

 

Seriously unless you have flown, as a pilot, it is impossible to comprehend the skill required for formation flying even just straight and level never mind whilst executing aerobatics.

Well, as long as you dudes are engaged in thread-hijacking, I'll join in. Snowbirds are my favorite team too, although (as a yank) I expect I'll catch a lot of flak for this. Love it when they do their line-abreast head-on entry with landing lights on. And, as a pilot, I second your remarks, old mike.

Well, as long as you dudes are engaged in thread-hijacking, I'll join in. Snowbirds are my favorite team too, although (as a yank) I expect I'll catch a lot of flak for this. Love it when they do their line-abreast head-on entry with landing lights on. And, as a pilot, I second your remarks, old mike.

Not so sure it is a full hijacking, as there are loose associations to the topic at hand.

Read the timeline - it is all set as to dates, reports, signage and activities. Today is sunny - Neptune Ceremony day.

 

Today Sept 21, 10 days after the start of the cruise and 8 days after reporting our comments, the activity is continuing is full upper deck view since the lady in the orange bikini bottoms moved her chaise to the Deck 9 aft deck edge next to the railings to be in full public view from the aft of Deck 10. Right after the Neptune Ceremony, when many people are gathered on "Sea View Pool" Deck 10.

 

There is no longer the red sign designating this is a "topless deck" but it remains a "topless deck" - by policy or neglect of policy. Second comment card was submitted to the front desk Sept 21. Welcome to the new Holland America Line - thank you President Orlando Ashford for taking HAL ships out of their stuffy "midwestern" sensibilities and shoving them into Oprah's New Age. .

Due to the slow response after the Front Desk got your first comment card, and the ongoing behavior it certainly appears HAL has changed their policy.

Snowbirds?

We used to love watching the Snowbirds training - they often came south of Moose Jaw near Assiniboia during training. Nothing like them; they're loved around the world!

Hmmm? Sounds familiar, we should discuss the old cistern that became a root cellar for vegetables, on your old farm. If I guessed correctly? Signed Douglas.

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Serious? That's crazy! Wow, small world. We should likely not hijack this thread any longer; email me if you can at ger underscore 77 at yahoo dot com

Smooth Sailing! :) :) :)

I like to look at life through a "humour prism" and, at risk of further hijacking, this thread reminds of a true story I remember reading.

I just wish I could remember where I read it but it went something like this. Some early Anglican missionaries to a foreign tropical country were not happy with the way the local women would go topless all the time and so they brought in a load of T-shirts to distribute to the population. Within a matter of days the T shirts were being worn by all, but with two holes cut in the front because they were too constraining.

What an awesome thread. Lots of interesting perceptions and views on what is and what isn't acceptable.

 

This is way better that the jeans in the dining room discussion. And way better that the usual "What time is second sitting?" or "How much is a bucket of beer?".

 

But seriously, there are way more spectacles around the pools that are harder on the eyes on any given cruise than topless on an out of the way deck.

This is a small, two elevator bank ship. Use of the outside public stairways is a more routine way of getting around this ship than on other ships. This is not taking place on a "out of the way deck". Stop making things up.

The now officially sanctioned female "topless" sunbathing deck 9-aft is not taking place on an "out of the way deck". It is one of the main transit areas for the verandah deck cabins, as well as being in full public view from the Sea View pool aft railings when the topless female sunbathers choose to move their lounger into this intentionally full exposure location. (The entire "topless" aft deck 9 is in full exposure from cabin 220 and 205 "aft-wrap" verandahs.)

Approximately three to four women insist on sunbathing topless on this public aft deck 9 location are the ones controlling this new HAL agenda, regardless of the impact on other passengers public transit or the two impacted cabin verandah use.

Why has HAL put their priorities over other passengers who do not appreciate their control of this public space. Why did an alleged HAL "official" come here and basically lie about HAL policy? Why did HAL not notice passengers who chose cabins 220 and 205 this activity would be part of their own private verandah use experience upfront?

Ship authorities have done nothing to limit this activity nor provide a more properly secluded space for these 4 or so female passengers. Removing the red "topless deck adults only" notice signs on the Deck 9 aft doors, but allowing the activity to continue does not constitute "doing something". Now there are no warnings at all this activity is going on on Deck 9 doors or Deck 10 stairways.

Does this mean the HAL cabanas will now allow topless sunbathing with no need to screen this from other passengers passing by the pool side cabanas or enjoying the exclusive upper deck space cabanas?

Be sure to ask before you book a HAL cabana - is female topless sunbathing in public view okay here too? Or in the alternative, what will HAL do to enforce prohibitions against female topless sunbathing, if it does also take place in the surcharge cabana areas on other HAL ships.

Why do you care about seeing women's breasts? Why do you find that offensive? Presumably you too have breasts, and see them on a regular basis. I'm mystified.

OlsSalt; a suggestion;

This apparently ongoing event is obviously bothering you tremendously. LUK (Let Us Know) cards are great for general comments to Guest Services but, in this case, why don't you ask to speak to (going up the ladder here) a

1. Guest Services Supervisor

2. Guest Relations Manager

3. Hotel Director

and get a clarification

Why do you care about seeing women's breasts? Why do you find that offensive? Presumably you too have breasts, and see them on a regular basis. I'm mystified.

I agree. I don't understand why it is such a big deal? It's not like someone is out on the back deck killing puppies! The women are just exposing a part of their body that in many cultures and societies is quite acceptable. I wouldn't do it but don't begrudge another woman the right to do it. It's not hurting me in any way. I just ignore it.

Why do you care about seeing women's breasts? Why do you find that offensive? Presumably you too have breasts, and see them on a regular basis. I'm mystified.

To the OP’s defence, it’s more than just the exposed breasts. The OP is entitled to their opinion of said anatomy’s public exposure & does not need to defend themselves here IMO.

The issue is HAL’s continued lack of enforcement thus far to an activity being repeatedly undertaken, contrary to HAL’s current policy, in very visible public spaces on this ship.

OlsSalt; a suggestion ... why don't you ask to speak to ... and get a clarification

And, have available photographic evidence to verify your account of the ongoing activity, particularly the public view of this area from your suite, from the deck above, etc. Do not be concerned about any suggested breach of privacy as this is negated by the offender’s election to perform their topless sunbathing in this open public space, in plain view of others, without restriction.

I don't understand why the more traditional "Sky Deck" isn't being used for topless sunbathing. I have nothing against the activity as long as it is respectful of others space and follows the rules. I also have enough imagination and empathy to understand why someone who felt their paid for private space was being imposed upon might be upset by this activity.

I also see no need in insulting OP since if you look back, the question concerning topless sunbathing has been answered in the negative numerous times so one would assume that barring a stated policy change, the policy has not changed in all these years. Why would one expect public topless sunbathing on deck 9?

The easiest solution is for HAL to ask the topless sunbathers to change locations to the Sky Deck which is a more secluded area that does not impede on the private space of others. No tan lines and everyone can enjoy their balcony.:D:cool:

I think Copper’s post is the real “last word” and the OP should take it up the hierarchy as suggested. However, I’ve got to say, it’s a little surprising that in this thread, so many were, well, surprised that someone would take issue with public nudity in a common area of a ship that serves passengers from everywhere. Putting aside other faiths for a moment, one would think, from numerous posts in this thread, that long-held Judeo-Christian mores simply never happened. To me, that is “denial”, and true parochialism.

Putting aside other faiths for a moment, one would think, from numerous posts in this thread, that long-held Judeo-Christian mores simply never happened. To me, that is “denial”, and true parochialism.

Can you explain what you mean? Are you suggesting that among the many French, Italians, Germans, Greeks, Scandinavians, Australians and what have you that might frequent a topless beach, none of them are Christians?

As for mores, things change. I would prefer to align with Pope John Paul II (speaking for the Catholic church), who said: ""The human body can remain nude and uncovered and preserve intact its splendour and its beauty... Nakedness as such is not to be equated with physical shamelessness... Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person... The human body is not in itself shameful... Shamelessness (just like shame and modesty) is a function of the interior of a person."

Yes it was a big deal when Ontario passed the law. My sister in law and some of her friends cruised Lake Ontario on their bosses boat topless. Fast forward over a decade and gravity has taken over LOL.

 

 

 

Pot is legal on October 17th. I would rather nudity then the stench of marijuana. Not looking forward to this new law I tell ya!

 

 

 

Kathy in Alberta

We have been in Denver for a couple of days now. Once in a while you get a whiff of pot; it is not that bad at all.

Can you explain what you mean? Are you suggesting that among the many French, Italians, Germans, Greeks, Scandinavians, Australians and what have you that might frequent a topless beach, none of them are Christians?

 

As for mores, things change. I would prefer to align with Pope John Paul II (speaking for the Catholic church), who said: ""The human body can remain nude and uncovered and preserve intact its splendour and its beauty... Nakedness as such is not to be equated with physical shamelessness... Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person... The human body is not in itself shameful... Shamelessness (just like shame and modesty) is a function of the interior of a person."

I appreciate your sharing of that quote. St. JPII’s “Theology of The Body” is relevant, and maybe I’d better shut up and learn more about that.

Is there anything is writing where HAL states that nude sunbathing is forbidden. Nothing in the cruise contract. Cannot find anything online. That would leave it up to ships rules and the captain.

Sgt Hulka’s line in “Stripes” would be quite appropriate here:

“Lighten up Francis.”

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Is there anything is writing where HAL states that nude sunbathing is forbidden. Nothing in the cruise contract. Cannot find anything online. That would leave it up to ships rules and the captain.

I have looked and found nothing official EXCEPT hearsay. In a thread from a decade ago it was reported someone asked HAL this question and they were told those found topless sunbathing would be asked to cover up. 'Tis all I found. That and $4 will buy you an overpriced cup of burnt coffee. :D

Is there anything is writing where HAL states that nude sunbathing is forbidden. Nothing in the cruise contract. Cannot find anything online. That would leave it up to ships rules and the captain.

I have looked and found nothing official EXCEPT hearsay. In a thread from a decade ago it was reported someone asked HAL this question and they were told those found topless sunbathing would be asked to cover up. 'Tis all I found. That and $4 will buy you an overpriced cup of burnt coffee. :D

Interesting this question was asked as I went looking as well. I can't find anything.

It is entirely possible that the nude sunbathers were spoken to and they challenged it asking where it was stated in the rules?

That being said, I think Copper has given the OP the best advice to follow at this stage.

By definition, Midwestern Sensibilities only make sense in the Midwest. If one chooses to leave the Midwest, then they should expect to encounter values and customs that are different than their own. If that bothers anyone then they should go back to the Midwest and stay there. They should not try to impose their morally oppressive regime upon others that don't hold the same values.

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OlsSalt; a suggestion;

This apparently ongoing event is obviously bothering you tremendously. LUK (Let Us Know) cards are great for general comments to Guest Services but, in this case, why don't you ask to speak to (going up the ladder here) a

1. Guest Services Supervisor

2. Guest Relations Manager

3. Hotel Director

and get a clarification

Thank you. Two guest comment cards have been submitted to the front desk and there has been no change in the ongoing activity. Thank you for the next response hierarchy which is what I intended to do as well. Though I may take it directly to the HM since he is out and about the most, and we never see the Guest Relations person.

Clarification of the policy is number one. Mitigation is number two.

If there is no policy, or enforcement of existing policy disallowing this activity, then female topless sunbathing can go on at any time in any location on any HAL ship. Know before you go.

I would want a change of stateroom if the view was of a topless deck. My verandah time is special with DH -- enjoying sea views with a glass of wine, attention on each other. He would be distracted and I'd get annoyed. Who needs that on a lovely cruise that we paid big bucks for? YMMV...depending on your travel companion and personal circumstances.

Bottom line is HAL should let you know before you go. I'm glad OLsSalt is pressing the issue while onboard.

I would want a change of stateroom if the view was of a topless deck. My verandah time is special with DH -- enjoying sea views with a glass of wine, attention on each other. He would be distracted and I'd get annoyed. Who needs that on a lovely cruise that we paid big bucks for? YMMV...depending on your travel companion and personal circumstances.

Bottom line is HAL should let you know before you go. I'm glad OLsSalt is pressing the issue while onboard.

Thank you and others for comments regarding the issues at hand. We chose the particular cabin and this cruise after a great deal of research simply because it was one of the unique "mini aft-wrap" verandah cabins. No one who had reported on this cabin mentioned anything about directly viewing a female topless sun-bathing deck.

Never in our almost 500 days on HAL ships around the world have we ever been confronted with female topless bathing in public spaces. Those were the "community standards" expectations we went into for this current contract with Holland America Line.

We are now facing a grave disappointment in what we thought of as reasonable expectations - loss of this very special cabin we intentionally chose if a cabin change is offered, or facing continued female topless sunbathing in public spaces and view when using our verandah and the aft staircases.

Why should these topless females have priority over our own expectations, if there is no onboard policy. If the captain can sanction this activity by his won personal fiat, should we have been noticed up front?

Should other HAL customers on any ship be noticed this is shipboard policy upfront and adjust their "sensibilities" accordingly - pro or con. Why wasn't a less public area chosen for this activity, if it is the whim and caprice of every HAL captain?

Who bothered to have those plastic "topless deck adults only" signs pre-made and attached them to the two Deck 9 aft deck doors.

Does this mean anyone can have pre-made signs allowing any activity they want and post them anywhere they want on the ship? "Smoking allowed", "Boom-box zone" In-cabin ironing allowed". "Loud noise after 10pm okay zone" ...etc.

I shall pursue the powers that be today - and waste more of my time dealing with something that HAL should have taken care of by now - either posting notice signs indicating official sanctioning of this activity or stopping it entirely. Thank you to those posters who appreciated the wider issues here, which hopefully will benefit everyone in the future: notice and choice.

I shall pursue the powers that be today - and waste more of my time dealing with something that HAL should have taken care of by now - either posting notice signs indicating official sanctioning of this activity or stopping it entirely. Thank you to those posters who appreciated the wider issues here, which hopefully will benefit everyone in the future: notice and choice.

I’m truly sorry that your cruise enjoyment is being stifled by this activity in immediate proximity to your carefully-selected suite, without due notice nor responsive action thus far by HAL. Thank you for bringing this situation, fairly & respectfully, to the attention of the ship’s management, HAL HQ, & fellow cruisers for everyone’s awareness & consideration.

I hope there is prompt resolve by HAL which clearly defines their position on topless sunbathing in common areas, both on this ship & across the entire fleet. And that you may resume your cruise enjoyment as originally intended.