Formal nights getting really casual ....

[Steelers36]

Smart casual is good then. I guess I was dressing formal after all - even though if I was asked, I would say I wasn't. What are the definitions of formal wear for men then? In Australia that would be a tux.

 

Your question raises a key point - "formal", "business casual", "smart casual", "resort casual", "country club casual", and just plain old "casual" can have different interpretations around the world. But like all cruise lines (as far as I know), Princess only has one definition or set of recommendations.

 

The post this info on the website under Cruise FAQ's here:

Home Page > Booked Guests > FAQ: Know Before You Go > Pre-Cruise > What to Pack > Clothing Recommendations ... or .. http://www.princess.com/learn/faq_answer/pre_cruise/bring.jsp

Edited September 1, 2015 by steelers36

[GUT2407]

A cute dress isn't a formal dress though.

 

It is if it meets the description set by the line in question.

[Pushka]

Thanks for the link. Am I reading it correctly that jackets are required for men even for smart casual?

 

 

Women have so much more freedom. Sweater ok for them - jackets for men. And - sweaters means something a bit different in Australia. They are very casual here - some you would wear with a tracksuit. :eek: See the problem here?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Pushka

[GUT2407]

Perhaps the majority of passengers are aware of formal nights. Being aware of something is not the same thing as agreeing with it. It is possible that a significant number of passengers just put up with formal nights. The lack of enforcement of the dress code indicates that Princess is very aware that Formal Nights are not as popular as some would prefer to think.

 

Designating one MDR as formal would work. At booking, you would state a preference for formal or smart casual and would dress in accordance with the assigned dining room.

 

And, yes, I would like Princess to go Formal Optional on the currently scheduled formal nights. The dress code could remain as is elsewhere.

 

I'm sorry but being aware of it, and booking a cruise, is the same as agreeing to it.

[Steelers36]

Thanks for the link. Am I reading it correctly that jackets are required for men even for smart casual?

 

 

Women have so much more freedom. Sweater ok for them - jackets for men. And - sweaters means something a bit different in Australia. They are very casual here - some you would wear with a tracksuit. :eek: See the problem here?

 

Oh sure I see the problem - from an international perspective. It's like different language may be necessary in Australia to properly communicate. I totally understand. I also have NO IDEA what the observed dress is on Australian cruises.

 

As to the question about jackets required for smart casual. Not at all by any means. Not to say you couldn't find a jacket or two if you strolled around the DR, but it would be very rare. If you check the whole section Princess documents, they use the term "recommendation", and never "required".

 

But here's the text from Princess.com. I cannot make my browser stick on the Princess Australia website - probably because I'm in North American (Canada) and they have country-specific website pages and pricing. Perhaps they DO have different descriptions for the land down-under!

 

Smart Casual

Guest attire should be in keeping with what they would wear to a nice restaurant at home.

 

Skirts/dresses, slacks, and sweaters for ladies

Pants and open-neck shirts for men

Inappropriate dinner wear such as pool or beach attire, shorts, ball caps and casual jeans (with fraying and/or holes) are not permitted in the dining rooms. Shoes must be worn.

Where did you get your text copied in from? There is also a large PDF file on Princess' website called the "Cruise Answer Book". It contains the same thing I posted above. Notice that on the US/Canada website, no mention of jackets for men under "smart casual". That would be something found several years ago I would think.

Edited September 1, 2015 by steelers36

[Pushka]

Where did you get your text copied in from? There is also a large PDF file on Princess' website called the "Cruise Answer Book". It contains the same thing I posted above. Notice that on the US/Canada website, no mention of jackets for men under "smart casual". That would be something found several years ago I would think.

 

 

From the link in your post earlier! Weird hey?

 

I wonder if it flicks to the Australian site?

 

Which means jackets are required on smart casual nights in Australia. Surely not.

[Pushka]

From the link in your post earlier! Weird hey?

 

I wonder if it flicks to the Australian site?

 

Which means jackets are required on smart casual nights in Australia. Surely not.

 

 

Yes. It flicks to the Australian site. When I click on the phone the number displayed is the Australian tel number.

 

And which means that Princess has different definitions for clothing requirements in each country even though booked on the same cruise. Maybe everyone needs to be a bit more tolerant of others clothing then - they may be following the instructions after all.

 

 

Clicking further down on this link I can see information relating to Alaska Landtours. So clearly designed to inform Australian cruisers about International cruises (and not just Aussie based ones) but the dress code info is different.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Pushka

[riclop]

You can thank the airlines.

[Steelers36]

Quite the interesting discovery we made together - oceans apart!! I wonder what the European and/or UK website states? And it's still a recommendation and not a requirement. Practice up on a US accent and you can go with the US recommendation!! :D

 

I think you made a good point about tolerance in general. One poster pointed to your using the word "racial" in an earlier post. That word can easily have a lot of sensitivity attached in the USA, and to a lesser extent in Canada, even if nothing meant by it. Different cultures with different histories have different sensitivities to word choices.

 

 

BTW, my wife and I very much look forward to spending most of one of our winter seasons in Australia after we retire. :cool:

Edited September 1, 2015 by steelers36

[SoCal Cruiser78]

You can thank the airlines.

 

OT: They deserve no thanks whatsoever. I read there was a recent attempt by the airlines to REDUCE the size of allowed carry-ons :(.

Edited September 1, 2015 by SoCal Cruiser78
clarity

[Pushka]

Quite the interesting discovery we made together - oceans apart!! I wonder what the European and/or UK website states? And it's still a recommendation and not a requirement. Practice up on a US accent and you can go with the US recommendation!! :D

 

I think you made a good point about tolerance in general. One poster pointed to your using the word "racial" in an earlier post. That word can easily have a lot of sensitivity attached in the USA, and to a lesser extent in Canada, even if nothing meant by it. Different cultures with different histories have different sensitivities to word choices.

 

 

BTW, my wife and I very much look forward to spending most of one of our winter seasons in Australia after we retire. :cool:

 

 

Really? I didnt see that or I would have clarified. I meant absolutely no offence to anyone and I am sorry if anyone was upset. My direct family is mixed race. A combination of (European) Australian, Sri Lankan and Indian.

 

Using the word 'racial' has no issues here unless it is derogatory. I was merely pointing out differences - based on race - for instance that an Indian lady in a traditional Sari, a Chinese origin person in a Cheong San. Both are beautiful garnents.

 

And when I posted I was actually thinking of a Scottish Kilt as formal wear for a man. (And which I know isn't strictly based on racial origins)

 

Enjoy Australia!

Edited September 1, 2015 by Pushka

[shepp]

Aw, here I am, late to My Favorite Topic.

 

Re: luggage restrictions. Last month we cruised Japan. Because of qualms about wrangling luggage on Japanese subways and bullet trains, we packed a lot lighter than usual. Time to get creative. On formal nights, I wore an embroidered black linen guayabera, linen trousers, a really cool bolo tie, and collapsible black shoes. Husband wore linen slacks, a purple dress shirt, lovely Pucci tie, and black vest. All that took up very little packing space. Was that Up to Princess Code? Um, no. But I think we looked pretty elegant in a non-traditionally-formal way - we actually got compliments - and I believe we looked like we tried.

 

Most importantly, I thought we looked like we'd tried to look nice. I actually don't mind if men don't adhere strictly to code. It's the guys who manifestly don't try, who show up in ratty short-sleeved open-necked shirts and Dockers for formal night, whom I find rather rude. Jeez, how much luggage space does a necktie take?

 

The Japanese are, in fact, a rather polite people, and most of them were nicely turned out for formal nights, most all the men in suits, some women in lovely kimonos. I was happy to feel like I was attempting to look spiffy, luggage restrictions notwithstanding.

Edited September 1, 2015 by shepp

[wowzz]

The UK web-site reads as below. Clear, concise and unambiguous. The real problem would appear to be that Princess do not follow their own rules. If they did, none of this 'I want to wear what I like' attitude would be valid.

You sign up to a cruise, and de facto you agree to the cruise line's t&c's.

 

Formal

When formal nights are held, please observe the dress code in the Traditional Dining and Anytime Dining venues for the enjoyment of all our guests.

 

Evening gowns and cocktail dresses for women

Tuxedos, dinner jackets or dark suits with a tie for men

[Steelers36]

The UK web-site reads as below. Clear, concise and unambiguous. The real problem would appear to be that Princess do not follow their own rules. If they did, none of this 'I want to wear what I like' attitude would be valid.

You sign up to a cruise, and de facto you agree to the cruise line's t&c's.

 

Formal

When formal nights are held, please observe the dress code in the Traditional Dining and Anytime Dining venues for the enjoyment of all our guests.

 

Evening gowns and cocktail dresses for women

Tuxedos, dinner jackets or dark suits with a tie for men

 

The difference we found between Australia and North America was in the "smart casual" description. The "formal" matches.

[Steelers36]

 

But I think we looked pretty elegant in a non-traditionally-formal way - we actually got compliments - and I believe we looked like we tried.

 

Most importantly, I thought we looked like we'd tried to look nice.

 

I bet you guys were just dandy! ;)

[Iamcruzin]

Not another thread on formal nights!!!:eek::roll eyes:

 

People, especially Americans, are sinking to the lowest common dominator. Oh, they will tell you "we're on vacation" and "it's hard to carry formal clothes anymore", but the reality is that they don't care about dressing or formality. They go to weddings and funerals in shorts and t shirts.

 

There may be people who do not feel obligated to wear anything but pajamas and underwear out in public. There are others who do not agree with that and will still dress-because it looks good and it helps serrate one from the pajamas and underwear crowd.

 

As you will see, though the pajamas and underwear crowd really don't care what they look like as long as they are comfortable. (Note, I am comfortable in real clothes so I am not sure what "I just want to be comfortable" means).

 

FWIW

I agree. The dress code in the U.S. has changed so much over the years. My mother has pictures of us when we were still in a stroller wearing a dress and high heels. I asked her where the picture was taken. She told me at a park. She told me that's how she dressed to go to the supermarket. When I was in elementary school (public school) boys had to wear slacks and shoes. Sneakers could only be worn on gym days. I remember girls had to wear a dress of skirt. On winter days with snow they would wear pants under the dress and when they got to school they would remove the pants. Over the years we were allowed to wear jeans and with the women't movement in the 70's it was acceptable for girls to wear boys jeans and sneakers to school. However even with the relaxed dress code in school we still dressed appropriate for special occasions. Now in the 21st century even the work place has become more relaxed, Casual Friday has become casual period. I see young executives late 30's early 40's have given up wearing a tie and jacket or suit. They wear slacks and long sleeve shirt. One executive doesn't wear socks in the summer. With this new trend I have also given up the tie at work.

 

While I don't really care about formal nights we do dress accordingly. My fear is if they give up formal night then smart casual will start to slip as well and eventually the dress code will become a free for all.

[PhoneGoddess]

I am truly not nit picking.

 

What is the definition of formal then? In my 'world' a cocktail dress is NOT formal. A long dress is. On your definition I wore formal every formal night of my recent med cruise - I consider I did not.

 

So I would look at your cocktail dress and think you haven't dressed formal.

 

Isnt that interesting and maybe the crux of the thread - what someone considers formal, others do not. Add in racial and cultural differences and it is no wonder everyone gets in such a lather and how does a cruiseline deal with it.

 

I also agree that the word 'casual' is misleading and should go. Too open to interpretation. Shirts with collar and long slacks and closed shoes for men, long slacks and top/ dress for women and shoes or sandals (no denim or rubber shoes allowed?)

 

Well all that matters is that Princess says that a cocktail dress is formal. They are the host and therefore they dictate what is appropriate. Also, as I mentioned, this was on Carnival and their standards seemed to be a lot lower than Princess'. I felt very overdressed in a cocktail dress, believe me. There was a young couple at the table next to me on formal night and the woman was wearing a swimsuit w/cover up. The man wore a baseball cap on backwards, wife beater and jeans hanging off of his butt so that everyone could see his boxer shorts. But I guess that was ok since he had lots of bling/jewelry on as well. :rolleyes:

 

So again, my point is that anyone can at least make an effort even with luggage fees & restrictions. The people that I take issue with are the ones who refuse to make any effort whatsoever. There just isn't any excuse IMHO. I consider it to be lazy, selfish and disrespectful.

Edited September 1, 2015 by PhoneGoddess

[Grego]

I'm not sure if the argument of taking up too much space or adding weight to the luggage as an excuse for not getting dressed up on Formal Nights. After all, clothing is needed for those two nights anyway and you can double up on the jacket and slacks so all you need is possibly one extra shirt.

 

I'm not suggesting that Princess enforces the formal attire on those nights but rather I would rather see them enforcing a better "smart casual" all the time for the MDR. Keep cruising special rather than a bus trip.

[RocketMan275]

I'm sorry but being aware of it, and booking a cruise, is the same as agreeing to it.

 

Correct, but irrelevant. My comment was in response to an allegation that passengers were aware of the dress code requirements and that implied they agreed with them. As you pointed out, being aware and agreeing are not the same thing.

 

To a certain extent, you're making the same point I was making, ie, that knowing about or agreeing to a dress code is not the same thing as thinking the dress code is a great idea. There are a lot of things in cruise contracts which I would prefer changing. Still, I agree to those items since I have no choice if I wish to cruise.

 

Currently, the formal night dress codes are coercive in that one has no choice, if one wishes to dine in the MDR, but to dress formally. Compliance with coercion only proves that the coercion is effective. If I were to put a pistol to your head and tell you to eat a plate of liver, I cannot claim the fact that you ate the liver proves you like liver.

 

I think, and this is just my opinion, that one reason those who prefer mandatory formal dress codes oppose formal optional is they suspect the majority will prefer not to dress formally. But, regardless of that, the trend is toward formal optional and formal nights will soon be a thing of the past.

 

FWIW, here is the post I responded to: Originally Posted by fishywood: "Actually the assumption I was making is that passengers who book a Princess cruise know what they are in for: just like having to attend the muster drill or live with those tiny showers and whoooosh-ing toilets for the length of their cruise, if you want to eat in the MDR on lobster night you have to dress up. Period."

[Iamcruzin]

We've seen those people on the plane. :eek:

 

They are trying to shove a bag that is way too big into the overhead bin. The take-off is delayed, until a stewardess comes and takes the bag away and makes them check it.

 

As a side note, this is why we like to fly on Southwest. They will let you have two 50 lb. checked bags for free. Then if one should experience turbulence, an over-sized carry-on-bag (that some cheap person refused to check because they didn't want to pay baggage fees) won't come flying out of the bin and hit one on the head.

 

Add like Princess the Airlines are at fault. They should be stopped before they board. We fly jetBlue and until recently they never charged for the first bag. I still packed an appropriate sized carry on for a change of clothing and for medications. We were on the end of the line so buy the time we got on the plane the overhead compartments were full. They wanted to check my bag and I refused because of the medications I was carrying in it. I pointed out the large body bag that was taking up an entire bin and told the flight attendant that she needs to check that bag. Needless to say my bag made it on the plane. I think people purposely bring on large bags knowing that if the airline won't allow it on board it will be checked a boarding for free.

[RocketMan275]

I agree. The dress code in the U.S. has changed so much over the years. My mother has pictures of us when we were still in a stroller wearing a dress and high heels. I asked her where the picture was taken. She told me at a park. She told me that's how she dressed to go to the supermarket. When I was in elementary school (public school) boys had to wear slacks and shoes. Sneakers could only be worn on gym days. I remember girls had to wear a dress of skirt. On winter days with snow they would wear pants under the dress and when they got to school they would remove the pants. Over the years we were allowed to wear jeans and with the women't movement in the 70's it was acceptable for girls to wear boys jeans and sneakers to school. However even with the relaxed dress code in school we still dressed appropriate for special occasions. Now in the 21st century even the work place has become more relaxed, Casual Friday has become casual period. I see young executives late 30's early 40's have given up wearing a tie and jacket or suit. They wear slacks and long sleeve shirt. One executive doesn't wear socks in the summer. With this new trend I have also given up the tie at work.

 

While I don't really care about formal nights we do dress accordingly. My fear is if they give up formal night then smart casual will start to slip as well and eventually the dress code will become a free for all.

 

I understand your point. In the early 90s, a very senior member of management asked me why all the young engineers preferred casual dress? He had studied hard and worked hard to get to the point where he could wear a suit which he saw as distinguishing him from the non-professional workers. He wanted to understand why the younger engineers did not want to wear suits to display their status as professionals. (He also refused a computer since he saw that as a first step to losing another symbol of his status, his secretary.) BTW, he was a very nice guy.

[Pushka]

Well all that matters is that Princess says that a cocktail dress is formal. They are the host and therefore they dictate what is appropriate. Also, as I mentioned, this was on Carnival and their standards seemed to be a lot lower than Princess'. I felt very overdressed in a cocktail dress, believe me. There was a young couple at the table next to me on formal night and the woman was wearing a swimsuit w/cover up. The man wore a baseball cap on backwards, wife beater and jeans hanging off of his butt so that everyone could see his boxer shorts. But I guess that was ok since he had lots of bling/jewelry on as well. :rolleyes:

 

So again, my point is that anyone can at least make an effort even with luggage fees & restrictions. The people that I take issue with are the ones who refuse to make any effort whatsoever. There just isn't any excuse IMHO. I consider it to be lazy, selfish and disrespectful.

 

Yes, that's true. And I agree about the slack dressers. The swimsuit/cover should never have been allowed at the MDR - and am surprised it was. Even on Carnival.

 

Sorry about those huge pictures - I was using the tapatalk app and they look fine - but are huge on a pc....

Edited September 1, 2015 by Pushka

[JimmyVWine]

Perhaps the majority of passengers are aware of formal nights. Being aware of something is not the same thing as agreeing with it.

Not sure I understand that at all. If one is aware of the Formal Night, and makes final payment on the cruise, it doesn't matter if they agree with it or not. They know that they are boarding a ship that has two options, either of which the guest can elect: MDR with appropriate attire or alternative venue is casual attire. Agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant.

 

Designating one MDR as formal would work. At booking, you would state a preference for formal or smart casual and would dress in accordance with the assigned dining room.

It all depends on percentages. Assume a ship with 3 MDRs. And assume that even the Anytime MDRs serve people in such a way that you could view them as having two seatings, an early and a late. That means that there are 3 MDRs with two seatings each, for a total of 6 seatings. A single MDR that is set aside for Formal Night could only handle 2 such seatings, which is 1/3 of the total of diners for the evening. So if the percentage of people who want to observe Formal dining is close to 33%, it could work. It would blow up pre-set tables and dining times, and some people who otherwise dine early would have to dine late and vice versa. And tablemates would be broken up. But it might work. But if the people willing to observe Formal Night exceeds 33%, there would be no room for them. And if the percentage is significantly less than 33%, then the MDR used for Formal Night would be underutilized and the other MDRs would be overburdened. Unless non-Formal folks were moved over to the Formal MDR at which point you have blown up the entire concept.

 

It is suggested above that 60%-70% of guests are still observing Formal Night attire irrespective of the occasional unmade bed or cut-off jean cowgirl. If that percentage is even close to accurate, there is no way that a single MDR could handle the crowd.

 

And making the Traditional Dining Room "Formal" and Anytime "Formal Optional" forges a link between when and how people like to dine with how they like to dress when they dine. And there simply is no such link. Nor should there be.

Edited September 1, 2015 by JimmyVWine

[Steelers36]

Jimmy, you are bang on with the challenge of reserving one DR for formal.

 

And the 60-70% doesn't mean 50-70% observing to letter of the Princess wording. It just means some form of formal attire. I have never observed 60-70% tuxes and dark suits on Caribbean cruises in the past decade.

[Steelers36]

 

i'm not suggesting that princess enforces the formal attire on those nights but rather i would rather see them enforcing a better "smart casual" all the time for the mdr. Keep cruising special rather than a bus trip.

 

+1.