*******Judge's June 3rd Decision re Carnival Corp Sanctions*****

[Host Carolyn]

I'm unpinning this now; hopefully enough time has passed that people will not start other threads on this topic....

 

 

[Organized Chaos]

On 6/5/2019 at 8:21 AM, mredandchis said:

And the idea of having plastic waste on board a ship is a terrible idea.  It all boils down to the convenience to humans.  They have to have their plastic bottle of water and then hope that it makes it to a recycling plant.

 

I'm not bothered by the existence of plastics on board cruise ships. It's going to take a heck of a lot more than changes in the cruise industry to ease the world's dependence on plastics. Carnival Corp.'s decision to eliminate a few things on their ships is designed to make it easier on them and won't even put a dent in the world's plastic use. So I don't think ridding cruise ships of plastics is the answer. We as customers of a huge corporation expect said corporation to abide by federal and international laws regarding those plastics on board ships. There are regulations and laws in place to ensure they don't end up in the ocean. But this corporation has refused to abide by those laws for over two decades now. I don't blame the plastic, I blame the company for not handling it the way the law requires.

 

14 hours ago, jbethel11 said:

No, like how right now on Carnival's desktop website, you can see a little link on top of the screen, and it says, "Cuba update." They should have done the same thing, but with a "Federal Judge threatens Carnival" or something like that. It would have been courteous to us costumes for a direct update from Carnival, maybe even a word for word quote from what John Heald said! But no, they would rather hide it from us, and quite frankly, I agree to some parts of what @Cruisegirl6 noted on other threads.

 

The letter they released was a joke, in my opinion. Buried at the very bottom of the desktop page behind a tiny little link that a vast majority of cruisers will never read. For those who do, it's little more than a PR move. "Look at us, we're taking the proactive steps to get rid of some paper & plastic on our ships to help the environment. Oh, by the way, it has nothing to do with the legal trouble we're in for illegal dumping."

[canes20]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:04 PM, jbethel11 said:

Oh well, another big company almost getting away from their actions:

 

As scooby-doo would say, "I would have gotten away from it if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

It was the bad guy not Scooby-doo that used that line.

[jbethel11]

17 minutes ago, canes20 said:

It was the bad guy not Scooby-doo that used that line.

I was referring to the show, not the character.

[jimbo5544]

45 minutes ago, jbethel11 said:

I was referring to the show, not the character.

Rut ro

[elcuchio24]

Jeez I miss the days our biggest concern was lack of tablecloths! 😄

 

[Micahs Grandad]

I am surprised and disappointed that the judge did not come down harder on the senior management of Carnival Corp. 20 million is a small slap on the wrist.

[mredandchis]

6 hours ago, Organized Chaos said:

 

I'm not bothered by the existence of plastics on board cruise ships. It's going to take a heck of a lot more than changes in the cruise industry to ease the world's dependence on plastics. Carnival Corp.'s decision to eliminate a few things on their ships is designed to make it easier on them and won't even put a dent in the world's plastic use. So I don't think ridding cruise ships of plastics is the answer. We as customers of a huge corporation expect said corporation to abide by federal and international laws regarding those plastics on board ships. There are regulations and laws in place to ensure they don't end up in the ocean. But this corporation has refused to abide by those laws for over two decades now. I don't blame the plastic, I blame the company for not handling it the way the law requires.

 

 

The letter they released was a joke, in my opinion. Buried at the very bottom of the desktop page behind a tiny little link that a vast majority of cruisers will never read. For those who do, it's little more than a PR move. "Look at us, we're taking the proactive steps to get rid of some paper & plastic on our ships to help the environment. Oh, by the way, it has nothing to do with the legal trouble we're in for illegal dumping."

Well Chaos you are correct for the most part.  I just got this thing for plastic and it aint a love affair.  In our 'advanced' state, we have crept backwards.  I still remember a time when we didnt have an issue with plastic in the oceans, but then we did not need plastic.  What I am seeing is all about convenience.  The changes have to be made by the people, that is where the rubber meets the road.  Now Good Ol Carnival made a few changes and yeppers it works out for them also but as I said before it doesnt go far enough but it is a start.  it would be nice to believe that super corp could manage the disposal of every plastic item that is used on every cruise on every ship by everybody.  I am sorry, I cant imagine that happening 100 percent of the time.  So it all boils down to all the cruise ship lines can try and manage all this plastic waste and they will ultimately fail, they may get better but in the end they will fail. I am not trying to beat you up on this.  I just dont think the expectations are realistic.  And you and I can do use the recycle bins each and every time along with all the other people that care and there is still that other group that really dont give a .......  So the problems starts with the customer and the need for convenience in 2019. I need a plastic straw or swizzle stick for my drink,  i need a wood stir stick for my coffee, i need a plastic bottle of water, i need a plastic lid for this and that.  I then expect someone else to handle it when i am done with it.  I think it is time we the people take some responsibility.  

[jimbo5544]

5 minutes ago, mredandchis said:

Well Chaos you are correct for the most part.  I just got this thing for plastic and it aint a love affair.  In our 'advanced' state, we have crept backwards.  I still remember a time when we didnt have an issue with plastic in the oceans, but then we did not need plastic.  What I am seeing is all about convenience.  The changes have to be made by the people, that is where the rubber meets the road.  Now Good Ol Carnival made a few changes and yeppers it works out for them also but as I said before it doesnt go far enough but it is a start.  it would be nice to believe that super corp could manage the disposal of every plastic item that is used on every cruise on every ship by everybody.  I am sorry, I cant imagine that happening 100 percent of the time.  So it all boils down to all the cruise ship lines can try and manage all this plastic waste and they will ultimately fail, they may get better but in the end they will fail. I am not trying to beat you up on this.  I just dont think the expectations are realistic.  And you and I can do use the recycle bins each and every time along with all the other people that care and there is still that other group that really dont give a .......  So the problems starts with the customer and the need for convenience in 2019. I need a plastic straw or swizzle stick for my drink,  i need a wood stir stick for my coffee, i need a plastic bottle of water, i need a plastic lid for this and that.  I then expect someone else to handle it when i am done with it.  I think it is time we the people take some responsibility.  

Nice post, it has to start somewhere, that said I recognize they need to do their part a heck of a lot better than they did.   

[mredandchis]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Nice post, it has to start somewhere, that said I recognize they need to do their part a heck of a lot better than they did.   

oh amen to that, and some of these things that have been done I cant help but think that they intentionally did them , or mismanaged the whole thing, like dumping treated sewage. I have several colorful ways to say they really messed up but I cant say them in mixed company.  

[Micahs Grandad]

12 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Nice post, it has to start somewhere, that said I recognize they need to do their part a heck of a lot better than they did.   

Still amazes me that with all of the lip service they put out about saving the oceans the corporate culture is such that they ignore what they said they would do and just dumped away.

BTW why are wooden coffee stirrers a bad thing?

[Organized Chaos]

On 6/6/2019 at 5:33 PM, mredandchis said:

Well Chaos you are correct for the most part.  I just got this thing for plastic and it aint a love affair.  In our 'advanced' state, we have crept backwards.  I still remember a time when we didnt have an issue with plastic in the oceans, but then we did not need plastic.  What I am seeing is all about convenience.  The changes have to be made by the people, that is where the rubber meets the road.  Now Good Ol Carnival made a few changes and yeppers it works out for them also but as I said before it doesnt go far enough but it is a start.  it would be nice to believe that super corp could manage the disposal of every plastic item that is used on every cruise on every ship by everybody.  I am sorry, I cant imagine that happening 100 percent of the time.  So it all boils down to all the cruise ship lines can try and manage all this plastic waste and they will ultimately fail, they may get better but in the end they will fail. I am not trying to beat you up on this.  I just dont think the expectations are realistic.  And you and I can do use the recycle bins each and every time along with all the other people that care and there is still that other group that really dont give a .......  So the problems starts with the customer and the need for convenience in 2019. I need a plastic straw or swizzle stick for my drink,  i need a wood stir stick for my coffee, i need a plastic bottle of water, i need a plastic lid for this and that.  I then expect someone else to handle it when i am done with it.  I think it is time we the people take some responsibility.  

 

Not all of the blame can be placed on customers’ shoulders. Consumers use plastics for convenience, but producers use plastics because it’s much cheaper. As long as plastics are used in production, people are always going to use them. It takes 2 to tango. 

 

Yeah, on a cruise ship, the company has to take the lead. But that’s mainly because passengers have no choice but to use what the cruise line provides. If it’s plastic, we have to use it. So it’s up to the company to dispose of it all properly.

[jimbo5544]

Really not trying to restir the pot here, but saw this headline about Crystal cruise line banning plastics straws on entire fleet.  Maybe not as trivial an item as some suggested......😎

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/20980-crystal-eliminates-plastic-straws-across-its-entire-fleet.html

Edited June 11, 2019 by jimbo5544

[lottiegreen56]

Just read this, shame the the judge for imposing sanctions like this. Much too open-ended and just creates more room for litigation, keep those billable hours up I guess!

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, lottiegreen56 said:

Just read this, shame the the judge for imposing sanctions like this. Much too open-ended and just creates more room for litigation, keep those billable hours up I guess!

So, what would you propose?  A single fine, and no attempt to get Carnival to improve their compliance?  How well has that worked, since that was the approach used when Princess was fined 26 years ago for the same thing.  There's no "room for litigation", there is implementing an acceptable compliance plan or there are fines.  Pretty simple, really.

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, what would you propose?  A single fine, and no attempt to get Carnival to improve their compliance?  How well has that worked, since that was the approach used when Princess was fined 26 years ago for the same thing.  There's no "room for litigation", there is implementing an acceptable compliance plan or there are fines.  Pretty simple, really.

What is the date for them to submit “their” plan?  

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

What is the date for them to submit “their” plan?  

I believe it is August 16th, or right around there.  If their plan does not meet requirements, then the $1 million/day fines start, and after 10 days, it goes to $10 million/day, and there are further benchmarks that have to be met as far as implementing the plan that will be set when the plan has been submitted, with the same fines for non-compliance.

[Haveuseen1]

You will see that moving from a disposable society to a "reuse/recycle" society is going to raise prices. It cost more to recycle an aluminum can than it does to make a new one.  Glass recycling is the most expensive and why many cities just dont do it.

 

 Straws are you kidding me???  I was just in South Carolina and was at the Isle of Palms beach. Did not see a single straw washed up on the beach and went for really long beach walks. I was also at Folly beach, not a single straw.  I did see the Carnival Sunshine docked at port.  I spend a higher than average number of days on Gulf beaches, and honestly dont remember ever seeing straws washed up on the beaches.  I do find a number of metal tent spikes from the pop up tents, a large number of bottle caps, a good number of caprisun type drink pouches, a good number of matchbox cars, quite a few corkscrews and crushed aluminum cans.

 

These are all just feelgood things. You can say, well we have to start somewhere.  I agree, but lets look at starting somewhere that will make a difference.

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

https://www.ncl.com/travel-blog/norwegian-announces-efforts-to-reduce-single-use-plastics-across-fleet They started this last year. So whats the issue with others doing

the same?

[jimbo5544]

12 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

https://www.ncl.com/travel-blog/norwegian-announces-efforts-to-reduce-single-use-plastics-across-fleet They started this last year. So whats the issue with others doing

the same?

Who implied there was an issue with others doing it?

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

3 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Who implied there was an issue with others doing it?

Hey Jimbo5544, people on here were saying that Carnival was doing it for PR and to " cut costs" and '"Nickle and Dime" I really do not recall seeing them say that about NCL....

[Organized Chaos]

On 6/6/2019 at 7:56 AM, elcuchio24 said:

The cuba news is important to exponentially more people than this dumping news. Maybe not to you, but in general. 

 

While I agree that the Cuba cancellations are definitely important to a lot of people, I'm sure Carnival intentionally didn't put anything about this on their site to avoid bad PR. The statement they did put on the site was buried behind a tiny link in fine print at the bottom of the page and did not mention their legal issues as a reason behind their recent decision to eliminate some of the paper & plastic products on board.

 

1 hour ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

Hey Jimbo5544, people on here were saying that Carnival was doing it for PR and to " cut costs" and '"Nickle and Dime" I really do not recall seeing them say that about NCL....

 

I don't think it was a coincidence that Carnival announced they were eliminating certain paper & plastic products just as the court deal was approved.

[Honolulu Blue]

I remember in my safety drills on Carnival that the announcer (almost always the cruise director) always said something like, "We can only dispose of waste in appropriate areas at appropriate times."  This was after mentioning that passengers throwing stuff off the ship - especially cigarettes - was prohibited.  Obviously there was a bit of irony there.  I don't know if its emphasis was part of previous court rulings/settlements, but I do remember them saying this before the 2016 order.  Perhaps there's a faction within Carnival Corp. that kinda sort of cares about the environment after all, at least a little bit?  I guess we shall see.

 

Anyway, it's something I will pay a little more attention to in the future.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Honolulu Blue

[FiredogCruiser]

51 minutes ago, Honolulu Blue said:

I remember in my safety drills on Carnival that the announcer (almost always the cruise director) always said something like, "We can only dispose of waste in appropriate areas at appropriate times."  This was after mentioning that passengers throwing stuff off the ship - especially cigarettes - was prohibited.  Obviously there was a bit of irony there.  I don't know if its emphasis was part of previous court rulings/settlements, but I do remember them saying this before the 2016 order.  Perhaps there's a faction within Carnival Corp. that kinda sort of cares about the environment after all, at least a little bit?  I guess we shall see.

 

Anyway, it's something I will pay a little more attention to in the future.

 

Personally, I would like to know a whole lot more of the details before forming an opinion regarding the corporate management. I don't doubt that some dumping occurred. But I highly doubt it was ordered or even condoned by the ship management, let alone the corporate management. Whether it was intentional on the part of an individual employee, or accidental, to me would make a big difference. Understanding that CCL is the largest cruise company in the world, automatically makes them the biggest target in the cruise industry for environmental activism. So, is CCL all that worse than others, or simply a bigger target to go after in establishing an environmental dialog? Far to many industrial mole hills have been turned into mountains by over zealous bureaucrats for me to simply accept that CCL has a criminal management team, without more information. And don't get me started on judges with personal agendas! In the meanwhile I will happily continue booking cruises with CCL brands (three on the books at this point).

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, FiredogCruiser said:

 

Personally, I would like to know a whole lot more of the details before forming an opinion regarding the corporate management. I don't doubt that some dumping occurred. But I highly doubt it was ordered or even condoned by the ship management, let alone the corporate management. Whether it was intentional on the part of an individual employee, or accidental, to me would make a big difference. Understanding that CCL is the largest cruise company in the world, automatically makes them the biggest target in the cruise industry for environmental activism. So, is CCL all that worse than others, or simply a bigger target to go after in establishing an environmental dialog? Far to many industrial mole hills have been turned into mountains by over zealous bureaucrats for me to simply accept that CCL has a criminal management team, without more information. And don't get me started on judges with personal agendas! In the meanwhile I will happily continue booking cruises with CCL brands (three on the books at this point).

If you want the details, here is the report of the Court Appointed Monitor for the first year (2018) of the probation:

 

https://www.stand.earth/sites/default/files/US v. Princess. First Annual Report of the Monitor.pdf

 

In very early pages, you will find where the CAM and third party auditors place the blame for the continued violations that occurred during that year of probation.  I will say that most shipping companies have a similar attitude towards environmental compliance, some better, some worse, and it takes a DOJ probation to turn corporate culture around, as I have seen at two companies that were under DOJ probation.  What is unique here, is that Carnival has apparently "not gotten the message" that compliance needs to be met.  The biggest failure of the corporate culture is the fact, noted in the report, that while the corporation had appointed a compliance officer, with the responsibility to ensure a compliance and training plan were implemented, he was given no authority to carry out the plan.  This decision comes directly from the senior management of Carnival Corp.