Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

[All-ready2cruise]

25 minutes ago, TMLAalum said:

The banging on the glass reason for grandpa lifting Chloe to the window bothers me greatly. Banging on glass is not a good thing to let a baby do whether at a hockey game or looking out a window at home. 

I totally agree about the banging on glass, but I'm not blaming, just saying it seems odd to allow a young one to do it.  I also feel that insinuating that being a step-parent or step grandparent makes any difference in a situation such as this, is horrible.  I'm a step-mother and therefore a grandmother of over 10 grandchildren and would never hurt any of them and I bet these grandparents are the same. Feel so badly for the whole family. 

[Laszlo]

19 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

The Today Show used animation to show the area where it happened. No loungers (I think two deep) around the area. Doesn't show the chairs and tables in front of the window. No railing and no differentiation in color. To folks that have never been on a ship and don't realize those things, it's deceiving. It appears that there are no obstacles between the "Splash Zone" and the windows.

 

And I bet that is what the jury will end up seeing. 

[smplybcause]

4 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

And I bet that is what the jury will end up seeing. 

 

From the family, yea. But it's not like Royal is not going to have actual video of the space. Hell the might even have video of how many steps grandpa took and obstacles he walked around to get to the windows. 

[Two Wheels Only]

1 hour ago, Jasonmom said:

When asked about blame, blame the cruise line - "we obviously blame them.  There are a million things that could have been done to make that safer." 

 

1 hour ago, Jasonmom said:

he states she says to those people "get a fan.  Come up with some other mechanism to make your guests comfortable rather than creating a tremendous safety hazard that cost our child their life".

 

1 hour ago, Jasonmom said:

Next on to the lawyer (who has sued cruise lines in the past) who states that there is "no doubt that this was a accident but really the singular question is were there safety measure that could have been in place and should have been in place, and uh, if the were in place there would have been no tragedy". 

 

Something like...putting the window several feet above the ground and putting a railing between the guests and the window?

 

The family (IMO) is trying to save grandpa. If they and the lawyer can make a few $$$ in the process by blaming RCCL, so be it.

 

I'll never believe that grandpa didn't know that the window was open. If "looking outside/banging on the window" was the intention, why put the child above the railing? Why choose that particular spot? The child could see and bang from ground level (like she did at the hockey games) without a lift from grandpa.

 

As old as that ship is, why haven't 6-7 hundred other children fallen through those windows?

[legaljen1969]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:58 PM, tomservo said:

This is exactly why I don’t trust grandparents with young kids in these types of situations....... I could absolutely see one of my kids grandparents making the same kind of mistake this grandfather did. 

 

That being said, that’s not a condemnation of all grandparents, but I know their limitations and either try not to put them situations they can’t handle, or watch my kids like a hawk when they’re with them......This is not the first time a child has died under supervision of a grandparent on a cruise ship.... but I’ve noticed that grandparents often think kids are way more capable of certain things than is age-appropriate.

 

This really is a tragedy, and my heart aches for everyone involved. Anyone could have made this kind of mistake, and I think Royal needs to take the hit on this. Am I going lift my kid up near a railing over the ocean? Of course not. Would I do it near what I thought was a wall of windows? Sure why not. They either need to put some mesh or bars over a tiny random opening in a wall of windows, or make the opening head level or higher.

 

Finally I’m not saying grandparents shouldn’t be trusted with your kids.....mini-treatise on grandparent risk management in potentially dangerous situations (ie any situation that is not reasonably near 100% safe). 

 

TL;DR

I’m a paranoid parent who doesn’t trust kids with grandparents in most situations, and definitely not on cruise ships. 

First of all, you had parents who seem to have done a reasonably decent job raising you.  It is apparent that they were competent to raise you since it appears you made it to adulthood and were able to produce your own offspring.  This is a truly tragic situation for all involved and I am sure the grandfather feels terrible for making a decision that resulted in such a tragic outcome.   This could have happened with a parent who was not as cautious as they might be on a given day.  People of all ages seem to relax their good judgment on vacation, and suspend the reality of the dangers that exist.

 

I also think in our litigation happy society, people are  always in "damage control" and "judgment" mode.  We always have to "blame" someone. So many people are helicopter parents and want their kids wrapped in bubble wrap.   I think a lot of parents get way too uptight about everything not being perfect.

 

I understand this situation involves a toddler who obviously couldn't be expected to make a sound decision, and that the grandparent should certainly have exercised better judgment than not having a tighter hold on that child.   He will feel guilty about this for the rest of his life. It hardly seems malicious and for anyone to say this man deserves to be treated like a criminal seems absolutely heartless to me.

 

However, as to your statement that grandparents think kids are way more capable of things than are age appropriate, that's not really applicable in this situation.  Sure a kid shouldn't be put up and on an open window that high up but that has nothing to do with overestimating a child's capability.

 

I know I did a lot of bone headed things when I was a child and my parents were probably understandably upset  when I got hurt and wished I hadn't gotten hurt but I did things as a child testing my limits- some that were understandable and some that defied logic.  Sure I got hurt at times when I was with my grandparents but it was because "accidents happen," not because my grandparents were incapable of caring for me.

 

My nieces are usually under more vigilant supervision from my parents than from my brother and his wife, and my parents are usually more hyper cautious than my brother and his wife.

[SenatorsFan]

43 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

The Today Show used animation to show the area where it happened. No loungers (I think two deep) around the area. Doesn't show the chairs and tables in front of the window. No railing and no differentiation in color. To folks that have never been on a ship and don't realize those things, it's deceiving. It appears that there are no obstacles between the "Splash Zone" and the windows.

I noticed that too and thought it was very misleading of NBC to portray the situation that way.

Heather

 

[Peachypooh]

I bet if you were to get an honest answer out of Grandpa he DOES feel responsible.

I know he didn't do it on purpose but it did happen. I can't count the number of

times I said a firm no to my parents or in-laws when they wanted to do something

just as dumb and as a result I was called various names. So what...my kids made it

through childhood safely. I wonder about the whole family dynamics of this.

[legaljen1969]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 9:56 AM, April42749 said:

and grandpa will feel even worse and possibly face charges.

And who exactly is going to be the jerk who presses charges against grandpa?  I am guessing no one posting here has ever lost a small child to a tragic but avoidable accident.   While there is definitely some "negligence" involved in such situations, it is not willful killing.  And if you believe it is, then you have a heart of stone and no compassion.

The niece of my best friend lost her child to a drowning accident a couple of years ago.  They had just bought a new house and were having a gate installed around the pool.

Mom (my friend's niece) had taken the children in to take their naps.  They had a 5 year old, 2 year old and a newborn. They had all been playing in the backyard. It was nap time so they retreated inside. She locked the back door when she came in.  Dad came home. Mom and the kids were all sleeping and he went outside to take some pool chemicals out to the poolside. He came back in and, still seeing everyone sleeping, went back out the front door to get more chemicals from father in law's house down the street.  He remembered turning the door lock before he left, like you might do before you shut a door behind you knowing it will lock, but apparently didn't shut the door tight.  At some point, their 2 year old son woke up and saw his daddy's truck in the front yard and saw the puppy in the backyard at the door. He went and opened the door and chased the puppy over toward the pool and fell in.   When the father got back from picking up the other pool chemicals down the street, he heard the puppy barking by the pool and saw their son had drowned.

Of course there was an autopsy and investigation, but no foul play was found and thus no charges filed.  Both parents and the older brother have undergone much counseling and it has been a struggle. Sure there is blame cast around and sure there are hard feelings, but thankfully it did not break up the family. 

There is going to be much healing that must be done for this family who lost their toddler and much to be healed with the grandfather.  There is pretty  much nothing that they could do to this grandfather that would imprison him more than the guilt which will imprison his mind and heart for the rest of his life.

[legaljen1969]

56 minutes ago, All-ready2cruise said:

I also feel that insinuating that being a step-parent or step grandparent makes any difference in a situation such as this, is horrible.  I'm a step-mother and therefore a grandmother of over 10 grandchildren and would never hurt any of them and I bet these grandparents are the same.

I completely agree with this.  It is the rudest and most disrespectful way of treating step-parents or grandparents.  Not every step parent is the evil stepmother in Cinderella.  Not everything grandparent is a senile train wreck.  The way this is being portrayed is just sickening. 

 

How about those of you who are acting like grandparents are complete idiots take a little time to remember that your parents managed to get you to adulthood and you turned out just fine?  If your parents were bad parents, my guess is you wouldn't be taking a family vacation with them in the first place. 

And for all of you talking about how you have had to "scold" your parents/ your children's grandparents for not keeping an eye on your children, then where are you? Why ever leave them in the hands of people you consider to be so bad?

 

It is disgusting the way people are acting.

[Two Wheels Only]

9 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

Of course there was an autopsy and investigation, but no foul play was found and thus no charges filed.

 

The example given is very different from the RCCL example. The dad didn't intentionally leave the door open. The grandpa did intentionally lift the child over the railing.

 

If the child had fallen backwards and landed at grandpa's feet but the impact still killed the child, would the parents still blame RCCL for not having padded floors?

[Casino Comp Chick]

It was heartbreaking to watch the mother, I cannot imagine how she feels but if she is going to blame anyone blame the person who put her in front of the open window 11 stories up.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Casino Comp Chick

[gooch47]

I believe the family has to blame the cruiseline.  In their minds, blaming the grandfather would be unimaginable.

[UFMOM]

As a grandparent to a 4 year old, I have to say that there are no blanket statements that can cover childcare by grandparents. Just like parents, they are all different with varying abilities and outlooks. Your child’s grandparents will differ from everyone elses. You know your own better than anyone and are best placed to make a decision about their level of care for your children. That being said, We have watched our granddaughter a LOT. I would say I an hyper vigilant. I have taken child and infant CPR courses and have poison control on my phone and know the quickest route to the ER. I still cut her food up in much smaller pieces than needed for her age and watch her like a hawk when she is with me. We have a lot of fun too. We like to read together where the worst that can happen is a paper cut. She has been on 3 Disney cruises with us and her parents, all in balconies. I am the one always double checking the lock on the balcony door and she does not go on the balcony without an adult right there, even though she is not over adventurous or a climber. I know I do a much better job than some of the inattentive behavior I have seen from some parents. So bad child care can happen with parents, grandparents and babysitters. Each one is different and should be evaluated individually.

 

 

Mary Ann

 

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, TMLAalum said:

The banging on the glass reason for grandpa lifting Chloe to the window bothers me greatly. Banging on glass is not a good thing to let a baby do whether at a hockey game or looking out a window at home. 

 

Thank you.

 

I was baffled by the photo shown somewhere of the child "standing up [on someone's lap/thigns?] leaning on the window at the hockey rink", although it isn't clear if she is "banging" or not.

Regardless, this is inappropriate.

For one thing, safety aside (and it should NEVER be "aside", as should be abundantly clear!), she's blocking the view of others.  She's probably leaving handprints everywhere, which will also interfere with the view from others up close.

 

AND... it does teach the child that it is OKAY to lean on high windows, which a CHILD might mistake when "open" (whether or not a family member PLACES HER THERE).

It's teaching several wrong lessons, and also just inappropriate.

 

Sure, she may enjoy it more.  *I* might enjoy it more if I just stand right in front of someone, too!  "Duh!".

 

If the parent said the they/the grandfather "at no point ever, ever..." put the child in danger.

Well... um.... er.... really?  NEVER?

 

As the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta HMS Pinafore lyrics include...

"What, never? / No, never! / What, never? / Well, hardly ever!"

 

GC

 

 

 

[karrie3399]

On 7/9/2019 at 7:32 PM, NLH Arizona said:

What I don't understand is while they are grieving the death of their child, the first thing they do, probably before they bury her, is to call an attorney. Just shows what our society has come to:  blame someone else and try to make money.  Sad.

 

May the little girl RIP.

 

 

 

Exactly!!!!  That poor child isn't even cold and they called and attorney.  They should have called the police and arrested that poor grandfather who will NEVER be able to at look himself in the mirror again.  It's probably easier to blame the cruise line then to blame your father or father in law for being the stupidest human on the planet.   I know that sounds harsh, but come on.  The windows are clearly tinted green.  And isn't there a breeze or some sort of sound from an open window?  And wasn't he holding her?  Too many unanswered questions.  I just have to think that nobody is really that stupid.  With all the entertainment around, why do that with the baby?  Was the baby crying?  There has to be more to the story.

Whatever happened on that ship we will probably never know.  I hope they get nothing from RC.  More importantly, I hope that baby rest in sweet heavenly peace. ❤️

[legaljen1969]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 8:30 PM, nafanny29 said:

So tragically someone threw their gran-daughter off the ship, out of a high open window, all be it "as claimed" by a big accident, and somehow its the cruise lines fault.  ***** seriously!!! 

 

 

Are you flipping kidding me?  He "threw" his granddaughter off the ship?  Come on.  He had bad (terrible) judgment and put her up high. She reached out and somehow fell- whether she wriggled away, he lost his grip, she lunged.  That's hardly "throwing her" off the ship.

[legaljen1969]

3 minutes ago, karrie3399 said:

 

Exactly!!!!  That poor child isn't even cold and they called and attorney.  They should have called the police and arrested that poor grandfather who will NEVER be able to at look himself in the mirror again.  It's probably easier to blame the cruise line then to blame your father or father in law for being the stupidest human on the planet.   I know that sounds harsh, but come on.  The windows are clearly tinted green.  And isn't there a breeze or some sort of sound from an open window?  And wasn't he holding her?  Too many unanswered questions.  I just have to think that nobody is really that stupid.  With all the entertainment around, why do that with the baby?  Was the baby crying?  There has to be more to the story.

Whatever happened on that ship we will probably never know.  I hope they get nothing from RC.  More importantly, I hope that baby rest in sweet heavenly peace. ❤️

WHY should the grandfather have been arrested?   What he did was a terrible tragedy but I am not seeing anything that leads me to believe he once for a minute thought "You know what would be fun? You know what would make me happy? I think I am going to lift my grandchild up to an open window and watch  her plummet to her death.  It's going to be so wonderful watching her mother scream in agony and see her splat on the pavement. Yep, that's what I want to do on my cruise."  Give me a freaking break.

Edited July 22, 2019 by legaljen1969

[grouchomarx]

I think seeking media attention after a tragedy like this is grotesque.  It is bad enough Grandpa killed the child through his negligence but now they are fame seekers and looking to sue?  Go mourn your child and try to salvage the last bit of self respect you have.  It is not the fault of the cruise line. Babies would be crashing to the ground all the time.  People kill kids sometimes. They back over them, drop them, lave them in hot cars etc. It is horrible but trying to blame someone else for what is clearly your fault does not make it better, it makes it worse.  And now they are known to the world and will be judged whereas if they could have just quietly mourned this loss out of the limelight, they could get their lives back sooner.  Now they're "that family" who dropped the baby.

[Pauser]

1 hour ago, JennyB1977 said:

The Today Show used animation to show the area where it happened. No loungers (I think two deep) around the area. Doesn't show the chairs and tables in front of the window. No railing and no differentiation in color. To folks that have never been on a ship and don't realize those things, it's deceiving. It appears that there are no obstacles between the "Splash Zone" and the windows.

 

True. But it clearly showed that the windows were green, and when opened, it was a clear space. To me it was obvious where the windows were opened. I understand how these parents must be feeling - my heart goes out to them. But it really just seems like the grandfather made a poor decision and there were terrible consequences which none of them can quite come to terms with. The insurance company for the cruise line will probably just settle with them as there would be much negative publicity in fighting a family that lost a young child so tragically. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Pauser
Finsih sentence

[ColeThornton]

Amazing to read the first hand accounts of people who know all the details and are subsequently able to berate others opinions.  Personally, I'm still trying to figure out what the heck this has to do with sailing on Norwegian Cruise Line. 

 

Answer:  Absolutely nothing.

Edited July 22, 2019 by ColeThornton

[karrie3399]

Just now, legaljen1969 said:

WHY should the grandfather have been arrested?   What he did was a terrible tragedy but I am not seeing anything that leads me to believe he once for a minute thought "You know what would be fun? You know what would make me happy? I think I am going to lift my grandchild up to an open window and watch  her plummet to her death.  It's going to be so wonderful watching her mother scream in agony and see her splat on the pavement. Yep, that's what I want to do on my cruise."  Give me a freaking break.

 

People are arrested all the time where I live for negligence.  I never said he threw the baby out of the window.  I said the story didn't make sense.  that there is more.  Youre just filling in my blanks with your own.  But we seem to agree.  There are blanks

[karrie3399]

1 minute ago, Pauser said:

True. But it clearly showed that the windows were green, and when opened, it was a clear space. To me it was obvious where the windows were opened. I understand how these parents must be feeling - my heart goes out to them. But it really just seems like the grandfather made a poor decision and there were terrible consequences which none of them can quite come to terms with. The insurance company for the cruise line will probably just settle with them as there would be much negative publicity in fighting a family that lost a young child. 

 

It's actually very difficult to sue a cruise line because of Maritime law.  I actually don't think that they will settle.  Only time will tell.  It will go away and nobody will ever hear about it again.

[legaljen1969]

18 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

The example given is very different from the RCCL example. The dad didn't intentionally leave the door open. The grandpa did intentionally lift the child over the railing.

 

If the child had fallen backwards and landed at grandpa's feet but the impact still killed the child, would the parents still blame RCCL for not having padded floors?

My point is more to the fact that it was a tragic accident from which this family will suffer for a long time.  I don't believe for one second that the grandfather had any premeditation to kill that baby. He made a tragic error and lapse of judgment that resulted in the child's death. 

Yes, he intentionally lifted the child up and yes it was a dangerous place but to me that is very different than planning to kill the child.  That's what you and everyone else who have said it is intentional is saying.  What about a parent who intentionally takes their child out on a bicycle ride and another motorist is negligent and runs off the road or misses a stop sign? What if they intentionally have to cross the road to get somewhere and someone else isn't looking closely? Is that parent negligent because they intentionally took their child outdoors?  They exposed their child to a dangerous situation. Must be negligent. 

I live in a coastal community where people vacation. A LOT of people ride bikes on their vacation around our island.   There are bike paths and even little stop signs along the bike paths to show people where to stop.  But people just pull right out all the time in front of cars.  They just do whatever the heck they please and often they have tandem bikes and small children on bikes with training wheels.  They intentionally ride bikes every day.  I don't think they are intentionally negligent and intentionally put their children in harm's way. I think they are, like many vacationers, suspending their good sense when they go on vacation. It's like a fantasyland where nothing bad can happen because they are on vacation.   Every year without fail there are many bicycle injuries and usually at least one death because someone wasn't using their good judgment.  And usually no one is criminally charged with anything because it was a tragic accident.  Sure there is usually some civil liability to these incidents, but intention- not usually.

[legaljen1969]

11 minutes ago, karrie3399 said:

 

People are arrested all the time where I live for negligence.  I never said he threw the baby out of the window.  I said the story didn't make sense.  that there is more.  Youre just filling in my blanks with your own.  But we seem to agree.  There are blanks

I just don't know who will insist on the grandfather going to prison for such a tragic accident.   I guess if I were on the jury, there would be a hung jury because there is no way I am voting to send this grandfather to prison for something like this. Its a terrible thing, but when there are people out there selling their babies for meth and they aren't going to prison and this grandfather who had a terrible lapse of judgment is being condemned- there is something wrong with our world.

[Two Wheels Only]

34 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

"What, never? / No, never! / What, never? / Well, hardly ever!" 

 

Give 3 cheers and 1 cheer more...I can't believe that I still remember that play from middle school.