JUST IN: CONSTELLATION FEB. 16 EMBARKATION PORT CHANGE

[Fouremco]

17 minutes ago, flagger said:

Most insurance offers no coverage due to an epidemic outbreak.

If your insurance doesn't cover you, fine, say so, or even say "some insurance...", but please don't extrapolate to "most insurance..." My travel insurance has no exclusion for epidemic outbreaks, and several others have posted similar information on this board.

[Pushka]

38 minutes ago, LXA350 said:

This is the by far most cilized / Westernized country in Asia and the local authoriites are really doing the utmost to get the virus under control, hence before Singapore will get a travel ban other countries will be before.

So why did Celebrity pull the pin on it? The itinerary need not have changed except for excluding Phuket as a port. 

[cruiserchuck]

1 minute ago, Pushka said:

So why did Celebrity pull the pin on it? The itinerary need not have changed except for excluding Phuket as a port. 

 

I suspect they pulled out of Singapore because it currently has the highest per capita rate of infection for the Coronavirus.  The per capita rate there is about 1.5 times the rate in Hong Kong.  Celebrity barred passengers who had recently been to Hong Kong about two weeks ago.  

[Jim_Iain]

I don't have any personal knowledge but believe it may be related to happenings in Thailand and other ports affecting Westerdam.    She is currently being  denied docking in Thailand ports.    This ship from my understanding has had all of their ports cancelled.    Ugh.....

 

Even thought there has been no cases aboard they have been denied landing in Hong Kong and Philippians and only advised overnight about Thailand.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-11/westerdam-cruise-to-port-in-bangkok-after-being-stuck-at-sea/11950230

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Jim_Iain

[Pushka]

Just now, cruiserchuck said:

 

I suspect they pulled out of Singapore because it currently has the highest per capita rate of infection for the Coronavirus.  The per capita rate there is about 1.5 times the rate in Hong Kong.  Celebrity barred passengers who had recently been to Hong Kong about two weeks ago.  

Yes, they did. I had to rebook a flight because I was merely in transit and would have been excluded from our cruise if this extends for a couple of months. But I think this move is currently purely discretionary on Celebrities behalf at this point in time. And must therefore wear that cost just as it does for those who were involved in the HK/China/Macau issue where they receive a refund. 

[Pushka]

Just now, Jim_Iain said:

I don't have any personal knowledge but believe it may be related to happenings in Thailand and other ports affecting Westerdam.    She is currently being docking in Thailand ports.    This ship from my understanding has had all of their ports cancelled.    Ugh.....

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-11/westerdam-cruise-to-port-in-bangkok-after-being-stuck-at-sea/11950230

 

Westerdams issue was that it ported in Hong Kong and people disembarked and embarked there. Nothing to do with Singapore. 

[Jim_Iain]

2 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Westerdams issue was that it ported in Hong Kong and people disembarked and embarked there. Nothing to do with Singapore. 

You are correct but Constellation also has two port in Thailand.    oops HAD 2 ports scheduled in Thailand

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Jim_Iain

[flagger]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

If your insurance doesn't cover you, fine, say so, or even say "some insurance...", but please don't extrapolate to "most insurance..." My travel insurance has no exclusion for epidemic outbreaks, and several others have posted similar information on this board.

 

Fact

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/feeds.aarp.org/travel/travel-tips/safety/info-2020/insurance-coronavirus-coverage.html%3f_amp=true

[wrk2cruise]

I think this article give some good information based on what I've been reading over on the CC Cruise Insurance board.   Take Corona Virus out of the picture and I guess you could say that "most insurance" wouldn't cover you for deciding that things have changed and you no longer which to take the trip.   If you want to have this type of protection you need to buy CFAR insurance which I assume isn't the type of insurance "most" buy giving the increased cost leading to your "most insurance" statement.   From what I've read on the insurance board from respected travel insurance experts is that while even CFAR policies might not cover Corona Virus as the stated reason for cancellation you don't need to specify this and just specify "I changed my mind" which is covered.

 

Also interesting is if you bought "most insurance" prior to a date in late January (20 or 22nd) and you travel and have medical/trip interuption due to Corona Virus you ARE covered as it was not a "known event" when you purchased.

 

Very enlightening information on the travel insurance board.  I would encourage people who buy travel insurance to take a read.

[Bo1953]

6 hours ago, nomad098 said:

For those that booked in the UK/EU I would point out this 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/634/regulation/11/made

 

Alteration of other package travel contract terms

11.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) The organiser must not unilaterally change the terms of a package travel contract before the start of the package, other than the price in accordance with regulation 10, unless—

(a)the contract allows the organiser to make such changes;

(b)the change is insignificant; and

(c)the organiser informs the traveller of the change in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium.

(3) Paragraphs (4) to (11) apply where, before the start of the package, the organiser—

(a)is constrained by circumstances beyond the control of the organiser to alter significantly any of the main characteristics of the travel services specified in paragraphs 1 to 10 of Schedule 1;

(b)cannot fulfil the special requirements specified in paragraph 1 of Schedule 5; or

(c)proposes to increase the price of the package by more than 8% in accordance with regulation 10(4).

(4) The organiser must, without undue delay, inform the traveller in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium, of—

(a)the proposed changes referred to in paragraph (3) and, where appropriate, in accordance with paragraph (7), their impact on the price of the package;

(b)a reasonable period within which the traveller must inform the organiser of the decision pursuant to paragraph (5);

(c)the consequences of the traveller’s failure to respond within the period referred to in sub-paragraph (b); and

(d)any substitute package, of an equivalent or higher quality, if possible, offered to the traveller and its price.

(5) The traveller may, within a reasonable period specified by the organiser—

(a)accept the proposed changes; or

(b)terminate the contract without paying a termination fee.

(6) Where the traveller terminates the contract pursuant to paragraph (5)(b), the traveller may accept a substitute package, where this is offered by the organiser.

(7) Where—

(a)the changes to the package travel contract referred to in paragraph (3), or

(b)the substitute package referred to in paragraph (6),

result in a package of lower quality or cost, the traveller is entitled to an appropriate price reduction.

(8) Where—

(a)the traveller terminates the contract pursuant to paragraph (5)(b), and

(b)the traveller does not accept a substitute package,

the organiser must refund all payments made by or on behalf of the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the contract is terminated.

(9) Where paragraph (8) applies, regulation 16(2) to (10) applies.

(10) Where the traveller does not confirm, within the period specified in paragraph (5), whether the traveller wishes to—

(a)accept the proposed change, or

(b)terminate the contract,

in accordance with that paragraph, the organiser must notify the traveller, a second time, of the matters in sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (4).

(11) If, having been notified under paragraph (10), the traveller fails to respond, the organiser may terminate the contract and refund all payments made by or on behalf of the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the contract is terminated.

 

Would probably be worth a call to Celebrity to point this out and if you booked in the UK stating your next call would be to ABTA as per your cruise contract to lodge a formal complaint. In the EU I believe it is the EU Online Dispute Resolution ( ODR )

I trust everyone in the EU/UK has read the COC as per 11-2 (a), how does that read, I bet it reads quite similar to that of the U.S. version...

 

But I know someone in the UK/EU can confirm this to us.

 

bon voyage

[Pushka]

2 hours ago, Jim_Iain said:

You are correct but Constellation also has two port in Thailand.    oops HAD 2 ports scheduled in Thailand

 

Indeed - one being Phuket as I mentioned in the first post I made, but that could have been managed with sea days instead of sending them across the oceans to board, pretty much at the customers expense to fly there because the amount offered wouldnt have come close to covering our cancellation fee let alone book a new flight. 

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, flagger said:

 

Fact

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/feeds.aarp.org/travel/travel-tips/safety/info-2020/insurance-coronavirus-coverage.html%3f_amp=true

Thanks, that link supports exactly what I said. Or perhaps you missed the paragraph that states:

 

"Some insurance companies explicitly state epidemics and pandemics as excluded reasons for canceling a trip."

 

That's "Some", just as I said, not "most" as you claimed.

 

 

[Jim_Iain]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

Indeed - one being Phuket as I mentioned in the first post I made, but that could have been managed with sea days instead of sending them across the oceans to board, pretty much at the customers expense to fly there because the amount offered wouldnt have come close to covering our cancellation fee let alone book a new flight. 

Curious as to what your change fee would be assuming you could change your flight to a new destination.

  

I am not on this cruise but for my upcoming cruise I booked with Flights by Celebrity and have a cancellation or change fee is $200 US after final cruise payment.   The real kicker would be for me that the cost of a Business Class would be about $2,000 more to Dubai than Singapore (each way).  Ouch...

[rols]

4 hours ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

I suspect they pulled out of Singapore because it currently has the highest per capita rate of infection for the Coronavirus.  The per capita rate there is about 1.5 times the rate in Hong Kong.  Celebrity barred passengers who had recently been to Hong Kong about two weeks ago.  

yeah but the change doesn't really make sense however. If they were concerned that somewhere in the next couple of weeks Singapore will be added to the "no travellers there in the previous 14 days" list and that would stop the ship being accepted in ports, they are going to have that problem anyway as many people will now land in Singapore and then travel to Dubai to board. So even though the ship hasn't been to Singapore, 1/4 of the passengers will have (1/4 is my rough guesstimate). 

 

I'm not actually sure whether or when Singapore is going to get onto the banned travel list. HK ended up on it because of the proximity to the mainland and their slow start sealing the border. Taiwan ended up on it I can only think because of politics. Definitely if case numbers start to dramatically rise, it's a definitely maybe. 

[Pushka]

27 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

Curious as to what your change fee would be assuming you could change your flight to a new destination.

  

I am not on this cruise but for my upcoming cruise I booked with Flights by Celebrity and have a cancellation or change fee is $200 US after final cruise payment.   The real kicker would be for me that the cost of a Business Class would be about $2,000 more to Dubai than Singapore (each way).  Ouch...

Indeed. And if we fly Business class we obviously pick the cheapest discount fares that have the significant penalty rate for cancellation and even amendments. But even flying in Economy the costs would be I think in the order of well over a thousand dollars each for Aussies because it is a one way fare to Dubai. I think Celebrity’s offer is meaningless because they could have simply changed to sea days and still left from Singapore. There are no additional warnings there now for them to need to change that embarkation point. 

Changing the destination of a flight is the same as cancellation as it’s considered a new booking unless it is a points award flight in which case it’s a change fee of 5000 points. However changing an award flight depends on availability and the award flights to Dubai get snapped up a year in advance. In this instance they’d therefore have to cancel their award flight and pay for a new one way flight. I just checked on Emirates site for a one way fare and for economy the cheapest is $1400 per person which is around $1100USD. So there is over $2000 USD right there, let alone cancellation penalty on the original Singapore flight. 

And yes, we ended up paying a motza when we had to get rid of our HK transit and are now flying on Qatar through Doha. No recompense for that change we had to make because of Celebrities refusal to allow transit passengers to board. At least we had notice and even though it’s in the future I can’t see the policy relaxing before our cruise and we don’t want to do the panic purchase these people must be doing right now. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Pushka

[Jim_Iain]

Definitely understand your being upset and truly understand your frustration.   Hopefully they will up the offer once aboard or prior.   We were evacuated from Millennium in Japan last year due to a Typhoon.  Initially they said they would give us a free hotel and reimburse use for our out of pocket expense.   They later gave us a refundable credit equal to one night of your room rate.   The cruise was later disrupted by a second typhoon and they gave us an additional 1 days fare in the form of a Future Cruise Certificate. 

 

I think that the more noise passengers make via e-mail to Celebrity President, Social Media and here may result in a better compensation. 

[cruiserchuck]

19 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

I think that the more noise passengers make via e-mail to Celebrity President, Social Media and here may result in a better compensation. 

 

Given that Princess and HAL have cornered the market on bad publicity/negative news, Celebrity may get a pass for now on how they are sticking it to their customers.

[DYKWIA]

3 hours ago, Jim_Iain said:

Curious as to what your change fee would be assuming you could change your flight to a new destination.

  

I am not on this cruise but for my upcoming cruise I booked with Flights by Celebrity and have a cancellation or change fee is $200 US after final cruise payment.   The real kicker would be for me that the cost of a Business Class would be about $2,000 more to Dubai than Singapore (each way).  Ouch...

 

2000 extra passengers trying to get to Dubai, maybe a lot of them from Singapore, maybe all within a small time frame - there might not be that many seats available.  Abu Dhabi is very close that could be an alternative.

Edited February 12, 2020 by DYKWIA

[upwarduk]

3 hours ago, Jim_Iain said:

I think that the more noise passengers make via e-mail to Celebrity President, Social Media and here may result in a better compensation. 

IMO Social Media gets very quick results.

We once cancelled a cruise. I knew we would loose our deposit, as per UK T&C, but I was shocked when I was asked to pay the air IN FULL. It had come with the booking and we had paid nothing for air, we were told we would pay at final payment.

I couldn't find  this in the T&C and it was no where in writing in the brochure or on my invoice. After many phone calls I protested via Celebrity’s Social media site. I had a phone call within 2 hours to say that ‘ I would not be charged for the flight’ in this instance.

 

BTW the UK business man who contracted the virus in Singapore while on a business trip, 20-22nd Jan has now recovered. This is very positive news, even though others who were with him on a ski trip in Austria, have also contracted the virus. Maybe, the rapid spread to his contacts, led to Celebrity taking the decision not to go to Singapore.

[GastroGnome]

7 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

I trust everyone in the EU/UK has read the COC as per 11-2 (a), how does that read, I bet it reads quite similar to that of the U.S. version...

 

But I know someone in the UK/EU can confirm this to us.

 

bon voyage

 

This is indeed the problem.  X's conditions of cariage - the contract - expressly allows for X to make changes.  The ABTA rules allow for that.

 

The Consumer Credit regulations may apply for anyone who has paid by Credit Card on the basis that the product received was not that paid for.  And some Travel Insurance (just checked mine..) does hold for flight changes  / cancellations in the event of pandemic.  I'll bet a lot of providers are changing their terms for new buisness though.  Thankfully we have annual insurance which renewed before all this started!

[clojacks]

8 minutes ago, upwarduk said:

IMO Social Media gets very quick results.

We once cancelled a cruise. I knew we would loose our deposit, as per UK T&C, but I was shocked when I was asked to pay the air IN FULL. It had come with the booking and we had paid nothing for air, we were told we would pay at final payment.

I couldn't find  this in the T&C and it was no where in writing in the brochure or on my invoice. After many phone calls I protested via Celebrity’s Social media site. I had a phone call within 2 hours to say that ‘ I would not be charged for the flight’ in this instance.

 

BTW the UK business man who contracted the virus in Singapore while on a business trip, 20-22nd Jan has now recovered. This is very positive news, even though others who were with him on a ski trip in Austria, have also contracted the virus. Maybe, the rapid spread to his contacts, led to Celebrity taking the decision not to go to Singapore.

After reading the comments about airing concerns on social media, I tried to see what activity there has been on Facebook and Twitter in Celebrity accounts, and in view of the recent issues, I couldn’t hardly find any! In addition, their Twitter page doesn’t even have a link for sending  DM’s. I then tried Celebrity Constellation as a search on both Social Media platforms and found even less. If anybody has come across any activity concerning these changes to itineraries on Social Media, I’d be curious to see a link....

 

[nomad098]

7 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

I trust everyone in the EU/UK has read the COC as per 11-2 (a), how does that read, I bet it reads quite similar to that of the U.S. version...

 

But I know someone in the UK/EU can confirm this to us.

 

bon voyage

 

I have had a look at a number of UK contracts and cannot find "COC as per 11-2 (a)", or on US contracts

 

If you could provide a link this would be helpful.

 

I did find this on Celebrity UK site

 

https://www.celebritycruises.co.uk/key-rights/

 

I draw your attention to bullet points 6,7.9.10 and 11.

 

In the UK/EU  a change of embarkation/disembarkation port or missing more than a third of ports constitutes a significant change.

 

 

[Mark_T]

8 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

I trust everyone in the EU/UK has read the COC as per 11-2 (a), how does that read, I bet it reads quite similar to that of the U.S. version...

 

But I know someone in the UK/EU can confirm this to us.

 

bon voyage

 

Celebrity contracts with passengers booking in the UK are subject to specific UK booking conditions which acknowledge the measures in EU directive 2015/2302 which have been enacted into UK law, so to that extent Celebrity do correctly recognise their obligations.

 

Not sure if you will all be able to read this, but here is the link: https://www.celebritycruises.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/booking-conditions/

 

However, that doesn't mean that when they are communicating late changes like this to passengers that they actually observe all the requirements of UK law. So even though they are aware of their obligations, they will hope that most passengers don't use their rights and accept what is on offer.

 

Also as you may remember from when we discussed this matter at length in relation to another dissatisfied passenger last year, there is also the fine detail of what constitutes a 'package holiday' in the eyes of the law.

 

So if a guest booked with Celebrity direct and then separately booked their own air travel then Celebrity would have no liability in relation to the air travel.

 

If a guest booked both a Celebrity cruise and air travel together through a TA and paid the TA for both as a single price on one invoice, with the TA then contracting with Celebrity and the airlines then the guest would be covered, but they would be dealing with the TA to receive their refund for example and the TA would be dealing with Celebrity and the airlines. As you may imagine, most smaller UK based TA's avoid creating and selling their own packages when dealing with organisations like Celebrity, so it wouldn't be a common mode of purchase for this sort of cruise.

 

For the UK laws to kick-in on this one it looks like the only point to consider is if the change of embarkation point qualifies as a  'significant change'. The other change to the itinerary looks to be minor so would not in itself cause the legal requirements to bite.

 

Personal opinion only, but I'd be surprised if the shift from Singapore to Dubai with less than a weeks notice didn't qualify as a major change given both the financial impact and the potential loss of money on cancelling the outbound flight and booking a new one at short notice.

 

Again, personal opinion, if we were on this cruise and had made our own flight arrangements we would not be cancelling.

 

You can still purchase flights from London to Dubai for arrival early morning on the 16th for around £400 each. So yes there would be a shortfall in what Celebrity are offering to cover flight changes but not enough to make us give up the cruise. We'd make the changes and then argue about the shortfall with insurance and celebrity later.

 

One final point, when commenting about people deciding not to use Celebrity Air, keep in mind that it is not always (ever?) available to people booking outside of North America except when specifically offered as a cruise/air package. So it is not always a choice that was there to make in the first place.

 

Edit: Just found a good reference for change of departure as a reason to cancel...

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/package-travel-regulations

Edited February 12, 2020 by Mark_T

[nomad098]

18 minutes ago, GastroGnome said:

 

This is indeed the problem.  X's conditions of cariage - the contract - expressly allows for X to make changes.  The ABTA rules allow for that.

 

The Consumer Credit regulations may apply for anyone who has paid by Credit Card on the basis that the product received was not that paid for.  And some Travel Insurance (just checked mine..) does hold for flight changes  / cancellations in the event of pandemic.  I'll bet a lot of providers are changing their terms for new buisness though.  Thankfully we have annual insurance which renewed before all this started!

 

ABTA is a trade body not a law making body.

ABTA is there to govern some of the British travel agencies but certainly not all, there are other travel agencies that are not part of ABTA

ABTA does not make rules in regards to passenger rights only insuring that members adhere to the law.

 

Cruiselines can only make minor changes according to the law

 

Even ABTA have agreed that changing embarkation/disembarkation port countries or cancellation of more than a third of ports is classed as a significant change.

[upwarduk]

33 minutes ago, clojacks said:

After reading the comments about airing concerns on social media, I tried to see what activity there has been on Facebook and Twitter in Celebrity accounts, and in view of the recent issues, I couldn’t hardly find any! In addition, their Twitter page doesn’t even have a link for sending  DM’s. I then tried Celebrity Constellation as a search on both Social Media platforms and found even less. If anybody has come across any activity concerning these changes to itineraries on Social Media, I’d be curious to see a link....

 

It’s against Forum rules to promote FB.

But there is mention on private groups.