Refund Update: posted to Facebook

[Andi Land]

FYI-This is what HAL posted to Facebook today:

 

REFUNDS UPDATE - May 20th: We want our guests to know that we hear you and understand your frustration with the time it is taking to receive your refund. As of Friday, May 15, we have refunded millions of dollars in cruises, and we continue working through our backlog. Our reservation and payment systems were not designed to handle this volume of refunds in a short period of time, and it is taking longer than we wanted. We have increased the number of team members supporting this enormous effort and have made modifications to our systems. These modifications have increased our capacity to process refunds, and we should begin issuing at a faster rate this week. Thank you for your patience in these extraordinary circumstances.

[AlanF65]

37 minutes ago, Andi Land said:

FYI-This is what HAL posted to Facebook today:

 

REFUNDS UPDATE - May 20th: We want our guests to know that we hear you and understand your frustration with the time it is taking to receive your refund. As of Friday, May 15, we have refunded millions of dollars in cruises, and we continue working through our backlog. Our reservation and payment systems were not designed to handle this volume of refunds in a short period of time, and it is taking longer than we wanted. We have increased the number of team members supporting this enormous effort and have made modifications to our systems. These modifications have increased our capacity to process refunds, and we should begin issuing at a faster rate this week. Thank you for your patience in these extraordinary circumstances.

 

I was just playing with the math while this was being posted and made some ASSUMPTIONS based on GUESSES not facts.

 

HAL averages 35,000 passengers a week

So I take 35000/2 to come up with a guess at how many refunds / bookings per week (17,500)

There are about 30 weeks at least of cancellations so that's 525,000 cancellations they have to do.

at .5 hrs per cancellation that's 262,500 man hours.

If you have 125 employees working on refunds 8 hours a day that's 131 days to process refunds.

If it takes two hours it slows down by 4x. I am sure the first cancellation with people at sea or in transit are the hardest because of so many moving parts and different offers.

I am sure some are simpler and some are harder but I would be sure they need to.

1) verify that the customer actually paid (fro cruises that never left) and it hasn't been reversed.

2) refund port fees and txes first

3) then refund online extras

5) then refund to each card and method used for payment in the currency used.

6) then get approval before it sends out.

 

It doesn't excuse their communication or lack there of but it might explain why its taking so long.

If you expand it across the whole CCL line its about 3.5M refunds /cancellations they have to process with what was probably a small part of the various office staffs.

Sure they are trying to hold on to the money but I think its more they just can't get it done as fast as we think..

 

A-

 

 

 

 

[Woofumz]

I like the way you broke it down.  And if HAL would only be upfront on where they are in the process, it would probably ease a lot of our frustrations.  Seems to me they would work on this in order, starting with the March cancellations then move forwards.  If they did they and then routinely produce a list of which voyages are being worked on, which voyages have been completed, and which voyages are due to be worked on next.  It would give all of their consumers more confidence in their company.

[CruiserBruce]

Sorry @AlanF65...you aren't allowed to be understanding, thoughtful and analytical about what is going on in the world. You can only bash and blame HAL for everything, including things HAL didn't even do. That is just the facts on this forum.

 

Just kidding...well written. I don't think the numbers of employees working on refunds is anywhere near the number you use, but that only further supports your point.

[HAL4NOW]

3 hours ago, Andi Land said:

FYI-This is what HAL posted to Facebook today:

 

REFUNDS UPDATE - ...

Thanks for reposting this to Cruise Critic; I don't have Facebook, so HAL has made no attempt to communicate even this shred of information with me. 

I didn't notice any information for those of us waiting for FCC. They cancelled two cruises for us and we opted for the 125% credit plus the OBC. Communication has not happened.

[ann1bell]

I am still waiting for my refund. My Feb. 1 cruise on the Nieuw Amsterdam was cancelled and I have an email from Jan. 24 stating I would get a check by March 24. This all happened before the virus hit. I am still waiting after almost four months. Very frustrated! 

[Andi Land]

31 minutes ago, ann1bell said:

I am still waiting for my refund. My Feb. 1 cruise on the Nieuw Amsterdam was cancelled and I have an email from Jan. 24 stating I would get a check by March 24. This all happened before the virus hit. I am still waiting after almost four months. Very frustrated! 

Wow! That seems like maybe there’s possibly a whole other issue. Have you tried calling?

[ann1bell]

Yes, I have called. They said they knew my situation but could not say when I wouid get my refund. This was from the Feb. 1 Nieuw Amsterdam cruise cancelled because of mechanical problems. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by ann1bell

[MMDown Under]

2 hours ago, ann1bell said:

Yes, I have called. They said they knew my situation but could not say when I wouid get my refund. This was from the Feb. 1 Nieuw Amsterdam cruise cancelled because of mechanical problems. 

Did you apply for a refund via your credit card?  HAL cancelled your cruise on 1st February because of mechanical problems and you still haven't received a refund!!  How could HAL say they knew of your situation but could not say when you would get your refund?  Has everyone booked on that cruise on 1st February not received a refund?  I think you have been too patient!  Maybe you should put your case on HAL's Facebook page, seeing HAL says, as at 15th May, they have refunded millions of dollars in cruises, and they are continuing to work through their backlog. Surely 1st February would be top of their backlog list!

Edited May 21, 2020 by MMDown Under

[AtlantaCruiser72]

Funny enough, the same exact post VERBATIM was also posted on the Princess FB page today.

Edited May 21, 2020 by AtlantaCruiser72

[Nymich]

Sorry this refund fb post is just stringing things along.  2020 March Cruises first impacted...…...nothing.  

Edited May 21, 2020 by Nymich

[Krazy Kruizers]

Thanks for posting the information over here.  I also do not belong to Facebook.

[1ANGELCAT]

FWIW. You don’t have to belong to FB to view it on HAL website . Just click on the fb icon, the information is public view. 

[taxmantoo]

14 hours ago, AlanF65 said:

 

I was just playing with the math while this was being posted and made some ASSUMPTIONS based on GUESSES not facts.

 

HAL averages 35,000 passengers a week

So I take 35000/2 to come up with a guess at how many refunds / bookings per week (17,500)

There are about 30 weeks at least of cancellations so that's 525,000 cancellations they have to do.

at .5 hrs per cancellation that's 262,500 man hours.

If you have 125 employees working on refunds 8 hours a day that's 131 days to process refunds.

If it takes two hours it slows down by 4x. I am sure the first cancellation with people at sea or in transit are the hardest because of so many moving parts and different offers.

I am sure some are simpler and some are harder but I would be sure they need to.

1) verify that the customer actually paid (fro cruises that never left) and it hasn't been reversed.

2) refund port fees and txes first

3) then refund online extras

5) then refund to each card and method used for payment in the currency used.

6) then get approval before it sends out.

 

It doesn't excuse their communication or lack there of but it might explain why its taking so long.

If you expand it across the whole CCL line its about 3.5M refunds /cancellations they have to process with what was probably a small part of the various office staffs.

Sure they are trying to hold on to the money but I think its more they just can't get it done as fast as we think..

 

A-

 

 

 

 

A lot of thought went into this but this is simply not the way that a multi-million dollar international corporation is supposed to do business. Really? In 2020?  If the IRS worked its refund processing like this, you would get your 2020 refund in 2059.  It is time for cruise lines to use some of their profits to update their information technology systems.

[Caribbean Chris]

I thought it didn’t make sense that they now have “increased the number of team members” working on the problem. Didn’t they just lay off a large number of team members? Were there people sitting around without much to do who weren’t laid off? 

[fusion927]

1 hour ago, taxmantoo said:

A lot of thought went into this but this is simply not the way that a multi-million dollar international corporation is supposed to do business. Really? In 2020?  If the IRS worked its refund processing like this, you would get your 2020 refund in 2059.  It is time for cruise lines to use some of their profits to update their information technology systems.

 

SMH... And this is why I've almost stopped reading this forum.

 

Yeah, and suppose if someone working at a multi-million dollar international corporation said we need to get spend precious (and they are all precious in the IT world) dollars to support a system to be able to refund six months of our entire future booking within 30 (or even 60) days, though it has never happened to any modern industry ever before (at least that I know of).   Not to mention that we have to do it while our employees are all working at home and dealing with a Pandemic.  It would have been so low on the priority list that it wouldn't even come up for discussion until 2059.  

 

The IRS does this every year.  They have systems designed to do this every year.  Oh, and they don't really have to worry about shareholders and staying in business and taking care of their employees by trying to get them home.

 

HAL (and Carnival corporate) are pretty much flying by the seat of their pants.  They had to get employees secure access to the internal systems remotely (I'm sure that triggered a few PCI compliance issues), they have to automate some processes that were done by hand before.  They have safeguard our information and CC details.  And their IT staff has to do all this remotely while dealing with their own personal issues.

 

And, believe it or not, they have to get it right the first time.  You know the hackers are surrounding them 24x7 looking for holes to get the CC and other private data.  After 35+ years in Software Development (and more that a little knowledge about IT Ops), as much of a challenge this is, I'm sure glad I'm not in the fire on this one.

 

Sorry, that comment really set me off which is why the rant.  I will now return back to my own little sandbox.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, taxmantoo said:

A lot of thought went into this but this is simply not the way that a multi-million dollar international corporation is supposed to do business. Really? In 2020?  If the IRS worked its refund processing like this, you would get your 2020 refund in 2059.  It is time for cruise lines to use some of their profits to update their information technology systems.

The problem with this theory is that one of the main functions of the IRS is to process tax returns, including refunds. Thus they have a large number of people dedicated to the task, and their systems are set up specifically and directly for it.  HAL's main function is to sell and sail cruises, so their IT functions and  and a large portion of their staff are focused to that purpose. The refunding department at HAL is a small part of the operation (how many refunds did HAL process daily, pre-Covid? A VERY small number, comparably). And how many of those IRS workers are working from home?

[AlanF65]

2 hours ago, taxmantoo said:

A lot of thought went into this but this is simply not the way that a multi-million dollar international corporation is supposed to do business. Really? In 2020?  If the IRS worked its refund processing like this, you would get your 2020 refund in 2059.  It is time for cruise lines to use some of their profits to update their information technology systems.

We did a project at downtown Disney in LA about 25 years ago when it first opened. It was a 2000 sq foot bookstore and Cafe. They had me fly down to take measurements in May for a September delivery. After a half hour of parking rigamarole and walk to the site the PM told me they were a little behind and walked me over to an empty lot, said they would be read to measure on July 1.

 

I ask if I can come down after the 4th and no I need to be there on the 1st. I check in a week before an we are on schedule so off I go. Still an empty lot. We go over schedule with my drop dead dates to be able to open on time. I return late in august, still no building but this time we are meeting with a Big dog from Disney. He guaranteed it would be ready in 3 weeks.  I show in 3 weeks and still no building and comment to Big Dog that its going to be a time crunch.

 

His comment was I don't care if you have 2000 man hours to produce the product and 400 to install. Just hire 4800 people and get it done in half an hour if that's what it takes.

 

There wasn't room for 800 men in a 2000 square foot building. We ended up working Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, New years Eve and New Years Day to get it done so we could install in time for it to open for a huge party in January.

 

We did all the woodwork, metal work and coordinated all the "props".

 

 

 

 

 

Some things take time regardless of how it looks from the outside. This store is gone now, people don't want these type of retail spaces anymore. This was a beautiful store for kids. It was designed to give the sense of exploration of a time long gone. I wish I had better pictures.

 

People use multiple methods of payment, people purchase multiple options, people move and get credits or pay more, there are lots of moving parts that need to be verified.

 

My IRS return was 75 pages, it took my accountant a few months and then it was ready for my review, after that he e-filed. There was a lot of prep work before the IRS had to "push" the button. It took the IRS about 4 weeks to "push" the button with everything verified by a CPA to get my personal refund.

The IRS didn't have to to do the preparation math.

 

At the very minimum people will get two credits, one for taxes and fees and one for the cruise fare. If its all on one card it may come together, if its a voyage in progress then they to need to verify each port that wasn't visited. I am sure a lot of it is electronic but it all needs to be verified before it is sent out. That is what bean counters do.

 

A-

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by AlanF65

[Woofumz]

This my sound cold.. but in your job you need to do whatever it takes to get the job done.  Not do what can be easily done and hope for the best.  It has taken HAL way to long to realize there communication has been awful (I hope they have realized this). 

 

They have made at least one IT decision that has now cost them a lot of time.  The electronic form we filled out for our refund wasn't tied directly to our bookings until after April 17th.  That means from March 17th (or whenever the form went out) until April 17th, they weren't electronically keeping track of each individual booking and the option of cancellation selected.  They made that linking finally on April 17th.  So for all the forms submitted before April 17th, they now have to go in and look at each cancellation form that was submitted and then  look up the booking information and marry the two.  This is incompetence.  They threw up a form 'quick and dirty' (yes, that's an IT expression) without thinking it through. This was told to me by HAL so I have no reason to believe it isn't true. 

 

And yes, they are working from home, and security is a concern.  But setting up a VPN network is relatively simple in today's world.  Working at home should not be any barrier.  I did it for years, with access to very sensitive data (social security numbers and such). They may have to spend money on it, but they should.  That is doing what is necessary to get the job done.

 

This is not doing whatever needs done to get the job done.  They were taking the easy way and hoping for the best.  I hope that HAL will start to change their business process and get people who can manage their business properly.  

 

I know this sounds harsh so you don't need to tell me so.  I'm retired now, but worked in an environment where excuses were not used as a way to get out of doing your job.

[ann1bell]

Yes, I have disputed the charge on my credit card. I am waiting to hear back from them.

[fusion927]

12 minutes ago, Woofumz said:

This my sound cold.. but in your job you need to do whatever it takes to get the job done.  Not do what can be easily done and hope for the best.  It has taken HAL way to long to realize there communication has been awful (I hope they have realized this). 

 

They have made at least one IT decision that has now cost them a lot of time.  The electronic form we filled out for our refund wasn't tied directly to our bookings until after April 17th.  That means from March 17th (or whenever the form went out) until April 17th, they weren't electronically keeping track of each individual booking and the option of cancellation selected.  They made that linking finally on April 17th.  So for all the forms submitted before April 17th, they now have to go in and look at each cancellation form that was submitted and then  look up the booking information and marry the two.  This is incompetence.  They threw up a form 'quick and dirty' (yes, that's an IT expression) without thinking it through. This was told to me by HAL so I have no reason to believe it isn't true. 

 

And yes, they are working from home, and security is a concern.  But setting up a VPN network is relatively simple in today's world.  Working at home should not be any barrier.  I did it for years, with access to very sensitive data (social security numbers and such). They may have to spend money on it, but they should.  That is doing what is necessary to get the job done.

 

This is not doing whatever needs done to get the job done.  They were taking the easy way and hoping for the best.  I hope that HAL will start to change their business process and get people who can manage their business properly.  

 

I know this sounds harsh so you don't need to tell me so.  I'm retired now, but worked in an environment where excuses were not used as a way to get out of doing your job.

 

Then I won't.  I'm just going to say that much like the proverbial glass of water, getting the job done or not depends entirely on your perspective.  And my perspective is that I would prefer that they take their time and get it right then rush it and expose me (and the rest of their customers) to errors and fraud (internal or hacking) and possibly destroy the entire corporation.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

[san diego sue]

That Facebook posting was also an email sent to all Princess customers who are waiting for cash refunds. I got one and so did Hubby last night , signed by Jan Swartz. Exactly word for word as the Facebook posting.

[AlanF65]

35 minutes ago, Woofumz said:

And yes, they are working from home, and security is a concern.  But setting up a VPN network is relatively simple in today's world.  Working at home should not be any barrier. 

 

When we sent people home our MSP  didn't want employees personal computers or computers we just retired from service being used because they didn't have all the 24 x 7 management tools on those PCS so we had to use their management tool to connect and not USE VPN  because we couldn't control what the employees did on those computers and we didn't want to pay for the additional seats of monitoring and AV and all the other fees.

I would hope that HAL operates and an even higher level of security, for our situation where we used to use VPN from non owned computers it was no longer recommended for security reasons.

 

It was very tough to purchase additional monitors, cables and accessories when we were shutdown, everyone was sold out.

 

A-

 

 

 

[SilvertoGold]

1 hour ago, AlanF65 said:

We did a project at downtown Disney in LA about 25 years ago when it first opened. It was a 2000 sq foot bookstore and Cafe. They had me fly down to take measurements in May for a September delivery. After a half hour of parking rigamarole and walk to the site the PM told me they were a little behind and walked me over to an empty lot, said they would be read to measure on July 1.

 

I ask if I can come down after the 4th and no I need to be there on the 1st. I check in a week before an we are on schedule so off I go. Still an empty lot. We go over schedule with my drop dead dates to be able to open on time. I return late in august, still no building but this time we are meeting with a Big dog from Disney. He guaranteed it would be ready in 3 weeks.  I show in 3 weeks and still no building and comment to Big Dog that its going to be a time crunch.

 

His comment was I don't care if you have 2000 man hours to produce the product and 400 to install. Just hire 4800 people and get it done in half an hour if that's what it takes.

 

There wasn't room for 800 men in a 2000 square foot building. We ended up working Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, New years Eve and New Years Day to get it done so we could install in time for it to open for a huge party in January.

 

We did all the woodwork, metal work and coordinated all the "props".

 

 

 

 

 

Some things take time regardless of how it looks from the outside. This store is gone now, people don't want these type of retail spaces anymore. This was a beautiful store for kids. It was designed to give the sense of exploration of a time long gone. I wish I had better pictures.

 

People use multiple methods of payment, people purchase multiple options, people move and get credits or pay more, there are lots of moving parts that need to be verified.

 

My IRS return was 75 pages, it took my accountant a few months and then it was ready for my review, after that he e-filed. There was a lot of prep work before the IRS had to "push" the button. It took the IRS about 4 weeks to "push" the button with everything verified by a CPA to get my personal refund.

The IRS didn't have to to do the preparation math.

 

At the very minimum people will get two credits, one for taxes and fees and one for the cruise fare. If its all on one card it may come together, if its a voyage in progress then they to need to verify each port that wasn't visited. I am sure a lot of it is electronic but it all needs to be verified before it is sent out. That is what bean counters do.

 

A-

========================================================

This is a delightful post!  Been there and done that.  It happens all the time.  An apt comparison to HAL right now.  Thanks for the commentary and photos.  It was, indeed, a beautiful job!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by SilvertoGold

[Woofumz]

55 minutes ago, fusion927 said:

 

Then I won't.  I'm just going to say that much like the proverbial glass of water, getting the job done or not depends entirely on your perspective.  And my perspective is that I would prefer that they take their time and get it right then rush it and expose me (and the rest of their customers) to errors and fraud (internal or hacking) and possibly destroy the entire corporation.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Although I do think their time frame has been exasperating.  What I was commenting most on was the way they have handled this.  Their decision making process.  Their decision to not program the cancellation page correct from the beginning, their decision to not have a regular communication process.  And their belief that excuses serve as reasons. Yes, I wish i had my refund already, but at bare minimum I would expect they would have a scheduled developed by now where they were tracking everyone's refund and could tell you when you could expect the refund