Are cruise ship companies making a mistake getting ride of small ships?

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, SuSuTrav said:

We have a 350 passenger limit on ships. But, I doubt we will ever cruise again after this virus and all that ensued. 

The No Sail Order applies to ships with a capacity of over 250, and that number is the total of passengers and crew, so the passenger limit is actually lower than 250.

[iancal]

Perhaps the question should be are cruise lines that specialize in smaller ships making a mistake buying up smaller, older cruise ships that the mass market cruise lines are disposing of? 

 

 Will they be able to attract the custom and will they be able to realize operate at a higher, acceptable level of profitability to their shareholders than was the case with the mass market lines?

Edited October 9, 2020 by iancal

[pc_load_letter]

I will miss the Fantasy class for Carnival. Personally, if Disney or Holland started using the Fantasy class ships, I'd probably be more apt to book one of those versus some of mega ships. Just preference really. 

[cruizergal70]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Perhaps the question should be are cruise lines that specialize in smaller ships making a mistake buying up smaller, older cruise ships that the mass market cruise lines are disposing of? 

 

 Will they be able to attract the custom and will they be able to realize operate at a higher, acceptable level of profitability to their shareholders than was the case with the mass market lines?

It all comes down to why certain customers prefer smaller ships.  Do they just care about the lower number of bodies onboard or do ship amenities and appearance come into play?

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Perhaps the question should be are cruise lines that specialize in smaller ships making a mistake buying up smaller, older cruise ships that the mass market cruise lines are disposing of? 

 

 Will they be able to attract the custom and will they be able to realize operate at a higher, acceptable level of profitability to their shareholders than was the case with the mass market lines?

 

Fred Olsen Line will do very well, as since they purchased 2 of the HAL ships they sold 2 even older ships dating from the 70's. The younger tonnage, with more passengers, should reduce their operating and maintenance costs, so the break even point will require less pax than their existing tonnage.

 

Although I don't have any statistics, I suspect the cruise lines operating smaller & older tonnage have a higher percentage of loyal passengers than most of the mainstream mega ship Lines. Once cruising returns, I have no doubt they will fill their new ships to whatever capacity they are permitted.

 

Knowing a number of loyal Fred Olsen passengers, I suspect their average passenger is not overly interested in the glitz, technology and activities on the mega ships. Therefore, I have no doubt they will attain their profit margins.

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

It all comes down to why certain customers prefer smaller ships.  Do they just care about the lower number of bodies onboard or do ship amenities and appearance come into play?

There a certain attraction that smaller ships possess:  perhaps closeness to the sea, maybe a feeling of comfort from being in as smaller crowd — one way or the other, smaller ships being, less efficient, probably have to charge higher fares.  This automatically sorts out the real bargain hunters and tends to attract customers who are willing to pay a bit more for the sort of experience they prefer.

 

I, for one, prefer the closeness to the sea, the smaller passenger load, the likelihood that more of my fellow passengers are selective rather than bargain -oriented — then, of course, I simply cannot stand the idea of sailing on a thing that looks more like a Soviet era public housing edifice than a sea-going vessel.

[Heidi13]

Similar to Navybankerteacher, we prefer the smaller ships, because they do resemble proper passengers ships and not a block of flats with a pointy end. I spent a couple of contracts painting on P&O/Princess ships as a cadet, ensuring they had clean and gleaming hulls. Now, before they leave the shipyard, they deliberately paint graffiti on the bows that look ridiculous.

 

With our small ship cruise line, we enjoy new, modern ships that are tastefully decorated, and are very spacious. Lots of quiet nooks and crannies to sit, with no queues. An extensive library of books is distributed in multiple locations throughout the ship, which is on the honour system.

 

Open decks abound with lounge chairs, which are readily available at any time of day. Didn't see any chair hogs in 100 days aboard the ship. Pools are available to swim or just chill, as wacky pool games are neither expected or provided. The pool decks are never crowded and boom, boom, boom is blasting over speakers. When films are shown on the outdoor telly, they provide headsets for those watching.

 

Most importantly, no running and screaming kids. Most pax have similar mindsets with your mega ship bargain orientated booze cruisers are conspicuous by their absence.

 

While entertainment options are obviously less, what they offer is more applicable to our expectations, especially the lectures and music selections, which are especially suitable for the 50 to 70's age groups.

 

Another benefit is actually getting to know many of the crew and being addressed by name from many crew members by day 2. Our cabin steward had 2/3 the cabins to clean as the Princess stewards and also had a shared assistant. Therefore, cabins were spotless and they had time to stop and chat. Big ship crews are good, but on our small ship line they are significantly better. They also have better terms and conditions, with shorter contracts. The crew quickly pick up consistencies, every morning DW went to the lower deck Atrium for tea and within a couple of days, as soon as they saw her, the tea was made and delivered wherever she was sitting.

[SelectSys]

22 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

— then, of course, I simply cannot stand the idea of sailing on a thing that looks more like a Soviet era public housing edifice than a sea-going vessel.

 

While I appreciate the visual imagery this reference conjures up, I believe the large cruise ship today are a far cry from public housing of any form and some of their interior public spaces suggest an updated extravagance and grandeur like Moscow metro stations.

[cruizergal70]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Similar to Navybankerteacher, we prefer the smaller ships, because they do resemble proper passengers ships and not a block of flats with a pointy end. I spent a couple of contracts painting on P&O/Princess ships as a cadet, ensuring they had clean and gleaming hulls. Now, before they leave the shipyard, they deliberately paint graffiti on the bows that look ridiculous.

 

 

Well, I'll say this. It certainly seems that small ship customers are a niche market. Frankly, everything you mentioned sounds unappealing, unneeded and/or unnecessary. And I'm the target market (in my 50s). LOL

 

Who goes on a cruise to read random books chosen by strangers? Just download books, movies, and music to a tablet. Quiet nooks can be found on any ship including the mega ships. I'm not a sunbather so the pool deck doesn't matter...and I don't care if other people are enjoying pool games even if I'm not participating. I enjoy a good lecture but I can find hundreds of lectures on YouTube any day of the week. I don't care to get to know the crew and I've never liked it when strangers pretend to be extra familiar with me.

[navybankerteacher]

11 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

...

 

Who goes on a cruise to read random books chosen by strangers? Just download books, movies, and music to a tablet. Quiet nooks can be found on any ship including the mega ships. ...

Valid points - but part of the attraction of cruising to me is the disconnecting from 21st century activities - and sitting in the sun, cooled by the breeze, smelling the sea, and feeling it’s motion strike me as activities more compatible with holding a real book rather than an I-pad to complement the experience.

Edited October 10, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[navybankerteacher]

24 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

While I appreciate the visual imagery this reference conjures up, I believe the large cruise ship today are a far cry from public housing of any form and some of their interior public spaces suggest an updated extravagance and grandeur like Moscow metro stations.

Granted - but if the best thing about a ship is how it compares with a subway station (even one on the magnificent Moscow system), it will still leave me unimpressed.

[getting older slowly]

Right back on OP original statement

 

The cruise lines have been busy down sizing capacity by selling or scraping older smaller ship.   They seem to be assuming that the world of tomorrow will be filled with 3000-5000 passenger ships.

 

They were not talking about the "R" class ships...........  but the main line ships 1500-2500....

 

With that in mind... i think it will be the ports  will have the last said on this......

 

By not dredging to add greater draft... or extending in particularly piers for longer ships...and along with infrastructure to cater for increase passenger number 

 

Which in turn restricts the places the mega ships can visit....

 

So answering the OP statement..... Yes  the main stream cruise lines  I feel are doing the wrong thing by making bigger and bigger ships...

So we need to turn back the clocks 20 years..... and go back to max size of 2000-2500 passengers

 

Example  of getting too big is.... A380   and now they have stop building them

 

Don

 

 

[wowzz]

3 minutes ago, getting older slowly said:

Example  of getting too big is.... A380   and now they have stop building them

Sorry, totally wrong metaphor. The 380 was built when AB decided that that airlines wanted hub to hub operations, and the 380 was designed to do just that.

However, the the airlines decided that hub and spoke operations were the way to go, which, coupled with the fuel efficiencies of the new generation twin aisle jets,  led to the demise of the 380. 

A real shame, as the 380 is a fantastic aircraft to fly in, far better,  imho, than the overrated 787. 

So the size in itself is not a problem, it is the modus operandi that begets the success or failure of a large ship or aircraft. 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Sorry, totally wrong metaphor. The 380 was built when AB decided that that airlines wanted hub to hub operations, and the 380 was designed to do just that.

However, the the airlines decided that hub and spoke operations were the way to go, which, coupled with the fuel efficiencies of the new generation twin aisle jets,  led to the demise of the 380. 

A real shame, as the 380 is a fantastic aircraft to fly in, far better,  imho, than the overrated 787. 

So the size in itself is not a problem, it is the modus operandi that begets the success or failure of a large ship or aircraft. 

 But the size does have an impact on the modus operandi.  I am inclined to think that an increasing number of interesting/worthwhile ports will limit the size of the ships they will welcome.  Not only does a ship offloading  thousands of day-trippers have a questionable impact on a port —- those thousands of passengers are more likely to be traveling on a budget than those who prefer small ships - and they offer little financial reward to the port.

Edited October 11, 2020 by navybankerteacher

[getting older slowly]

2 hours ago, wowzz said:

Sorry, totally wrong metaphor.  

Fair enough...  But one should added it is also due to Emirates cancelling orders

Maybe  should of use Super Sizing... is not always the best answer 

 

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

  those thousands of passengers are more likely to be traveling on a budget than those who prefer small ships - and they offer little financial reward to the port.

 But remember the Small Ships offer their own tours... leave less people to wander freely and into shops....  Also the mega ships have  loads of people wandering freely and buying stuff in the shop while in port.....

 

Thus the Mega ships would offer a large financial reward to the port and over more businesses.

 

And I think the passengers on the Small Ships, would be more discerning about on shore purchases.......

 

 

Don

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 Not only does a ship offloading  thousands of day-trippers have a questionable impact on a port —- those thousands of passengers are more likely to be traveling on a budget than those who prefer small ships - and they offer little financial reward to the port.

 

55 minutes ago, getting older slowly said:

 

But remember the Small Ships offer their own tours... leave less people to wander freely and into shops....  Also the mega ships have  loads of people wandering freely and buying stuff in the shop while in port.....

 

Thus the Mega ships would offer a large financial reward to the port and over more businesses.

 

 

getting older slower has it right on this topic.  I'm from Key West and I'm good friends with both shop owners and port directors.  One, many ports charge cruise ships per person rather than a flat fee that is then calculated by the ship per person.  This means the city much prefers a large ship because the income is much higher.  Two, all the shop owners I knew loved it when the big ships were in town.  That's when they made money (in turn, DW made money because she did all their graphic design work).  Some didn't even open when only a small ship was at the dock. 

 

So yes, thousands of passengers on large ships most certainly do offer great financial reward to ports.    

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Well, I'll say this. It certainly seems that small ship customers are a niche market. Frankly, everything you mentioned sounds unappealing, unneeded and/or unnecessary. And I'm the target market (in my 50s). LOL

 

Who goes on a cruise to read random books chosen by strangers? Just download books, movies, and music to a tablet. Quiet nooks can be found on any ship including the mega ships. I'm not a sunbather so the pool deck doesn't matter...and I don't care if other people are enjoying pool games even if I'm not participating. I enjoy a good lecture but I can find hundreds of lectures on YouTube any day of the week. I don't care to get to know the crew and I've never liked it when strangers pretend to be extra familiar with me.

 

I always struggle with comparisons between large and small ships. No matter what you say, it almost always comes out sounding elitist, and I am far from an elitist. But I've been on a number of different cruise lines, on large ships and small ones, and I much prefer the smaller ones. But I think everyone has their own criteria, and mine may not be yours, or anyone else's....

 

I think you've said before that ports are important to you -- well, they are the overwhelmingly important thing to me too. What I've found is that on smaller ships you have more unique itineraries. Never a problem getting ashore quickly, even when it's a tender port. And even when both large and small ships go to a destination, often it's the small ships that dock at the closer ports, while larger ones may have to dock in industrial ports that are a much longer (non-walkable) distance from where you want to be.

 

And the lecturers I've experienced are actually lecturing on the history or art or current events or flora and fauna of the places you're visiting, so it's really an addition to your pleasure and understanding -- not at all the same, to me, as seeing lectures before or after the cruise (I do that too). Plus the lecturers make themselves available at other times -- dining with you or on your tour bus, so you can chat and ask additional questions.

 

Same with the library. I always travel with a well-loaded Kindle, but sometimes the library will have unusual or rare or highly specific books about your destinations. 

 

I travel solo, and while I don't necessarily travel to find new friends, it is very agreeable to be able to share a table with others who likely also chose the cruise for the itinerary and are interested in talking about the places we've visited that day, or similar travels. I also enjoy seeing the same faces around, so that after a few days you don't feel like you have to start every conversation from scratch. Sometimes on a large ship I've enjoyed a conversation with someone -- and then I never even see them again. For the record, I've never felt that strangers were pretending to be extra-familiar.

 

Yes, I get that it sounds pretty nerdy, but that's what I enjoy. Entertainment doesn't mean a lot to me because I pick port-intensive itineraries with few sea days -- and on those few days I'm happy to sit on a lounger and read or watch the waves. I don't gamble, don't go to the spa, and really hate passenger participation-type entertainment. A little music and conversation after dinner are fine with me.

 

I hope that gives a little sense of what I enjoy about smaller ships. Sure, it can be a bit of an eye-opener to see the prices, especially for a solo. But luckily I'm not picky at all about cabins; I'd rather have the smallest inside cabin on a ship I love than the biggest suite on one that I don't like.

 

[ldubs]

On 10/9/2020 at 10:57 AM, Heidi13 said:

 

Although I don't have any statistics, I suspect the cruise lines operating smaller & older tonnage have a higher percentage of loyal passengers than most of the mainstream mega ship Lines. Once cruising returns, I have no doubt they will fill their new ships to whatever capacity they are permitted.

 

    

I suspect it won't take long for all cruise lines to sail at capacity (whatever that is) when things open up.   

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Aquahound said:

 

...

 

So yes, thousands of passengers on large ships most certainly do offer great financial reward to ports.    

I suppose that may be the case - but from my own point of view I am not interested in sharing a port with up to 20,000 other passengers (St. Maarten on a busy day) - so, while those large ships might be good for some ports, they would only make those ports less interesting to me - in addition to being less enjoyable for me to be aboard.

 

I think we will have to see how the industry evolves - I suspect that a number of ports will not welcome ever larger ships - so cruising will really split into two different types of activity.

[Joebucks]

Lots of people think their preferences are consistent with the overall industry. Look at the Oasis class ships. They command a premium fare in the mass market because they are in demand. They regularly sell out these ships with 5k+ people each week. Plus people buy all sorts of dining, entertainment, and even balconies that you can't really get on the smaller ships. Combined with more efficiency, and larger is the future. You'll never please everyone, but what part of this model seems like a bad business move for them? Their tiny ships are being scrapped for a reason.

 

Obviously, with any decision in life, there are pros and cons. Some smaller islands still can't handle these mega ships very well. However, why do we always need to go to extremes? Mega ships aren't the only choice. There are many early 2000 builds that can reach any island just fine and not completely overwhelm it.

 

I also wonder if some people truly don't like large ships or if they don't like the design of said ships, maybe even just specific areas. Just because a ship is bigger, does not mean finding a chair should be harder.

[J_M_F]

I think that there are two different types of cruisers. There are those that want to go on a long explore and those that want to party for a week. We were on the Prinsendam when she docked at St Thomas after a month long trip to the Amazon river. There were at least six other ships docked there, all much larger. The town was so crowed that you could hardly move. Most of the folks were not exploring the town, they were going into the tourist stores like Diamonds International. The contrast between those from the Prinsendam and those who wanted to party was obvious. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with going on a cruise to party and there are many more ways to party on a large ship, but if you want to go on a long explore a small ship is better. You can get into smaller and more exotic ports and the number of passengers is small enough to not totally overwhelm the port. 

There was a much larger ship ship docked opposite us (we were at the far end of town). We had one gangway out and there was never a wait to get back on board. The other ship was two gangways out and just before departure there were 50 yard long lines at each gangway.

[Cruzaholic41]

I don’t know why some folks think it’s an either/or thing. Many of us enjoy both large and small ships. For a short (3-10 night) Caribbean cruise, I love the large ships with all their energy and great entertainment. But for a longer exotic journey, I prefer a small ship where I feel more immersed. Two of my favorite ships are Oasis Class and Celebrity Flora.  Two of my favorite lines are Celebrity and Viking Ocean. 

[getting older slowly]

5 hours ago, J_M_F said:

I think that there are two different types of cruisers. There are those that want to go on a long explore and those that want to party for a week.

 

I think you will find there are many different types of cruiser, ( not just us and them )

as there are more than two types of ships  ( not just big and small )

 

Remember everybody if different, thank goodness... and people are allowed to disagree

 

And the cost... it up to each person to decide whatever the cost are they happy to pay and get their worth from it........ 

 

So the point.... no one's options are either right or wrong,   not one idea  fits all.....

 

As long are there are different ship and cruise lines  there will be some one there for you.

 

Don

[wowzz]

17 minutes ago, getting older slowly said:

 

I think you will find there are many different types of cruiser, ( not just us and them )

as there are more than two types of ships  ( not just big and small )

 

Remember everybody if different, thank goodness... and people are allowed to disagree

 

And the cost... it up to each person to decide whatever the cost are they happy to pay and get their worth from it........ 

 

So the point.... no one's options are either right or wrong,   not one idea  fits all.....

 

As long are there are different ship and cruise lines  there will be some one there for you.

 

Don

That just about sums it up!

Excellent post.

[cruisemom42]

23 hours ago, Joebucks said:

Lots of people think their preferences are consistent with the overall industry. Look at the Oasis class ships. They command a premium fare in the mass market because they are in demand. They regularly sell out these ships with 5k+ people each week. Plus people buy all sorts of dining, entertainment, and even balconies that you can't really get on the smaller ships. Combined with more efficiency, and larger is the future. You'll never please everyone, but what part of this model seems like a bad business move for them? Their tiny ships are being scrapped for a reason.

 

Obviously, with any decision in life, there are pros and cons. Some smaller islands still can't handle these mega ships very well. However, why do we always need to go to extremes? Mega ships aren't the only choice. There are many early 2000 builds that can reach any island just fine and not completely overwhelm it.

 

I also wonder if some people truly don't like large ships or if they don't like the design of said ships, maybe even just specific areas. Just because a ship is bigger, does not mean finding a chair should be harder.

 

In my opinion, while this model may work for short Caribbean/island cruising, it doesn't work so well for longer more globe-trotting voyages.

 

I realize a lot of people on these forums only do the former. But there should be a choice for the latter as well. While industry preferences for shorter cruises have moved steadily toward larger ships and "ship as destination", for longer cruises there is a fairly significant niche for smaller ships.

 

I'm not sure how to address your last point. As individuals, we like what we like. Why do some people like rambling old houses and some prefer shiny modern condos?  Why do some like Italian food and others prefer Asian?  Big ships just don't speak to me. I feel like I am in a glitzy Las Vegas hotel, not on a ship headed out to sea. Many bigger ships tend to be very inward focused -- some even have interior balconies.  Not a big fan of the huge, noisy atria or the seemingly endless buffet stations. Others love them. More power to them.