Here Is A Shock: The CDC is a Roadblock

[GA Dave]

RCCL Held Up By CDC

[cheersforbeers]

No, tell me it ain’t so, not the CDC!!

[Laszlo]

That test cruise from Barbados worked out so well.....time to try another one

[Mary229]

Have you ever heard the phrase “drunk with power”?   😉

[Capitan Obvious]

Remember when the mantra on Cruise Critic was that cruise lines were incorporated outside the US and their ships were foreign-flagged so they didn't have to pay US taxes or follow US laws and regulations?

 

Either things have changed or that mantra was more assumption than fact.

[AtlantaCruiser72]

The outgoing CDC administration appears to have done little between November and Mid January to work with the Cruise Lines on the Conditional sailing framework they issued in October.  The new CDC administration has been in office only a few weeks and appears to be conducting a top down review on all Covid-19 related policies and documents.  My guess is that dealing with the cruise lines is lower on the priority list than reopening schools, effective/consistent public health messaging, vaccine distribution, etc.  

[All-ready2cruise]

That's a huge shock @GA Dave just so unbelievable.  😞

[DaCruiseBug]

2 hours ago, Capitan Obvious said:

Remember when the mantra on Cruise Critic was that cruise lines were incorporated outside the US and their ships were foreign-flagged so they didn't have to pay US taxes or follow US laws and regulations?

 

Either things have changed or that mantra was more assumption than fact.

 

It's not a mantra. It's a fact. Look it up for yourself.

 

The reason the CDC has jurisdiction is because their sail out of US ports.

[Capitan Obvious]

46 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

It's not a mantra. It's a fact. Look it up for yourself.

 

The reason the CDC has jurisdiction is because their sail out of US ports.

 

So, in other words, incorporation outside of the US and having their ships be foreign-flagged does not give them an exemption from US govenement rules and regulations. As I said, if they have jurisdiction then the whole "don't have to follow US laws and regulations" mantra goes right out the window, right?

 

So much for "fact" as things are leaning toward assumption. (which is what I said in the first place).

[DaCruiseBug]

2 hours ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

So, in other words, incorporation outside of the US and having their ships be foreign-flagged does not give them an exemption from US govenement rules and regulations. As I said, if they have jurisdiction then the whole "don't have to follow US laws and regulations" mantra goes right out the window, right?

 

So much for "fact" as things are leaning toward assumption. (which is what I said in the first place).

 

Incorporating a business in another country and using a flag of convenience model allows them to pay a lot less in taxes and hire workers from other countries and not have to follow US labor laws. Has nothing to do with CDC oversight.

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

So, in other words, incorporation outside of the US and having their ships be foreign-flagged does not give them an exemption from US govenement rules and regulations. As I said, if they have jurisdiction then the whole "don't have to follow US laws and regulations" mantra goes right out the window, right?

 

So much for "fact" as things are leaning toward assumption. (which is what I said in the first place).

No, it gives them exemption from some US laws and regulations.  It is a complex legal jurisdictional area where the jurisdiction of the "port state" (the US, if the ship is in US waters), and the "flag state" (the country the ship is registered in) can overlap, and therefore some aspects of each jurisdiction are waived in the "best interests of international commerce".

 

And, the foreign flag cruise line does not have to  follow the CDC requirements to operate, it is just a requirement when requesting clearance to enter the US. It is the company's decision, if they want to enter the US, they must follow those US requirements to do so, just as they do for every other country that they wish to enter.

 

The most simplistic explanation of the overlapping jurisdiction is that actions that are "outside" the ship, such as environmental concerns, commerce (sales, taxes, gambling), or crimes are the "port state" jurisdiction (hence DEA and CBP can search the ship for drugs, etc, ships can get fined for pollution), but actions that are "inside" the ship, like labor laws, wages, etc, are the "flag state" jurisdiction.  Only when the "safety or well being" of the port state are threatened will the "port state" exercise jurisdiction on the ship.

 

The USCG has far stricter regulations for US flag cruise ships than they can enforce on foreign flag cruise ships.  This is a basic tenet of SOLAS, which the US is signatory to.  SOLAS requires each country to pass legislation that enters the terms of SOLAS into law, but one of the terms is that the country cannot enact stricter regulations than SOLAS requires, except for ships of their own flag.  A prime example, is that the USCG tries to inspect each foreign flag cruise ship once a year, as part of "port state control", enforcing SOLAS, but that is not legally mandated, and can get skipped if the ship's schedule, or USCG budgeting don't allow.  However, US flag cruise ships must, by law, be inspected by the USCG every 3 months.

 

Further, you have things written into the US tax code that foreign owned vessels and aircraft, do not owe US taxes on revenue earned in the US, unlike all other foreign corporations with US earnings.

 

Trust me, after 4 decades in the maritime industry, I know what laws the foreign flag ships must follow, and those they don't.

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, GA Dave said:

RCCL Held Up By CDC

Maybe they're a little busy with something else?

[Capitan Obvious]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

No, it gives them exemption from some US laws and regulations.  It is a complex legal jurisdictional area where the jurisdiction of the "port state" (the US, if the ship is in US waters), and the "flag state" (the country the ship is registered in) can overlap, and therefore some aspects of each jurisdiction are waived in the "best interests of international commerce".

 

And, the foreign flag cruise line does not have to  follow the CDC requirements to operate, it is just a requirement when requesting clearance to enter the US. It is the company's decision, if they want to enter the US, they must follow those US requirements to do so, just as they do for every other country that they wish to enter.

 

The most simplistic explanation of the overlapping jurisdiction is that actions that are "outside" the ship, such as environmental concerns, commerce (sales, taxes, gambling), or crimes are the "port state" jurisdiction (hence DEA and CBP can search the ship for drugs, etc, ships can get fined for pollution), but actions that are "inside" the ship, like labor laws, wages, etc, are the "flag state" jurisdiction.  Only when the "safety or well being" of the port state are threatened will the "port state" exercise jurisdiction on the ship.

 

The USCG has far stricter regulations for US flag cruise ships than they can enforce on foreign flag cruise ships.  This is a basic tenet of SOLAS, which the US is signatory to.  SOLAS requires each country to pass legislation that enters the terms of SOLAS into law, but one of the terms is that the country cannot enact stricter regulations than SOLAS requires, except for ships of their own flag.  A prime example, is that the USCG tries to inspect each foreign flag cruise ship once a year, as part of "port state control", enforcing SOLAS, but that is not legally mandated, and can get skipped if the ship's schedule, or USCG budgeting don't allow.  However, US flag cruise ships must, by law, be inspected by the USCG every 3 months.

 

Further, you have things written into the US tax code that foreign owned vessels and aircraft, do not owe US taxes on revenue earned in the US, unlike all other foreign corporations with US earnings.

 

Trust me, after 4 decades in the maritime industry, I know what laws the foreign flag ships must follow, and those they don't.

 

Yes...I realize all that...and I AGREE WITH YOU.

 

Go back and read my original post. What I was pointing out was that there are many people here who believe that being incorporated outside the US and having ships be foreign-flagged means that they never have to follow US rules and regulations. I'm just using this as one example where that thinking is wrong.

 

It is just laughable that people think that a coompany whose headquarters sits in Miami, Florida somehow pays nothing in US taxes, etc, etc, etc.

[beerman2]

Not a very good analogy about hearing crickets. I thought "crickets" made quite a bit of noise.

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Capitan Obvious said:

It is just laughable that people think that a coompany whose headquarters sits in Miami, Florida somehow pays nothing in US taxes, etc, etc, etc.

CLIA even admits that the vast majority of taxes that the cruise lines pay is property taxes on the corporate headquarters, and social security withholdings on US corporate employees.  They pay virtually nothing.

[Formula280SS]

21 minutes ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

It is just laughable that people think that a coompany whose headquarters sits in Miami, Florida somehow pays nothing in US taxes, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

IMO, it's not really about not paying US taxes (employment taxes by employers and employees, sales and drinks taxes and other fees in some ports, or federal and state (if applicable) income taxes).  IMO, the real reason is that there are no votes to be gained from the ship employees to merit cause for consideration of relief, assistance or even timely protocol response.  

[roger001]

It's all about the virus.  When it is contained, we sail.  No virus, no CDC restrictions any longer.  

[logan25]

31 minutes ago, roger001 said:

It's all about the virus.  When it is contained, we sail.  No virus, no CDC restrictions any longer.  

If we are waiting for no virus, no sailing in this lifetime.  IMO

[DCGuy64]

15 hours ago, GA Dave said:

RCCL Held Up By CDC

The longer this goes on, the more I wonder if Richard Fain and the other CEO's won't just move their ships elsewhere, where they're at least legally ALLOWED to sail. However, I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that.

[rhblake]

2 minutes ago, Formula280SS said:

 

 

Can you point out where the OP and the Reply said he did?  TIA.

Well this is all about the CDC and the quote with the picture was "The "expert" is still there (after decades)". I was pointing out he is not with the CDC.