Should the Covid vaccine be required?

[d9704011]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I'm done. Bye.

I thought we had seen the last of you....

[davekathy]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

... I'm done. Bye.

Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye...

Edited April 15, 2021 by davekathy

[DCGuy64]

7 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

I thought we had seen the last of you....

Fat chance! LOL 😁 No, that comment (which you took out of context) was in reference to a particular poster, not the whole site. Sorry you missed that! 😂 I ain't going anywhere! (literally and figuratively)

[d9704011]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Fat chance! LOL 😁 No, that comment (which you took out of context) was in reference to a particular poster, not the whole site. Sorry you missed that! 😂 I ain't going anywhere! (literally and figuratively)

No, I understood what you originally meant.

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, d9704011 said:

No, I understood what you originally meant.

Which makes your comment all the more confusing. Alrighty then.... 👍

[Mapleleafforever]

8 hours ago, vacationlover_mn said:

Actually, regarding getting the virus after being fully vaxxed- this part is true.  Just read an article about breakthrough cases in MN.  We have had 88 here, and I can’t remember the hospitalizations... it is very low, like 20.  0 deaths.  We fully vaxed over 1.4 million, so 88 isn’t so bad.  I don’t know the age breakdown.

I don't even remember what I was replying to at the time, that was March 25 lol. 

[Missusdubbya]

19 hours ago, firefly333 said:

Again if I dont agree its misinformation. You also said I posted garbage. And when another poster complaining about the texas mask mandate being lifted, and said he wasnt coming to texas, henquoted me. You thought it was cute to say OMG me too. And have also posted you found unbiased news sources. There are no unbiased news sources here. I am entitled to my opinion, without being told its misinformation. Who made you the only correct source of information?

 

If you cant show respect why would you expect to get it? Saying I'm posting misinformation isnt exactly showing you get it. My OPINION is just as valid as yours... and it's a opinion, not factual. 

 

Kinda a lame apology, that now you add in you asked me to quit posting misinformation when I post my OPINION. Please be respectful of others. You are as biased as everyone, as we all are. No one, not even you is without bias. Let others post their opinions and be respectful. I'm done, just thought maybe you were big enough to admit what you said was wrong.

@firefly333 I am also permitted to have my opinion about your opinion, and I don’t have to agree with the statements you make. Respect is definitely a two way street. 

I am sorry I offended you though, this was not my intent. I apologise for the language used, I should have been more polite.

[BeachyBrowns]

Does anyone realize how few issues out there get 85% support?  Play this game with yourself: read through the comments on this thread and then guess what the percentages would be based on them.  You might guess over 50% support, but you would never guess 85%.

 

(This is why universal background check measures fail in Congress, BTW, despite having similar levels of support.)

[nomad098]

5 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Given that cruise lines have sailings all over the world, it will be interesting to see how the vaccination "requirement," if there is one, will be impacted by decisions like this one:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/council-of-eu-agrees-on-digital-vaccine-certificate-insists-it-must-not-become-a-precondition-for-travel/

"Last Tuesday, April 13, MEPs of the Civil Liberties Committee have quizzed the European Union Commissioner for Justice Didier Reynders on the Digital Green Certificate initiative. They have also insisted that the Commission must not permit the certificates to become a ‘de facto’ precondition for travelling throughout Europe."

 

It isn't clear to me whether cruise ships calling at various ports throughout Europe would constitute "travelling" as defined by the EU Council. Perhaps they're only referring to the freedom of people to move about by car, airplane, train, bus and ferry. I don't know if leisure cruising would meet that definition or not. But if it does, it would be very tricky for RCCL and others to insist that all passengers have a vaccine certificate in order to board a ship.

 

I tried explaining this a few months back, but many just do not get the EU mentality when it comes to free movement of people.

 

And yes this also applies to cruise ships, this is covered in EU maritime law and Travel directives, the laws were tightened up and expanded after Costa Concordia.

 

Cyprus presently requires all visitors to have both vaccinations, if the EU decide that Schengen nationals do not need to prove they are vaccinated then that will be the rule and Royal Caribbean will  have two choices accept the EU's decision or pull out of the EU market. Cyprus can still set its own rules for non Schengen visitors.

 

Lookup what the EU does to member countries who don't tow the EU line and businesses that the EU think are not compliant.

 

 

 

[vacationlover_mn]

1 hour ago, Mapleleafforever said:

I don't even remember what I was replying to at the time, that was March 25 lol. 

Lol- if I could just figure out how to double quote, that wouldn’t have been an issue 🙂

[easyqueasy]

4 minutes ago, vacationlover_mn said:

Lol- if I could just figure out how to double quote, that wouldn’t have been an issue 🙂

Just hit the + next to “quote” for all the quotes you want, if that’s what you’re talking about.

[broberts]

10 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Moving the goalposts, eh? Nope, I don't think so. The Schengen Zone is only a term for a geographic area comprising, I believe, a couple dozen countries. Having been to many of them, I can most assuredly tell you that they are NOT "effectively a single country." My example was given in order to refute the notion that allowing unvaccinated people onboard cruise ships would "inevitably" result in massive virus outbreaks and quarantined ships. Didn't happen. My example stands and is valid, even if you refuse to acknowledge it. Believe whatever you want, dude.

 

For the purpose of travel the Schengen zone is a single entity. Culturally and politically the countries are different but individuals in the zone, including visitors are free to move around the zone without restriction. That is why your example did not fit the argument you were making.

 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-countries-list/

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwizhrLksoHwAhVHiqwKHYfBAGUQmhMwDnoECBMQDQ&usg=AOvVaw1xm96CUzu00P7MmfsdjvyF

[d9704011]

6 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Which makes your comment all the more confusing. Alrighty then.... 👍

Not at all, I was just hopeful!

[dswallow]

99.992% of fully vaccinated people have dodged COVID, CDC data shows | Ars Technica

[BeachyBrowns]

10 hours ago, dswallow said:

99.992% of fully vaccinated people have dodged COVID, CDC data shows | Ars Technica

 

And here's the sad complement to that: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-15/unused-vaccines-are-piling-up-across-u-s-as-some-regions-resist

 

WE WON'T GET TO CRUISE AS NORMAL UNTIL 75-80% OF THE POPULATION IS VACCINATED, PEOPLE.  The half-capacity, masked-and-distanced cruises aren't going to satisfy cruisers or cruise lines for long.

[DCGuy64]

13 hours ago, broberts said:

 

For the purpose of travel the Schengen zone is a single entity. Culturally and politically the countries are different but individuals in the zone, including visitors are free to move around the zone without restriction. That is why your example did not fit the argument you were making.

 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-countries-list/

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwizhrLksoHwAhVHiqwKHYfBAGUQmhMwDnoECBMQDQ&usg=AOvVaw1xm96CUzu00P7MmfsdjvyF

You're correct, for the purposes of travel within the EU, the Schengen Area is like a single entity. But I believe we were talking about vaccinations, and there, it is not. Different countries within the Schengen Area have difference policies. I remember reading from the same source you quoted above (Schengenvisainfo.com) last year that while the EU could suggest that member countries close their borders due to Covid-19 concerns, it was ultimately up to the local governments in each country to make that decision. That's why, for instance, Croatia will allow people in, but France will not. Same with Cyprus. (side note: Croatia and Cyprus are both part of the EU, but not the Schengen Area) At this point, I think we're basically debating semantics and we're hair-splitting, which is not helpful. I was pushing back on the notion that the Schengen Area should be treated like a single entity; it isn't. I remember being shocked last spring when I saw that Italy had closed its border with Austria, it felt like I was reading something from wartime. Also, and perhaps you didn't intend this, but I read your comment as saying, essentially, Germany is the same as Portugal which is the same as Italy. Having spent a lot of time in all 3 countries, I can promise you that the people, culture, even languages, are quite different. Countries in Europe can set their own policies, which is why I'm keenly interested in seeing what happens if some countries there require vaccines to enter, and some do not. 

[dswallow]

2 hours ago, BeachyBrowns said:

 

And here's the sad complement to that: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-15/unused-vaccines-are-piling-up-across-u-s-as-some-regions-resist

 

WE WON'T GET TO CRUISE AS NORMAL UNTIL 75-80% OF THE POPULATION IS VACCINATED, PEOPLE.  The half-capacity, masked-and-distanced cruises aren't going to satisfy cruisers or cruise lines for long.

 

Cruises of 100% vaccinated would really be little different than the population in general having reached a high level of vaccination, better really since it'd be 100% vaccinated, not 80-90%. The doom and gloom is directed at a mixed population and always ignores the idea of looking at outcomes where you've gatherd only vaccinated people together in the controlled environment of a cruise ship.

[BeachyBrowns]

1 hour ago, dswallow said:

 

Cruises of 100% vaccinated would really be little different than the population in general having reached a high level of vaccination, better really since it'd be 100% vaccinated, not 80-90%. The doom and gloom is directed at a mixed population and always ignores the idea of looking at outcomes where you've gatherd only vaccinated people together in the controlled environment of a cruise ship.

Sure, but kids have to be factored in, and they can’t get vaccinated right now.  A 100% vaccinated cruise would have no kids on it.  And the lines are not about to disallow kids on cruises.  They would essentially shut out my demographic.  The consequence of the vaccine hesitancy in the article I posted is that the kids of the hesitant won’t get vaccinated either, and we won’t get to the vaccine uptake threshold we need for a very long time.  

[dswallow]

6 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Sure, but kids have to be factored in, and they can’t get vaccinated right now.  A 100% vaccinated cruise would have no kids on it.  And the lines are not about to disallow kids on cruises.  They would essentially shut out my demographic.  The consequence of the vaccine hesitancy in the article I posted is that the kids of the hesitant won’t get vaccinated either, and we won’t get to the vaccine uptake threshold we need for a very long time.  

 

Let me rephrase it a bit with the unvaccinated kids accounted for... 🙂

 

The kids are at risk. Not me. The parents are choosing to put their kids at risk. I'd rather they just not be there, like some cruise lines are doing, but I'm not worried about them being there in terms of my own safety.

 

And it still would be the equivalent of what we're currently going to get on land, if people weren't being such dolts about refusing vaccinations. There'd be no vaccinated kids (yet).

And if having unvaccinated kids on a cruise out of US ports is a problem then don't allow unvaccinated kids. Don't instead block all cruises. That's also the problem -- the apparent mixed messages in the end game of vaccination vs not even allowing or even admitting that vaccinated people can gather together, generally.

 

My point is that getting to some magic threshold only matters when you're continuing to mix with everyone. If you move to an area in complete isolation from the unvaccinated, or even where all adults are vaccinated and just kids mostly aren't (allowing there still can be 16 and 17 year-olds who are vaccinated) -- kids being some reasonable percentage of the population of the ship at most, it's a different equation.

[Biker19]

15 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

 And the lines are not about to disallow kids on cruises.

Are you sure?

[BeachyBrowns]

7 hours ago, Biker19 said:

Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure that cruise lines will not permanently cut young and middle-age adults with children out of their customer base.  I am quite sure of that.  Even if there are kid-free cruises as a stepping stone to full cruises, they will not be the permanent business model.

[Biker19]

19 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Even if there are kid-free cruises as a stepping stone to full cruises

I think that was the assumption and what I was referring to. 

[coffeebean]

On 4/14/2021 at 9:31 AM, sjg1973 said:

Well I  don't have it on my face, my chin or anywhere

You sound very proud of that fact.

[ReneeFLL]

9 hours ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Sure, but kids have to be factored in, and they can’t get vaccinated right now.  A 100% vaccinated cruise would have no kids on it.  And the lines are not about to disallow kids on cruises.  They would essentially shut out my demographic.  The consequence of the vaccine hesitancy in the article I posted is that the kids of the hesitant won’t get vaccinated either, and we won’t get to the vaccine uptake threshold we need for a very long time.  

 

1 hour ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Yes, I am sure that cruise lines will not permanently cut young and middle-age adults with children out of their customer base.  I am quite sure of that.  Even if there are kid-free cruises as a stepping stone to full cruises, they will not be the permanent business model.

Who said anything about permanently banning kids?  Amazing how people can twist words and pull things out of thin air. Royal will never permanently ban kids. Maybe in the beginning to help get cruises started, but that’s it. There will be more than enough people to fill the ships in the beginning with people without kids and people who will want a break from their kids. 😁

[kleine]

One thing that needs to be made absolutely clear is this: the CDC is NOT a governmental agency- it is an agency that has made billions off of this "pandemic."  

(Not that governmental agencies are to be trusted...)

Next- turning yourself into a lab rat to be able to travel is absurd.  There are ways to do it without injecting yourself with an experimental drug.

Anyone who wants to be free, or wants their children to be free need to stop this madness now.  See what/ or where these lab rats are in a few years who have this "vaccine" -