Natural immunity and no vaccine shot

[Joebucks]

56 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

What nonsense. If someone can get sick from Covid, or pass it on while being asymptomatic, then the vaccine helps. Thousands of young and healthy people have died, and many thousands more have been hospitalized.

 

You betray a horrifyingly common misconception of statistics: 1% of 20 million people worldwide is still 200,000. But maybe you don't give two hoots about the ones who have died because they are old, or have comorbidities, and you think, "Eh, not my group." Your group is the entire human race, all of whom are at risk in some fashion, even if only by grieving people they lose.

 

 

Another science post devoid of any fact and sprinkled with emotion and superior morality. 1% of young people worldwide are not at risk of dying. Healthy people are not dying in any significant pattern. Just because fear-mongering, deceptive, news articles may post about 1, with many details masked, doesn't make it common. No one ever said they don't care about the at-risk crowd. Data shows they will benefit from the vaccine. It's good that we offer it. No amount of snide remarks say everyone needs it. 

 

35 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

You maintain that masks do absolutely nothing to affect the spread of covid-19?

 

We can talk in circles about this for hours. Does it have some helping effect? Looks like it. Let's not ignore the facts:

 

- COVID ran rampant despite mask mandates

- States that recently lifted it did not melt down

- The virus is aerosol

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

A piece of cloth does not protect you from an aerosol virus. 

No, of course it doesn't.  But it helps stop you expelling aerosol droplets into the atmosphere,  and therefore transmitting the disease if you are a carrier. 

So, you wear a mask for the sake of others, not for yourself.

The good thing about the current situation regarding mask wearing, is that it makes it easy to spot those around us who have an over abundance of self importance, compared to those who look out for their fellow humans.

As an aside, you seem to have completely forgotten about long Covid,  and the severe medical issues that thousands of Covid survivors are now experiencing, but that does not fit in with your agenda. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by wowzz

[hallux]

Nope, a "piece of cloth" doesn't help at all, sure. /s

Believe what you wish, but this video proves that wearing a mask significantly reduces the dispersion of droplets from you when you cough or sneeze, which helped to reduce spread of disease...

 

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

10 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This just about sums it up.

 

I'm disheartened by -- and just plain tired of -- hearing from people who seem to think every physician is out there falsely diagnosing COVID and pushing vaccines. People need to get out of their conspiracy theory bubble.

For the most part physicians are not doing the diagnoses.  Positivity is being determine by a test whose results are very sensitive to the number of cycles run.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Toofarfromthesea

[broberts]

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

Does it have some helping effect? Looks like it.

 

That is my entire point. I'm sick and tired of being told that mask wearing does nothing to ameliorate spread of the virus. I'm not interested in discussing the why or proper public policy approach in this forum.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

No, of course it doesn't.  But it helps stop you expelling aerosol droplets into the atmosphere,  and therefore transmitting the disease if you are a carrier. 

So, you wear a mask for the sake of others, not for yourself.

...

As an aside, you seem to have completely forgotten about long Covid,  and the severe medical issues that thousands of Covid survivors are now experiencing, but that does not fit in with your agenda. 

You have to realize that the "sake of others" is a meaningless concept to the people you are trying to educate/civilize.

[Anita Latte]

2 hours ago, wowzz said:

The good thing about the current situation regarding mask wearing, is that it makes it easy to spot those around us who have an over abundance of self importance, compared to those who look out for their fellow humans.

I would caution your automatic judgement that assumes that all those vaccinated are comfortable with not wearing masks. There are all kinds of special interest stories regarding various reasons vaccinated individuals are continuing to wear masks, not all are COVID related fears. Wearing or

not wearing a mask is not an accurate indicator of vaccine status.

[ilikeanswers]

I reckon if Dr Gérald Mesny had a second go he would take the piece of supposedly ineffective cloth and wrap it around his mouth😜. 

[ldubs]

5 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

Another science post devoid of any fact and sprinkled with emotion and superior morality. 1% of young people worldwide are not at risk of dying. Healthy people are not dying in any significant pattern. Just because fear-mongering, deceptive, news articles may post about 1, with many details masked, doesn't make it common. No one ever said they don't care about the at-risk crowd. Data shows they will benefit from the vaccine. It's good that we offer it. No amount of snide remarks say everyone needs it. 

 

 

 

I suppose "Everyone doesn't need it" is a fact.  But that is only focused on the individual's risk factor and ignores the overriding objective to stop the spread of the virus.   Put all of those individuals together and it is the same as suggesting that COVID should have been allowed to run rampant among the population below age 50.   Such plan would basically help the pandemic spread even more than it did, not to mention create a perfect environment new variants.   

 

If everyone tries hard to do their part, this pandemic will end all that much faster, and we can get back to talking about cruises.  

 

Note: No snide remarks were used in the making of this post.   

 

    

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

I reckon if Dr Gérald Mesny had a second go he would take the piece of supposedly ineffective cloth and wrap it around his mouth😜. 

I hope you don’t think many of these luddites have the faintest idea of the identity of Dr. Mesny.

[ldubs]

21 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I hope you don’t think many of these luddites have the faintest idea of the identity of Dr. Mesny.

 

Or the identity of Edward (Ned) Ludlam.   😄

[wowzz]

6 hours ago, Anita Latte said:

I would caution your automatic judgement that assumes that all those vaccinated are comfortable with not wearing masks. There are all kinds of special interest stories regarding various reasons vaccinated individuals are continuing to wear masks, not all are COVID related fears. Wearing or

not wearing a mask is not an accurate indicator of vaccine status.

That was not my point. Everyone, vaccinated or not, shouid continue to wear a mask, as it is still possible to transmit Covid,  even after vaccination (although research shows that the the risk drops considerably after vaccination)

My comment was aimed at those people who do not wear a mask at all,  regardless of their vaccination status - they are the ones showing no respect for their fellow human beings. 

[Joebucks]

14 hours ago, wowzz said:

No, of course it doesn't.  But it helps stop you expelling aerosol droplets into the atmosphere,  and therefore transmitting the disease if you are a carrier. 

So, you wear a mask for the sake of others, not for yourself.

The good thing about the current situation regarding mask wearing, is that it makes it easy to spot those around us who have an over abundance of self importance, compared to those who look out for their fellow humans.

As an aside, you seem to have completely forgotten about long Covid,  and the severe medical issues that thousands of Covid survivors are now experiencing, but that does not fit in with your agenda. 

 

This is why it is pointless to discuss COVID and so many have just stopped. I don't know why I continue. When you look at the facts, some people aren't impacted much at all. Some measures, haven't shown to be effective. COVID ran wild. Yet all we circle back to is emotional arguments "care for others" "what about people who have had long-term impacts". Sure those things sound nice, and you have virtue signaled the hardest, but what do they really mean? Even if masking was effective, who am I protecting? The people who didn't get vaccinated? The same people you yell at because they are "anti-vaxxers?" Do you agree at that point that it's their fault? Are you in for protecting them? Or what level of double-standard are we leaning on today?

 

14 hours ago, hallux said:

Nope, a "piece of cloth" doesn't help at all, sure. /s

Believe what you wish, but this video proves that wearing a mask significantly reduces the dispersion of droplets from you when you cough or sneeze, which helped to reduce spread of disease...

 

 

 

The "but the sneezing!" arguments are another example of sounding good, but what is the actual, factual, impact? What's the data of people eating others coughs and sneezes? It's not a new discussion to avoid running into sneeze clouds. The CDC says these droplets fall out of the air shortly. You aren't anymore informed because you can see the cloud. You can't see the aerosol COVID that the CDC talked about, is that why we ignore it? So save your "but it's better" platitudes. Many states have gotten rid of masks long ago and don't show a significant difference in outcome. There's a reason why the mask mandate was dropped. We are not counting on preventing the spread of infectious disease on the honor system.

 

9 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I suppose "Everyone doesn't need it" is a fact.  But that is only focused on the individual's risk factor and ignores the overriding objective to stop the spread of the virus.   Put all of those individuals together and it is the same as suggesting that COVID should have been allowed to run rampant among the population below age 50.   Such plan would basically help the pandemic spread even more than it did, not to mention create a perfect environment new variants.   

 

If everyone tries hard to do their part, this pandemic will end all that much faster, and we can get back to talking about cruises.  

 

Note: No snide remarks were used in the making of this post.   

 

Again, "everyone does their part" is another high on the list of nice-sounding things. Looking at actual fact and data, at recent pandemics like SARS and H1N1 for example, we never stopped the spread. We learned to live and deal with it. They are still here! Those concerned with the flu, have access to the annual vaccine. It's incredible naive to expect that we can get rid of COVID if you truly understand highly infectious disease. It very likely all started with 1 individual and look where it went. 

 

The victim politics of "other people need to change" is a never-ending, bottomless pit, of victim dependence. It will never, ever, ever, ever fix any of your problems. It's effective politics. There are an abundance of options to protect yourself. Research what they are and what works best for you an your family. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach on almost everything in life. We often gravitate that way because it is easy, convenient, or someone told us. It's amazing how much we virtue signal that we need to "protect others" when we have a vaccine that delivers this protection. Like really think about that.

 

Now commence emotional attacks from the usual few because obviously all I just said I don't care about grandma

[2wheelin]

5 hours ago, wowzz said:

That was not my point. Everyone, vaccinated or not, shouid continue to wear a mask, as it is still possible to transmit Covid,  even after vaccination (although research shows that the the risk drops considerably after vaccination)

My comment was aimed at those people who do not wear a mask at all,  regardless of their vaccination status - they are the ones showing no respect for their fellow human beings. 

So when would you suggest that anyone anywhere could possibly go without a mask around other people? The likelihood of a vaccinated person infecting someone is about the same as the likelihood of an adverse effect from the vaccine (which you all find perfectly acceptable). 

There will always be unvaccinated people and the vast majority of them will never get sick no matter what you do. Thankfully masks are rapidly becoming collector items.

The double standard phenomenon is alive and well among the self righteous do gooders. 

[broberts]

1 minute ago, 2wheelin said:

The double standard phenomenon is alive and well among the self righteous do gooders. 

 

Don't restrict the behavior to one group. Everyone, and I do mean everyone has double standards. 

[Anita Latte]

6 hours ago, wowzz said:

That was not my point. Everyone, vaccinated or not, shouid continue to wear a mask, as it is still possible to transmit Covid,  even after vaccination (although research shows that the the risk drops considerably after vaccination)

My comment was aimed at those people who do not wear a mask at all,  regardless of their vaccination status - they are the ones showing no respect for their fellow human beings. 

 

Ok. Perhaps the UK and the USA have different policies at this time? Our latest official advice has stated that if you are fully vaccinated, then you don’t have to wear a mask any longer, with few, but some, exceptions. States and stores are choosing to follow the advice or not, so as a policy, it hasn’t been fully embraced immediately throughout the US. Some states have announced future effective dates, some national chains have implemented the new mask free rule where local regulations allow, some haven’t, etc. Regardless, not all individuals who have been vaccinated are ready to embrace maskless life even if they “legally” can, which is what prompted my response. If the UK is still under a full time mask mandate, then my comment doesn’t really apply, but this explanation is why I commented.

[wowzz]

2 minutes ago, Anita Latte said:

If the UK is still under a full time mask mandate, then my comment doesn’t really apply, but this explanation is why I commented.

At present, in the UK, masks are required to be worn by all adults, in indoor situations,  unless you are seated at a table and are eating or drinking.  

Thus is obviously a sensible requirement,  as all adults in the UK will not receive their first vaccine until the end of July  (currently 30 and 31 year olds are being vaccinated), plus of course the highly transmissible Indian variant has taken hold in a number of locations, so even more important to  be prudent. 

[Anita Latte]

5 minutes ago, wowzz said:

At present, in the UK, masks are required to be worn by all adults, in indoor situations,  unless you are seated at a table and are eating or drinking.  

Thus is obviously a sensible requirement,  as all adults in the UK will not receive their first vaccine until the end of July  (currently 30 and 31 year olds are being vaccinated), plus of course the highly transmissible Indian variant has taken hold in a number of locations, so even more important to  be prudent. 

 

The USA eligibility is 12 and older years of age, so I guess we’ve decided masks are optional for fully vaccinated. We flew through the eligibility I think, because of lack of demand and the effort to not waste doses since the shelf life of opened vaccines is relatively short. I think Pfizer has 6 hours once the main vaccine vial is opened? And there’s over 1000 doses in the large quantity vials? Moderna has fewer doses in the big vial (under 1000)...and still a short shelf life but not sure if it is quite as short as 6 hours? Anyway, the effort over here is focused on incentives to get vaccinated because the demand has seriously dropped off. Our mass vaccination sites are closing and states are refusing their full allotment of vaccines because of the lack of demand. The latest mask “rules” from the CDC are seen by some as another incentive for the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. Wearing a mask now is bit like wearing a scarlet letter...or, it could be if people want to look at others with judgment and condemnation. There’s fear that instead of being peer pressured into getting vaccinated, the unvaccinated will just stop wearing masks...it’s all a bit of a mess really.

[wowzz]

23 minutes ago, Anita Latte said:

 

The USA eligibility is 12 and older years of age, so I guess we’ve decided masks are optional for fully vaccinated. We flew through the eligibility I think, because of lack of demand and the effort to not waste doses since the shelf life of opened vaccines is relatively short. I think Pfizer has 6 hours once the main vaccine vial is opened? And there’s over 1000 doses in the large quantity vials? Moderna has fewer doses in the big vial (under 1000)...and still a short shelf life but not sure if it is quite as short as 6 hours? Anyway, the effort over here is focused on incentives to get vaccinated because the demand has seriously dropped off. Our mass vaccination sites are closing and states are refusing their full allotment of vaccines because of the lack of demand. The latest mask “rules” from the CDC are seen by some as another incentive for the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. Wearing a mask now is bit like wearing a scarlet letter...or, it could be if people want to look at others with judgment and condemnation. There’s fear that instead of being peer pressured into getting vaccinated, the unvaccinated will just stop wearing masks...it’s all a bit of a mess really.

Still vaccinating over half a million people daily in the UK  (mixture of 1st and 2nd doses) and it looks pretty certain that the magic 70% vaccination figure will be easily achieved, and hopefully nearer 80%, which gives greater protection against more transmissible variants. 

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

This is why it is pointless to discuss COVID and so many have just stopped. I don't know why I continue. When you look at the facts, some people aren't impacted much at all. Some measures, haven't shown to be effective. COVID ran wild. Yet all we circle back to is emotional arguments "care for others" "what about people who have had long-term impacts". Sure those things sound nice, and you have virtue signaled the hardest, but what do they really mean? Even if masking was effective, who am I protecting? The people who didn't get vaccinated? The same people you yell at because they are "anti-vaxxers?" Do you agree at that point that it's their fault? Are you in for protecting them? Or what level of double-standard are we leaning on today?

 

The "but the sneezing!" arguments are another example of sounding good, but what is the actual, factual, impact? What's the data of people eating others coughs and sneezes? It's not a new discussion to avoid running into sneeze clouds. The CDC says these droplets fall out of the air shortly. You aren't anymore informed because you can see the cloud. You can't see the aerosol COVID that the CDC talked about, is that why we ignore it? So save your "but it's better" platitudes. Many states have gotten rid of masks long ago and don't show a significant difference in outcome. There's a reason why the mask mandate was dropped. We are not counting on preventing the spread of infectious disease on the honor system.

 

Again, "everyone does their part" is another high on the list of nice-sounding things. Looking at actual fact and data, at recent pandemics like SARS and H1N1 for example, we never stopped the spread. We learned to live and deal with it. They are still here! Those concerned with the flu, have access to the annual vaccine. It's incredible naive to expect that we can get rid of COVID if you truly understand highly infectious disease. It very likely all started with 1 individual and look where it went. 

 

The victim politics of "other people need to change" is a never-ending, bottomless pit, of victim dependence. It will never, ever, ever, ever fix any of your problems. It's effective politics. There are an abundance of options to protect yourself. Research what they are and what works best for you an your family. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach on almost everything in life. We often gravitate that way because it is easy, convenient, or someone told us. It's amazing how much we virtue signal that we need to "protect others" when we have a vaccine that delivers this protection. Like really think about that.

 

Now commence emotional attacks from the usual few because obviously all I just said I don't care about grandma

 

Perhaps you should move to India. You and their government are on the same page😂

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

 

 

Again, "everyone does their part" is another high on the list of nice-sounding things. Looking at actual fact and data, at recent pandemics like SARS and H1N1 for example, we never stopped the spread. We learned to live and deal with it. They are still here! Those concerned with the flu, have access to the annual vaccine. It's incredible naive to expect that we can get rid of COVID if you truly understand highly infectious disease. It very likely all started with 1 individual and look where it went. 

 

The victim politics of "other people need to change" is a never-ending, bottomless pit, of victim dependence. It will never, ever, ever, ever fix any of your problems. It's effective politics. There are an abundance of options to protect yourself. Research what they are and what works best for you an your family. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach on almost everything in life. We often gravitate that way because it is easy, convenient, or someone told us. It's amazing how much we virtue signal that we need to "protect others" when we have a vaccine that delivers this protection. Like really think about that.

 

Now commence emotional attacks from the usual few because obviously all I just said I don't care about grandma

 

I'm sorry Joebucks but we are very far apart. I responded to your previous comment with my arguments for widespread use of the vaccine which includes a heavy dose of a common goal to address the pandemic.   It is convenient to toss this aside by claiming it is an "emotional" attack.    During a bad pandemic I happen to feel strongly that it is good to have common goals set by responsible experts.   I do not agree with you and others that everyone should just do their own thing.            

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach on almost everything in life. We often gravitate that way because it is easy, convenient, or someone told us. It's amazing how much we virtue signal that we need to "protect others" when we have a vaccine that delivers this protection. Like really think about that.

 

There are any number of good responses to this nonsense.

• Not everyone can take the vaccine (and I don't mean bogus reasons, but those allergic to components used or those with certain autoimmune conditions, etc.)
• We do not yet know how long we can expect to see a "durable immunity" -- and older people, who have weaker immune systems, usually develop a less robust and durable immunity when exposed to either infection or vaccination. And as they generally have worse outcomes from COVID, they need to be protected. 
• Natural infection continues to circulate in the unvaccinated population. It's very likely that because of this, a variant or variants will likely evolve that will be different enough from the original virus so that neither vaccination nor previous infection control it. And you have another "wave", with no protection.

These are just from the top of my head. 

 

And since when did thinking of others become vilified as "virtue signaling".  I find it totally repugnant that caring about other people has been demonized with such a trivializing phrase. Not to mention that it is antithetical to the ideals on which this country was supposedly founded (and which can be traced back to Western philosophical ideals all the way back to Plato, Aristotle, et al....)

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by cruisemom42

[Toofarfromthesea]

Going back to the title of the thread, OOOPS:

 

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-05/elf-ciw052421.php

 

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/

[mayleeman]

6 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Going back to the title of the thread, OOOPS:

 

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-05/elf-ciw052421.php

 

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/

 

So, it would be great then, right, if people could just plan on having a mild case? But for some: "Uh oh, sorry, yours is really bad! See you once you are off the ventilator!"

 

Sooooo much better than a vaccine....

[Hlitner]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:38 PM, broberts said:

 

That is my entire point. I'm sick and tired of being told that mask wearing does nothing to ameliorate spread of the virus. I'm not interested in discussing the why or proper public policy approach in this forum.

Yes, we hear this everyday.  When folks do not know how to defend their position they simply find a way to stop the discussion.  If you are convinced that mask wearing (even if it is a knitted mask that one can see through) ameliorates spread please cite the study(s) that support your belief.  Personally I do believe that a respirator mask such as N95 or KN95 that is properly fitted and worn does help.  But much of the other garbage that is used by most folks for masking and not properly fitted (if it is not air tight it is not too helpful) is of little help in preventing COVID.  Viruses are very tiny and will pass through most masks like a knife through butter.  Why do you think there has been an effort to convert many air filtration systems to high quality HEPA filters?  Do you think that lesser filters (like basic fabric masks) might not work?

 

And here is something for you to ponder.  Since we now know that fully vaccinated folks do not generally get COVID and do not spread COVID...why do some places demand that fully vaccinated folks wear masks?

 

Hank