Natural immunity and no vaccine shot

[ldubs]

4 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

If we start demanding people change behavior because the behavior poses a miniscule risk to others there would be a lot of things banned before being unvaccinated.  Every time you get in your car you pose a greater risk to others than an un-vaccinated person poses to vaccinated people.

You demonstrate the 'if it saves just one person' mentality that demands 100% safety no matter what the cost.

 

I am far from one who is promoting zero risk.  Driving a car has inherent risks.  They are multiplied to unacceptable levels by those who drive recklessly.   

 

[ldubs]

29 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

It isn't the purchase of the items themselves, it is the long term patent protection against competition that allows for monopoly pricing,  Remember the epipen(sp?) price increase scandal?  

 

 

Epipen -- that is a very good point.  

[cruisemom42]

9 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Why do you believe that un-vaccinated people pose a risk to you despite you being fully vaccinated?  Even the CDC says that is highly unlikely.  Do you not believe the vaccine works?

 

I'm not sure of the extent to which I think unvaccinated people pose a risk to me "personally", as I am very careful myself regarding situational exposure.

 

However, I remain VERY concerned about the impact of those who choose to not be vaccinated at a public health or societal level, as it appears quite likely that variants will continue to evolve in this population (already proven to be true) and that one or more of these variants will eventually be infectious enough to overcome the protection afforded by vaccines -- and thus we will be back to square one in creating some sort of large-scale immunity.

 

[ldubs]

17 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Why do you believe that un-vaccinated people pose a risk to you despite you being fully vaccinated?  Even the CDC says that is highly unlikely.  Do you not believe the vaccine works?

 

Because the vaccine does not protect me against anti-vaxxer claptrap.  

[SelectSys]

1 minute ago, ldubs said:

 

I could post articles describing the social consciousness, drive and achievement characteristics of the boomer generation.  That is the thing about the internet.  We can find some quote to support whatever we want.  I do think us boomers had opportunities, but we also had good role models from depression era parents.   It is kind of funny that the wording in your story is often used, and even more harshly, to describe the millennials.  Maybe each new generation is considered lazy and self absorbed by those who went before.  

Of course, that is why I posted it as simply my opinion and not a fact.  Reasonable people can come to different opinions.

 

I agree regarding the opportunities generally for Boomers were pretty magical  at least for me personally.  I see things being tougher for the millennials coming of age now.  I attribute some of issues millennials having as function of their Boomer parents as role models compared to our own depression era parents.  Again this is just an opinion.

[cruisemom42]

39 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

I live in an area that is very big in bio tech and pharma (#5 in the US according the link below.)  My daughter works in the industry and I have friends and neighbors who have been on the VC-funded biotech train for many years. I can tell you that the desire for financial success is very strong among the investors, founders/scientists and key employees.

 

Again, financial success is not greed. Without financial success, most companies cannot continue!

 

I've worked for 3 of the "Big Pharma" at various points of my career. Granted I am not in the C-suite, but I see most of the people around me are extremely dedicated to the end-goal of scientific discovery that prevents or treats disease. Maybe start-ups are a bit different, but I can't imagine dedicated scientists, lab workers, etc. working 10-12 hour days under challenging COVID conditions over the last 16 months merely to fill the company coffers.

 

[capriccio]

39 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Maybe each new generation is considered lazy and self absorbed by those who went before.  

 

No maybes about it!  According to a quote attributed to Socrates by Plato,

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

 

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, capriccio said:

 

No maybes about it!  According to a quote attributed to Socrates by Plato,

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

 

Yep, that leg crossing is completely out of hand!   😄 

[Anita Latte]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

5 months ago, 1000 people a day in the UK were dying of Covid. Thanks to vaccinations, with an  extremely high take up level (over 95% of the over 65s)  the daily number is now between 5 and 20.  

The areas with continued high levels of CV19 are those with low uptake of vaccinations - the correlation is clear. If people don't get vaccinated,  the pandemic will continue.  

 

Sitting on the toilet for long periods of time is one of the greatest contributors to anal hemorrhoids. “Studies” 😂 show that many many people spend most of their reading time while on the toilet. The correlation is clear...reading is a leading contributor to anal hemorrhoids. Anyone who has taken a class requiring drawing conclusions from available data has heard this one. There may be a correlation but let’s be clear, vaccines will not end the pandemic. Vaccines were never intended to end the pandemic...they were intended to mitigate deaths and severe covid cases but never stop covid cases.

 

Not a single covid vaccine is 100% effective. Not a single covid vaccine is a sterilizing vaccine. Covid will continue to spread even if the entire world is vaccinated. You know what might stop the pandemic? Effective treatment. The sterilizing treatment pill that may be offered by the end of the year. THAT may end the current pandemic.

[c-boy]

 

what's happening to this thread

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Without financial success, most companies cannot continue!

I would suggest that no private company can operate long term without being financially successful for someone or something.  Even non-profits need to balance the books via sales or funding of some kind.  Some non-profits are quite generous to their employees and leaders.

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

most of the people around me are extremely dedicated to the end-goal of scientific discovery that prevents or treats disease

I don't doubt this.

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Maybe start-ups are a bit different, but I can't imagine dedicated scientists, lab workers, etc. working 10-12 hour days under challenging COVID conditions

Startups are a bit different.  Certainly the founders/investors are interested in making a score and motivate their employees to work hard.  I remember the first start up I worked at back in the mid 80's where the CEO implored us to work nights and weekends.  The bought us beer on Fridays and lunch.  We were a big family.  Then the CEO sold for $35 million (a fair amount of money in 1987!) and walked away. 

 

Was the CEO a bad person?  No.  I learned a lot from the experience and it helped shape my future involvement with other startups and companies.   

[spookwife]

On 5/12/2021 at 8:08 PM, Hangman115 said:

R

Read the new updated CDC guidebook. Cannot find the answer. Maybe someone can share some advice.

millions and tens of millions who had covid and lived. Science and a few of my doctors saym those who had covid now have buikt up a natural immunity. Sorta like the chicken pox. They do not need a vaccine shot. No science has shown getting a vaccine shot will get them double immunity.
 

So all I see is you MUST get a shot and prove it with you CDC shot card. These tens of millions will not have a card and will not have the shot. So will my two friends be denied boardiing since they have built up natural immunity, according to their doctor?I looked again and still do not see this. What about the n

 

You can get it more than once.  I have three family members who got it twice.  You can bet the farm they got vaccinated too.  
 

It does no harm to get vaccinated after already having C19.  

[DirtyDawg]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Again, financial success is not greed. Without financial success, most companies cannot continue!

 

I've worked for 3 of the "Big Pharma" at various points of my career. Granted I am not in the C-suite, but I see most of the people around me are extremely dedicated to the end-goal of scientific discovery that prevents or treats disease. Maybe start-ups are a bit different, but I can't imagine dedicated scientists, lab workers, etc. working 10-12 hour days under challenging COVID conditions over the last 16 months merely to fill the company coffers.

 

As a long time investor in "Big Pharma" company stocks , I would like to thank you and your colleagues for your efforts. My retirement savings are much healthier due to your efforts at "Big Pharma". 😉

[wowzz]

3 hours ago, Anita Latte said:

 

Sitting on the toilet for long periods of time is one of the greatest contributors to anal hemorrhoids. “Studies” 😂 show that many many people spend most of their reading time while on the toilet. The correlation is clear...reading is a leading contributor to anal hemorrhoids. Anyone who has taken a class requiring drawing conclusions from available data has heard this one. There may be a correlation but let’s be clear, vaccines will not end the pandemic. Vaccines were never intended to end the pandemic...they were intended to mitigate deaths and severe covid cases but never stop covid cases.

 

Not a single covid vaccine is 100% effective. Not a single covid vaccine is a sterilizing vaccine. Covid will continue to spread even if the entire world is vaccinated. You know what might stop the pandemic? Effective treatment. The sterilizing treatment pill that may be offered by the end of the year. THAT may end the current pandemic.

Thank you for your input. I'm sure the relatives of the 120,000+ people who have died in the UK from CV19 will  be grateful for your insight.

[navybankerteacher]

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Because the vaccine does not protect me against anti-vaxxer claptrap.  

You might add:

Un-vaccinated people maintain a pool of potential COVID victims - whose medical care costs EVERYONE.

Un-vaccinated people prolong the period during which responsible governments have to maintain restrictions which harm EVERYONE’s economy.

Unvaccinated people prolong the period of wide contagion during which the virus mutates, guaranteeing that it will become endemic and thereby impact EVERYONE.

 

[Joebucks]

6 hours ago, wowzz said:

5 months ago, 1000 people a day in the UK were dying of Covid. Thanks to vaccinations, with an  extremely high take up level (over 95% of the over 65s)  the daily number is now between 5 and 20.  

The areas with continued high levels of CV19 are those with low uptake of vaccinations - the correlation is clear. If people don't get vaccinated,  the pandemic will continue.  

 

Did you really backup the "everyone needs vaccinated" claim with "when the small group at risk of dying of COVID got vaccinated, deaths plummeted?"

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

You might add:

Un-vaccinated people maintain a pool of potential COVID victims - whose medical care costs EVERYONE.

Un-vaccinated people prolong the period during which responsible governments have to maintain restrictions which harm EVERYONE’s economy.

Unvaccinated people prolong the period of wide contagion during which the virus mutates, guaranteeing that it will become endemic and thereby impact EVERYONE.

 

 

Yes, and post #128 explained things pretty well too I thought.   

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, SelectSys said:

Reasonable people can come to different opinions.

 

 

 

Out opinions will likely match before this thread is over!  😄

[Hlitner]

With all due respect to our poster from the UK, these vaccines are simply fantastic!  I spent a lifetime in healthcare world and we never had these kind of tools so early in the process.  The two mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) although said to be about 96% effective appear to be closer to 99% effective at protection fully vaccinated recipients.  The J&J/Jansen is not quite as effective but is still about 66% effective and near 100% effective at preventing serious cases, hospitalization, and death.  The Astra-Zenica vaccine (not used here in the USA) is also very effective.

 

Our friend from the UK says vaccines will not end the pandemic and that is only true if folks are not vaccinated.  But the sad truth (which many officials do not want to repeat) is that once fully vaccinated you have little to fear from the unvaccinated who only have themselves and COVID to fear.   Bottom line is get yourself vaccinated, enjoy felling liberated, and go on about your life while others (with agendas) continue to debate stuff that is not relevant to your own safety.  When I worked in pubic health we were taught to respect everyone and not be too critical of folks who resisted good vaccines/treatment.  But I am retired now and find myself somewhat critical for the unvaccinated.  It is tempting to say that if those folks get sick it is their own darn fault (in public health you would never say such a thing).  I do believe that once vaccines are easily available (as they are in the USA) that it is time to eliminate restrictions and let the chips fall where they may.   The UK will soon be a similar situation (with vaccines readily available to everyone) and I hope that most of the EU gets their vaccine act together in the next few months.  

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, Anita Latte said:

 

...

Not a single covid vaccine is 100% effective. Not a single covid vaccine is a sterilizing vaccine. Covid will continue to spread even if the entire world is vaccinated. You know what might stop the pandemic? Effective treatment. The sterilizing treatment pill that may be offered by the end of the year. THAT may end the current pandemic.

Prevention beats treatment every time.  We have seen that the vaccines, while perhaps not 100% effective across the board, are highly effective in preventing serious illness.  When applied across the board vaccine is pretty inexpensive -- while treatment --- which at this time might involve anything from one day to several months hospitalization --- is very expensive -- and to date has not seen anything near the success rate that prevention has.  

 

Please just THINK.

[ilikeanswers]

9 hours ago, SelectSys said:

Sorry, I don't buy this statement.  Novel substances and compounds are made in the lab that don't occur in nature.  For many years, scientists have extended the periodic table with elements that don't occur naturally.  More to the point, I'll bet you might have difficulty finding an mRNA vaccine occurring in nature outside the lab.    

 

You kind of contradicted yourself. You said it is made in the lab. Therefore it is not the source of the chemicals. You look at the definition of source it is where something originates from. An mRNA vaccine is a final product that combines many sources of chemical to create it. Even a synthesised chemical while it is made in a lab needs different chemicals to create it therefore by definition it is not a source product. 

[mayleeman]

@Anita Latte Are you vaccinated against measles or polio? Did you research those to death before getting those?

 

I do think some people are being harsh with you, but they have had these conversations before and it is frustrating to see people insist on long-term data about safety before they will credit the year-long data about both the safety and effectiveness.

 

Keep an open mind and try to figure out why your fear of an unknown requires total disproof (and really, how can anyone prove a negative?) when you are discounting information showing how to avoid a known danger that has infected and killed millions?

 

Your blood clot concerns are worthy of consideration. Please read more about these without being so suspicious of people's motives (my biggest concern about you discounting positive information about the vax). You will likely find the odds of having clotting complications from the virus are almost infinitissimal compared to the odds of clotting complications from Covid.

 

My last point is to suggest you look at how many ways you trust scientists and many other actors in your life without realizing it. Unless you:  grow and harvest all your food, draw all your water from sources that you test using your own chemicals, don't drive, built your own home with materials you made, make your own clothes from fibers you harvested, etc etc etc, you are trusting thousands of other people to have done their jobs correctly in keeping you safe. All of those things if done improperly could result in an allergic reaction, poisoning, collapse, illness, and death. I doubt if you could possibly check all the things that have a higher chance of hurting you, without the huge benefit, compared to the vaccine. Why trust those unknown people and not the medical professionals who do not have much ulterior motive in urging you to avail yourself of this extraordinary chance to stay alive?

 

Oh, one thing: using stubbornness to avoid a decision is a characteristic that is not always wise. "I am close-minded" seems to be keeping you from processing the multiple sources of information you claim to be researching.

 

It is good you are keeping safe. But it is also true that you cannot anticipate every contingency that could overcome your best efforts, and then you might indeed be faced with the horror of knowing you infected someone else.

 

Good luck.

Edited May 19, 2021 by mayleeman

[ilikeanswers]

9 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

If we start demanding people change behavior because the behavior poses a miniscule risk to others there would be a lot of things banned before being unvaccinated.  Every time you get in your car you pose a greater risk to others than an un-vaccinated person poses to vaccinated people.

 

The car analogy is terrible because we do a lot to mitigate risk and change behaviour. We penalise people for driving drunk, we make you get a licence to drive to prove you are qualified to operate said vehicle, we build roads in certain ways to control how people drive their vehicles. We don't just let people to what they want when they drive a car. 

[cruisemom42]

8 hours ago, Anita Latte said:

Sitting on the toilet for long periods of time is one of the greatest contributors to anal hemorrhoids. “Studies” 😂 show that many many people spend most of their reading time while on the toilet. The correlation is clear...reading is a leading contributor to anal hemorrhoids. Anyone who has taken a class requiring drawing conclusions from available data has heard this one. There may be a correlation but let’s be clear, vaccines will not end the pandemic. Vaccines were never intended to end the pandemic...

 

The problem with your correlation is this: one can easily disprove the false correlation by designing a study that tests the hypothesis:  assign one group to read while sitting on the toilet and another group to read while sitting in a normal chair. Then compare the results between the groups.

 

This is exactly what is done when vaccine efficacy is tested.  Not only do we have the results of the controlled, blinded trials that were strictly carried out as required for regulatory approval (in which a vaccinated group is compared with a placebo-control group), but also the much larger scale (but less scientifically controlled) "real world" data that has been gathered and compared since the vaccines became widely available.

 

No vaccine is 100% effective, not even the smallpox vaccine -- which has very similar efficacy to the mRNA COVID vaccines.  Yet it is the success of this vaccine, not any therapy, that led to the eradication of this disease worldwide by the 1980s.

 

[wowzz]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Our friend from the UK says vaccines will not end the pandemic and that is only true if folks are not vaccinated

Sorry, but if that is how you interpreted my position, I did not make myself clear. 

Vaccinations will indeed end the pandemic, and that is clearly evident from the UK figures.

However, there are geographic hotspots in the UK, where CV levels remain high, and these areas correspond to low uptake of vaccines.