Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids

[Tapi]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

I think the cruise lines will continue their course with July and August sailings.  

Speaking of sensible, THAT sounds very sensible! 😀
 

I just hope that politics can be placed aside, and that a, (once again), SENSIBLE resolution can be reached. Cruise lines can’t afford to gamble right now, which is why I feel

confident that they’ll come up with appropriate protocols, even in the absence of a CSO. 
 

 

[stellarose]

I got vaccinated for many reasons but it was a plus for me to cruise in December with my family - worry free and mask free-  oh please don't take that away

[MrMarc]

They didn't really win.  Nether did the CDC.  It's a long decision, and I have only skimmed it, but it lays out  a framework that the CDC can impose some rules, if they meet the Judge's requirements, and he orders the parties back to mediation.  The preliminary injunction is stayed until July 12, and there is certainly going to be an appeal.  But the Judge went out of his way to legally support everything he says.  

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, Tapi said:

Speaking of sensible, THAT sounds very sensible! 😀
 

I just hope that politics can be placed aside, and that a, (once again), SENSIBLE resolution can be reached. Cruise lines can’t afford to gamble right now, which is why I feel

confident that they’ll come up with appropriate protocols, even in the absence of a CSO. 
 

 

There is risk there, we will see.  

Edited June 18, 2021 by jimbo5544

[TNcruising02]

1 minute ago, MrMarc said:

They didn't really win.  Nether did the CDC.  It's a long decision, and I have only skimmed it, but it lays out  a framework that the CDC can impose some rules, if they meet the Judge's requirements, and he orders the parties back to mediation.  The preliminary injunction is stayed until July 12, and there is certainly going to be an appeal.  But the Judge went out of his way to legally support everything he says.  

Well, the CDC has to come up with more reasonable and less restrictive rules, so that seems like a win to me.

Edited June 18, 2021 by TNcruising02

[SRQbeachgirl]

I'm only through page 44 of the ruling, but it is clear the judge believes the CDC has overstepped their authority in a "jumped the shark" kind of way.

 

 

[MrMarc]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

Well, the CDC has to come up with more reasonable and less restrictive rules, so that seems like a win to me.

My guess is that the technical rules for a conditional sailing certificate will go away, and strong, but limited rules will be put in place.  In other words, I think they will come up with a simpler set of rules that they have the science to back up, but I would imagine vaccination will play a part in it.

[TNcruising02]

5 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

My guess is that the technical rules for a conditional sailing certificate will go away, and strong, but limited rules will be put in place.  In other words, I think they will come up with a simpler set of rules that they have the science to back up, but I would imagine vaccination will play a part in it.

That is possible.  It could be that the percentage of unvaccinated can be less than 95% and that the infection rate can be more than 1.5%.  Whatever the case, this should help ease the stress on the cruise lines to walk such a tight line that could basically shut down the industry again.  I think the cruise lines want to sail safely with reasonable rules.

Edited June 18, 2021 by TNcruising02

[CruiseHealing]

Here is the link for the ruling   The conclusion starts on page 122.

 

The judge is basically saying you have to treat the cruise industry similar to airlines, trains and other modes of transportation.

 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.91.0_1.pdf

 

 

[BlerkOne]

Skimming the 124 pages, the CDC can come up with any restrictions that current data supports. The judge referred a few times to existing cruising, a lot of which is cruising in a bubble. I'd rather be on a vaccinated cruise. The CDC doesn't go away. Alaska is mentioned, but I'm not sure what happens to the Alaska cruises now.

 

CDC implies that Florida’s recent law, S.B. 2006 (Fla. 2021), prohibiting so-called “vaccine passports” might “delay cruise ships from resuming operations in Florida.” (Doc. 31 at 11; Doc. 72 at 5) Although a plaintiff’s contribution to an injury can defeat standing, S.B. 2006 fails to definitively impede ships from resuming operation. 15 MOORE’S FEDERAL PRACTICE, Civil § 101.41, 101-122.17 (2020). S.B. 2006 neither explicitly applies to federal regulation nor necessarily prohibits passengers from volunteering information about vaccination status when deciding the proportion of vaccinated and unvaccinated passengers a cruise can accommodate under federal law. (Doc. 31-4)

 

However, to further safeguard the public’s health while this action pends, CDC may propose not later than JULY 2, 2021, a narrower injunction both permitting cruise ships to sail timely and remaining within CDC’s authority as interpreted in this order.

[firefly333]

7 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

I am not in a position to make a legal opinion on whether or not the CDC and impose the rules.

 

But, I am fairly confident that if you let the cruise lines run their business as they see fit, they would require adults to be vaccinated to cruise.

 

I do not see this ruling as a win for the cruise lines.
At least not in Florida where Florida law has tied the hands of the cruise industry in the name of politics.
 

If the cruiselines are ble to set rules, they might say everyone over age 12 must be vaccinated.  But it could wind up being 90% or even 85%. Carnival has lots of kids booked.

[MrMarc]

The problem, as I see it, is that if he had ruled for the CDC, we would know what the rules were, and they were in the process of being refined.  Now nobody has any idea what's going to happen.

[firefly333]

8 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

That is possible.  It could be that the percentage of unvaccinated can be less than 95% and that the infection rate can be more than 1.5%.  Whatever the case, this should help ease the stress on the cruise lines to walk such a tight line that could basically shut down the industry again.  I think the cruise lines want to sail safely with reasonable rules.

Lol again we came ro the same conclusion ...we must think a lot alike as you say what I'm about to say. Too much common sense.

[MrMarc]

One more thing, if you read between the lines, I think the Judge is telling Florida to allow the cruise lines to ask for proof of vaccination and for the CDC to come up with a simple set of rules for the two groups.

[BlerkOne]

6 minutes ago, CruiseHealing said:

Here is the link for the ruling   The conclusion starts on page 122.

 

The judge is basically saying you have to treat the cruise industry similar to airlines, trains and other modes of transportation.

 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773/gov.uscourts.flmd.388773.91.0_1.pdf

 

 

So masks would be required at a minimum.

[MrMarc]

Here is the conclusion: CONCLUSION This order resolves Florida’s motion for a preliminary injunction. In brief, this order confirms Florida’s constitutional and statutory standing to assert the claims in the complaint. This order finds that Florida is highly likely to prevail on the merits of the claim that CDC’s conditional sailing order and the implementing orders exceed the authority delegated to CDC under Section 264(a). Alternatively, this order (1) finds that, if Section 264(a) includes the comprehensive authority claimed by CDC to promulgate and enforce regulations, Section 264(a) likely constitutes an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power to CDC because the delegation fails to convey any “intelligible principle” to guide CDC’s exercise of authority and (2) finds that the Supreme Court seems likely to impose soon a more demanding standard, which Section 264(a), as interpreted by CDC, is even more likely to fail. Case 8:21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS Document 91 Filed 06/18/21 Page 122 of 124 PageID 3523 - 123 - Additionally, this order determines that Florida is likely to prevail on at least one, but perhaps not all, of the several other claims based on the APA. Because of (1) Florida’s probability of success on the merits, (2) the imminent threat of irreparable injury to Florida, (3) the comparative injury depending on whether an injunction issues, and (4) the imminent and material threat to the public interest, Florida’s motion for preliminary injunction is GRANTED, and CDC is PRELIMINARILY ENJOINED from enforcing against a cruise ship arriving in, within, or departing from a port in Florida the conditional sailing order and the later measures (technical guidelines, manuals, and the like). However, the preliminary injunction is STAYED until 12:01 a.m. EDT on JULY 18, 2021, at which time the conditional sailing order and the measures promulgated under the conditional sailing order will persist as only a non-binding “consideration,” “recommendation” or “guideline,” the same tools used by CDC when addressing the practices in other similarly situated industries, such as airlines, railroads, hotels, casinos, sports venues, buses, subways, and others. (Docs. 45-4; 45-5;45-6; 46-4) However, to further safeguard the public’s health while this action pends, CDC may propose not later than JULY 2, 2021, a narrower injunction both permitting cruise ships to sail timely and remaining within CDC’s authority as interpreted in this order. The motion for the proposed injunction must support the proposed terms with current scientific evidence and fully disclose — if unavailable to the public — scientific evidence, including methodology, raw data, analysis, and the like and the names and qualifications of the scientists participating in the study, Case 8:21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS Document 91 Filed 06/18/21 Page 123 of 124 PageID 3524 - 124 - modeling, or the like. If CDC moves under this paragraph, Florida must respond within seven days. A hearing will occur immediately after Florida’s response. Additionally, if circumstances materially change at any time, either party can request a hearing to modify this injunction, a hearing will occur immediately (within twentyfour hours, if necessary), and an order resolving the motion will issue immediately. The parties are ordered to return to mediation before Magistrate Judge Anthony Porcelli at a time and place ordered by Judge Porcelli and in accord with the terms (including confidentiality) of the earlier mediation order (Doc. 51). ORDERED in Tampa, Florida, on June 18, 2021.

[TNcruising02]

7 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Lol again we came ro the same conclusion ...we must think a lot alike as you say what I'm about to say. Too much common sense.

LOL.  Right!  Maybe someday we will end up on the same cruise!

[bluesman0711]

STAYED until 12:01 a.m. EDT on JULY 18, 2021, at which time the conditional sailing order and the measures promulgated under the conditional sailing order will persist as only a non-binding “consideration,” “recommendation” or “guideline,” the same tools used by CDC when addressing the practices in other similarly situated industries, such as airlines, railroads, hotels, casinos, sports venues, buses, subways, and others.

 

Nice to see common sense prevail.

[caniuseit]

9 minutes ago, Tapi said:

I humbly believe that an executive order would open an unnecessary can of worms. I believe that, at this point in time, the cruise industry can rectify itself without further intervention from the federal government. 

I agree.  But I would add State government to "without further intervention"

[LadyMac72]

2 minutes ago, bluesman0711 said:

STAYED until 12:01 a.m. EDT on JULY 18, 2021, at which time the conditional sailing order and the measures promulgated under the conditional sailing order will persist as only a non-binding “consideration,” “recommendation” or “guideline,” the same tools used by CDC when addressing the practices in other similarly situated industries, such as airlines, railroads, hotels, casinos, sports venues, buses, subways, and others.

 

Nice to see common sense prevail.

So will everything up until July 18 now be cancelled?

[scendro]

I really don’t think this changes anything for Carnival’s July and August cruises, they will go forward with what they’ve announced - everyone must be vaxxed except a small amount that apply for and get approved exemptions- of which will be required to be masked while on the ship.  I don’t see Carnival doing a 180 

[Tapi]

2 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

I agree.  But I would add State government to "without further intervention"

That’s fair. 😀

[BlerkOne]

So I don't see any impact to cruises before July 18th and maybe not then.

[Cruise Related]

2 minutes ago, bluesman0711 said:

STAYED until 12:01 a.m. EDT on JULY 18, 2021, at which time the conditional sailing order and the measures promulgated under the conditional sailing order will persist as only a non-binding “consideration,” “recommendation” or “guideline,” the same tools used by CDC when addressing the practices in other similarly situated industries, such as airlines, railroads, hotels, casinos, sports venues, buses, subways, and others.

 

Nice to see common sense prevail.

Funny enough, I sail on the 18th on the Horizon. Quite interested in seeing the impacts this will have on my sailing. 

[jfunk138]

28 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Well, the CDC has to come up with more reasonable and less restrictive rules, so that seems like a win to me.

Reasonable, I suspect, will be the same as the rules for arrival in the US by air: recent test and that's it.

 

I think its clear that mandating what people wear on their face in international waters is outside the scope of the CDC's Constitutional authority.  Manadating what people do while abroad is crazy.  People can engage in far higher risk activities and fly back to US with just a test.

 

I don't follow why people think the CDC will appeal.   They can just say: "sorry not our problem, judge says so".  If there are issues on cruises, its the judges fault, not the CDC.