Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids

[MrMarc]

3 minutes ago, bdever said:

Can someone with legal expertise advise on my understanding - The CDC has 30 days to come up with less restrictions for Florida cruises correct? In theory the CDC, DOT, Cruise lines and other states ALREADY in agreements (Alaska, Texas, Seattle, California) can proceed under the current guidelines?

In my opinion, if the Court rules on the powers of the CDC, it would affect them in every state,  If the CDC and Florida can reach an agreement in mediation, it would only affect Florida, but would likely be adopted by other states.

[bdever]

3 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I agree with you up until that last part.  I predict the majority of people will be unhappy.  I say that because I see no way for a cruise ship to have a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated and not require masks and distancing.  The other solutions create a two tier system that the unvaccinated won't like, and the people that want 100% vaccinated cruises won't either.  But I hope you are correct and I am wrong.

Perfectly stated MrMarc, well said

[TNcruising02]

1 minute ago, MrMarc said:

I agree with you up until that last part.  I predict the majority of people will be unhappy.  I say that because I see no way for a cruise ship to have a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated and not require masks and distancing.  The other solutions create a two tier system that the unvaccinated won't like, and the people that want 100% vaccinated cruises won't either.  But I hope you are correct and I am wrong.

I think that the CDC may come back and exclude children from the 5% and maybe increase the percentage of positive cases allowed before a cruise line is shut down.  You could have 1.5% of people who test positive, but have no symptoms.  That should not shut down the cruise.  As long as a cruise line can safely quarantine positive cases and has a plan in place to deal with the unlikely event that someone goes from testing negative to needing medical assistance, then everything should be fine.  

We are beyond the point where a positive case should shut down the industry.  There aren't going to be tons of people who need to be hospitalized on a 7 day cruise.  Anyway, I hope the CDC is quick to respond to something both sides can agree on.

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, Jasonsterling said:

I'm happy enough with this- I have thought the CDC was overstepping it's bounds to too great an extent in the face of the entire rest of the country opening up. I think cruise lines should be mindful of COVID and should continue the measure they were putting into place last March before the shut BUT even more so passengers need to be mindful of themselves and if, like me, you are concerned about catching COVID get the vaccine and wash your hands and practice good overall cleanliness. I booked a great deal on a cruise in August just this morning and can not wait to sail the Breeze out of Galveston in a few weeks! 

Well said.  If they had maintained an even keel, ww would be in a different place right now. 

[caniuseit]

8 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

dont have kids, but I do think the cruiselines are capable of deciding how to sail safe. They know how much is on the line, and its in their interests to sail safe. Perhaps vaccinated except for young kids, but kids can board. Probably too late for july and august, maybe some common sense to sept and oct. More kids allowed.. note the title is kids allowed to sail .. this is about the kids. 

Yet, current rules in Florida don’t allow for what you think is reasonable. Where is the “common sense” of forbidding a cruise line from mandating vaccines for adults

 

do you sincerely believe that on a ship with 5000 passengers with 2500 unvaccinated that there will not be an outbreak?

 

Here’s a compromise 

 

get all govt out of the way and let the cruise line run their business

[MrMarc]

Just now, firefly333 said:

Maybe the next pandemic the cdc shouldn't ONLY be in charge of cruises... which is why some of us think this wasnt fair by the cdc. Makes no sense they control ONE industry and have no real control elsewhere.

 

Next pandemic this needs to be rethought. 

They had power elsewhere, but treated cruise ships differently.  I happen to be mostly on the CDC's side on this.  But if the Court limits their power, then there are a lot of other implications, or as I call them, unintended consequences.  Most of us in these threads are only looking at how it affects the cruise industry, but if the Court actually has to rule on the issue, it may affect a lot of other things.

[skrufy]

Let’s all calm down and let the cruiselines3 who sail out of Florida do the responsible thing. I think they will, if they don’t the industry will be shut down again. 

[naxer]

I guess they're ordering in at the Mothership tonight.  Or throwing up their hands and heading to a bar.

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

2 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Next pandemic this needs to be rethought

The next pandemic era (at least of this scale) I want no part of.  Hopefully we have another 103 years to prepare or (more likely) not.

[PointNemo]

23 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I predict that, even though a bunch of people are happy right now, that giving this power to the Courts is going to end up being a bad thing for everyone.  Even now, the Judge is basically telling the CDC how to make rules, and he is going to decide if they are correct or not.

And a judge is not an epidemiologist. Very bad form and precedent in my opinion.

Edited June 18, 2021 by PointNemo

[TNcruising02]

6 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Maybe the next pandemic the cdc shouldn't ONLY be in charge of cruises... which is why some of us think this wasnt fair by the cdc. Makes no sense they control ONE industry and have no real control elsewhere.

 

Next pandemic this needs to be rethought. 

They didn't control modes of transportation equally.  Like I have been saying, you can have covid and sit around the airport for hours, sit within inches of a stranger, ride in a bus, and take a subway, and the CDC was fine with it.  No testing required.  No vaccinations required.  Just put on a flimsy mask.  But for the cruise industry, they took out the hammer.  Shut them down and didn't give them a chance to operate safely and at a reduced capacity.  They lost billions.  Anyway,  just when I accepted the CDC's crazy restrictions, this happens. 

[fatcat04]

Just now, PointNemo said:

And a judge is not an epidemiologist. Very bad form and precedent and my opinion.

Read the ruling. The judge requested the CDCs data concerning their reasoning for all the restrictions in the CSO and obviously what they gave him wasn't adequate to keep an entire industry shut down while the rest of the nation is open. He may not be an epidemiologist but he did a pretty bang up job in pointing out the complete inconsistencies in the CDCs CSO and he is backed up by real data. 

[balcony bound]

5 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

 The other solutions create a two tier system that the unvaccinated won't like, and the people that want 100% vaccinated cruises won't either.  But I hope you are correct and I am wrong.

Not sure why you have limited solutions, we've all been surprised weekly with new ideas and solutions.

 

We are all united in wanting cruising back.  Progress is being made daily to get us there.

 

 

[firefly333]

4 minutes ago, bdever said:

Karma isn’t done yet my dear. She doesn’t play favorites and doesn’t take sides. She is attracted to the biggest gloaters that’s all.

If the shoe fits wear it. You beat up on me plenty. .. we dont have to agree.

 

It was unjust and unfair for the CDC to have a chokehold on only the cruise industry. Florida argued this, that cruises should be treated like airlines, disney world .. cant just place restrictions unilaterally without doing it to other similar travel industries. 

 

My law background says this was unjust and unfair as florida argued. The new restrictions have to be in with other similar businesses. Treating cruisers equal. ..ie you cant pick on just one kid. You have to treat all kids the same. Equally. What I've been saying. You want unequal treatment, i get it. You might win, but I want equal treatment. Agree it's one step, but it's a good one. 

 

I'm vaccinated.. I plan to be as safe as possible, but cruises need to be equal to flying or disney world for 3 days, etc. I know you dont see it the same. I'm old, i grew up as a flower child of 70s for equality. I marched for equality and believe we should all be treated the same in the eyes of the law.

 

[jsglow]

I'm not reading all the comments.  But the CDC just got their you know whats totally cut off.

[bdever]

Just now, TNcruising02 said:

They didn't control modes of transportation equally.  Like I have been saying, you can have covid and sit around the airport for hours, sit within inches of a stranger, ride in a bus, and take a subway, and the CDC was fine with it.  No testing required.  No vaccinations required.  Just put on a flimsy mask.  But for the cruise industry, they took out the hammer.  Shut them down and didn't give them a chance to operate safely and at a reduced capacity.  They lost billions.  Anyway,  just when I accepted the CDC's crazy restrictions, this happens. 

TNcruising02, the problem becomes the problem when all of the non-socially distanced, non-vaccinated strangers exit the buses, airports, trains, terminals, and plans to board the same cruise ships unfortunately.

[MrMarc]

6 minutes ago, PointNemo said:

And a judge is not an epidemiologist. Very bad form and precedent in my opinion.

Exactly.  He has given himself that power because as a Federal Judge, once the question is before him, he can.

[firefly333]

3 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

They didn't control modes of transportation equally.  

You get it again!!  Which was the basis of floridas suit.

[caniuseit]

8 minutes ago, skrufy said:

Let’s all calm down and let the cruiselines3 who sail out of Florida do the responsible thing. I think they will, if they don’t the industry will be shut down again. 

Uh, the cruise lines hands have been tied in Florida.  They are forbidden to mandate ANY vaccines. That is the responsible thing. 

[TNcruising02]

3 minutes ago, bdever said:

TNcruising02, the problem becomes the problem when all of the non-socially distanced, non-vaccinated strangers exit the buses, airports, trains, terminals, and plans to board the same cruise ships unfortunately.

I actually think the majority of cruisers are vaccinated or have already had covid.  RCL estimated 90% vaccinated. That doesn't even include the people who have had covid and are not vaccinated. So, say 95% are immune.  I think the majority of unvaccinated will be children not high risk adults.  I believe the perceived threat isn't going to be anything like what happens.

Edited June 18, 2021 by TNcruising02

[MrMarc]

7 minutes ago, balcony bound said:

Not sure why you have limited solutions, we've all been surprised weekly with new ideas and solutions.

 

We are all united in wanting cruising back.  Progress is being made daily to get us there.

 

 

Well the only other possible situation would be vaccinated and unvaccinated cruises.  I am limiting it to these because they are the only physically possible options I can think of.  But again, I am just 1 person, hopefully I am wrong and they will figure something else out.

[caniuseit]

4 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

You get it again!!  Which was the basis of floridas suit.

So, let me see if I understand

 

A 20 minute taxi or Uber ride with 3 people should be treated like a 4 hour plane ride with 300 people. Thats  not different than a ship with 5000 people together for 7 days?
 

did you forget what happened last year when there was an outbreak on a cruise ship?  The ship OWNED those passengers until they could get them off the boat?

 

sorry, but wanting to treat them the same is ludicrous 

 

[SRQbeachgirl]

15 minutes ago, PointNemo said:

And a judge is not an epidemiologist. Very bad form and precedent in my opinion.

 

Neither was the CDC's expert, who did a lousy job from everything I'm reading. The CDC provided no analytical justification for the 95% vaccination requirement or the 1.5% "outbreak threshold." The judge said if they can't back it up with data, then the measures are arbitrary and capricious. He told them if they are going to respond to his order, they better do it with data and methodology, rather than hand-waving and platitudes of "trust us, we're the experts." 

[caniuseit]

4 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

Well the only other possible situation would be vaccinated and unvaccinated cruises.  I am limiting it to these because they are the only physically possible options I can think of.  But again, I am just 1 person, hopefully I am wrong and they will figure something else out.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. 
 

im all for that

 

who here would sign up for the unvaccinated cruise? Be honest

[balcony bound]

2 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

did you forget what happened last year when there was an outbreak on a cruise ship?  The ship OWNED those passengers until they could get them off the boat?

 

sorry, but wanting to treat them the same is ludicrous 

 

That was during a time no one had a clue what to do, how to treat, what exactly we were dealing with.  Things have changed.