"Always included" - false advertising?

[DenGNNJ]

52 minutes ago, dazey said:

After all this discussion I am wondering why I am not checking out Oceania.  Is it better quality for same pricing? Now I must spend hours finding out what I do not know!

 

 

I'll save you some time ...  Don't take Oceania's OLife's OBC option because the additional cost to you is equal to OBC you'll receive on your shipboard account (no savings there).  OH! ... the standard drinks package is beer & wine at lunch & dinner only ... want cocktails?, you'll have to wait for a cocktail party where they're included, pay ala carte, or pay an additional $20 per day per person for their upgraded package.  Gratuities aren't included in the fare either - you'll have to factor that into the cost as well.  And, the shore excursions that are included with OLife have limitations attached to them too.

 

Celebrity, Oceania, Viking, & Azamara are all on our cruise list ... we're very good at making comparisons between them all.

Edited October 1, 2021 by DenGNNJ

[the penguins]

29 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

Yes, oLife air is terrible. Oceania regulars already know that.

 

On Celebrity website, there are many sailings that give prices for different categories, but when you start booking, for some of the categories prices are for for Simply Sail only. Yes, it could be for some categories, not all of them, but this is still misleading. You assume that Always included is the base rate, and this is what their advertising implies - but for some sailings and some categories this is just not the case.

AI is now the standard rate on almost all Celebrity cruises. Celebrity has withdrawn all the net rates (prices without drinks, tips and WiFi) that Travel Agents used to use to build thier own packages. On the few cruises that still have Simply Sail prices they are always for guarantee cabins only and usually only available fairly near to the sailing date. A number of passengers have claimed on other posts that their Agents still have access to these net rates but on being challenged not one has come up with a single specific cabin that can be booked without AI. If there was an Agent which could provide this service they would be advertising it heavily as they would make a lot of money. Please prove me wrong as we would love to be able to book the cabin of our choice on the cruise of our choice without paying for drinks that we can't take and WiFi which we don't want.

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

 

Obviously nobody will stop sailing on a cruise line because of the way they advertise.. in the same way I will not stop sailing on Oceania because their handling of the air.

 

As for "wonderful product" - I wouldn't go that far.. Oceania and Crystal offer a wonderful product, Celebrity offers a decent product at best. I enjoyed sailing on both and I will in the future if the itinerary is right. Just don't expect a Honda to be a Mercedes..

Mercedes suck, I'll drive my Honda, which I love, any day of the week

Edited October 1, 2021 by LGW59

[graphicguy]

Now we're at the crux of the OP's issue.  S/He likes Oceania, but considers Celebrity a less desirable cruise experience.

 

So, it's really not about Celebrity's nomenclature.  It's an opinion about one's preference of cruise experiences.

 

Hey...not sure why you came to the Celebrity threads to disavow our own positive experiences with them.  

 

I think you'd garner more like minded folks (maybe) in the Oceania threads, though.

[canderson]

2 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

Yes, we have options to cruise on Royal C. for half the price of X.

I'm curious to know if you have any X cruises booked.  We've seen the comment above or similar in a couple of dozen different threads, so I think you can assume that we 'get it' now.

[Spif Barwunkel]

"Always Included" (AI) means you are not "Always Excluded" (AE) from anything that you want to be Included In (II). When eating and drinking, you are Always Included with others who are eating and drinking. When texting or talking, you are Always Included with others who are texting and talking. When tipping, you are Always Included with others who are tipping. In each of these cases, you may be Always Excluded if no one else is doing what you are doing at that time, unless of course you want someone to be Included In what you are doing when you are doing it, so you wait. Now, if you do not wish to be Always Included you can request to be Always Excluded, with the exception of those things you wish to be Included In. Should your request be honored, you will be Always Included In (AII) those things that are not at all associated with Always Excluded. Sea days may be an exception on the port side of the ship. Hope that clears things up, once and for all.

 

Spif Barwunkel - AI, AE, II, AII, DMV, DDS, HBO, TLC, PTA, MBA  

Edited October 2, 2021 by Spif Barwunkel

[ak1004]

3 hours ago, DenGNNJ said:

I'll save you some time ...  Don't take Oceania's OLife's OBC option because the additional cost to you is equal to OBC you'll receive on your shipboard account (no savings there).  OH! ... the standard drinks package is beer & wine at lunch & dinner only ... want cocktails?, you'll have to wait for a cocktail party where they're included, pay ala carte, or pay an additional $20 per day per person for their upgraded package.  Gratuities aren't included in the fare either - you'll have to factor that into the cost as well.  And, the shore excursions that are included with OLife have limitations attached to them too.

 

Celebrity, Oceania, Viking, & Azamara are all on our cruise list ... we're very good at making comparisons between them all.

 

I agree with all your points. The only exception is the excursions - in oLife they are priced at $100 each, but you are allowed to take excursions priced up to $200 as part of oLife, so it's 50% discount basically.

 

Now, to compare the prices, here is just one example (maybe not very representative, but still) 

 

We are booked on Oceania cruise from Miami in December, going to Panama Canal and Central America. 18 nights is priced $5,650 CAD in veranda cabin.

 

The closest I could find with Celebrity is this one on the Millennium. Not exactly the same itinerary, but pretty close. It's 15 nights, and the price for veranda is $6,250 CAD.

 

So with Celebrity you are paying $600 CAD more for a cruise that is 3 nights shorter, on a ship that is double the age compared to Oceania Marina, in a 170 sqft cabin compared to 240 sqft on the Marina.

 

Now you tell me which sailing provides a better value..

[Seany527]

5 hours ago, ak1004 said:

Well, as someone who was driving 4 different Mercedes cars and SUVs and having both Honda and Mercedes in our household, I would strongly disagree.  

Seriously? Unless you’re pushing a G wagon, an average Joe can drive a Mercedes if they wanted to. 
 

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading you rage out about “always included”. Thank you. 

[ak1004]

3 minutes ago, Seany527 said:

Seriously? Unless you’re pushing a G wagon, an average Joe can drive a Mercedes if they wanted to. 
 

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading you rage out about “always included”. Thank you. 

I responded to a comment that Honda is more reliable than a Mercedes, so not sure what is has to do with an average Joe can drive a Mercedes.

 

And I still believe that comparing Celebrity to Oceania is like comparing Honda to Mercedes. Both can take you from A to B, but the experience is completely different.

[Bo1953]

5 hours ago, the penguins said:

AI is now the standard rate on almost all Celebrity cruises. Celebrity has withdrawn all the net rates (prices without drinks, tips and WiFi) that Travel Agents used to use to build thier own packages. On the few cruises that still have Simply Sail prices they are always for guarantee cabins only and usually only available fairly near to the sailing date. A number of passengers have claimed on other posts that their Agents still have access to these net rates but on being challenged not one has come up with a single specific cabin that can be booked without AI. If there was an Agent which could provide this service they would be advertising it heavily as they would make a lot of money. Please prove me wrong as we would love to be able to book the cabin of our choice on the cruise of our choice without paying for drinks that we can't take and WiFi which we don't want.

Just in case you do not realize, NO TA info can be exchanged here, yet AND I would presume any agent who has access to 'net rates' will be able to get them for any selected cabin, generally.

 

bon voyage

[hiccups]

6 hours ago, dazey said:

After all this discussion I am wondering why I am not checking out Oceania.  Is it better quality for same pricing? Now I must spend hours finding out what I do not know!

 

 

We sailed on Oceania a few years ago and enjoyed it--we got a great price on that cruise.  I've checked out their pricing since that time and haven't found anything remotely competitive to X for their Caribbean cruises.

Checking tonight, a 10-night Caribbean cruise on Oceania departing on 12/3, the cruise-only price for the lowest balcony category is $2299 (the category is waitlisted).  A 10-night cruise on X, also departing 12/3, has a veranda guarantee (nothing included) from $1407, or "Always Included" from $1727.  More is included in Oceania's cruise-only price (non-alcoholic beverages, specialty dining), but for us, X is a better deal.

We liked Oceania and I'll keep checking the prices, but because we're price-motivated, lately X has been winning our business.  We like the Always Included option.

Edited October 2, 2021 by hiccups

[happy cruzer]

Oceania's marketing brochures also state that you can dine whenever and wherever you want but in fact you are only "entitled" to a specific number of specialty restaurant visits depending on your room category.  Also reservations open up based on room category.  To get more specialty visits or change a reservation time you have to negotiate/beg someone onboard.  Point being there is ALWAYS something special to know about a product. 😉

[Stockjock]

6 hours ago, the penguins said:

AI is now the standard rate on almost all Celebrity cruises. Celebrity has withdrawn all the net rates (prices without drinks, tips and WiFi) that Travel Agents used to use to build thier own packages. On the few cruises that still have Simply Sail prices they are always for guarantee cabins only and usually only available fairly near to the sailing date. A number of passengers have claimed on other posts that their Agents still have access to these net rates but on being challenged not one has come up with a single specific cabin that can be booked without AI. If there was an Agent which could provide this service they would be advertising it heavily as they would make a lot of money. Please prove me wrong as we would love to be able to book the cabin of our choice on the cruise of our choice without paying for drinks that we can't take and WiFi which we don't want.

One of the really big travel agencies still has non AI rates available, well in advance of the sailing.  I booked one months ago to Alaska and while the prices have gone up a touch on my sailing, I see that they are available on many sailings.

[the penguins]

3 hours ago, Bo1953 said:

Just in case you do not realize, NO TA info can be exchanged here, yet AND I would presume any agent who has access to 'net rates' will be able to get them for any selected cabin, generally.

 

bon voyage

Ok you can't exchange Travel Agent details but you, or anyone else can quote prices which is/was my challenge. Take any Celebrity Transatlantic cruise. Pick a specific balcony cabin. Now get a price for that specific cabin with and without AI. To be clear that's not a guarantee cabin. Celebrity cannot find me one travel agent has this type of deal any more on any cruise - they have tried. I repeat if any agent has that deal they would be shouting it from the rooftops. 

[4774Papa]

10 hours ago, canderson said:

I'm curious to know if you have any X cruises booked.  We've seen the comment above or similar in a couple of dozen different threads, so I think you can assume that we 'get it' now.

We had a TA from Rome to Florida booked for this month, but it was cancelled.   Right now we have no X cruises booked.  OK, you get it, but does X?

[Bo1953]

4 hours ago, the penguins said:

Ok you can't exchange Travel Agent details but you, or anyone else can quote prices which is/was my challenge. Take any Celebrity Transatlantic cruise. Pick a specific balcony cabin. Now get a price for that specific cabin with and without AI. To be clear that's not a guarantee cabin. Celebrity cannot find me one travel agent has this type of deal any more on any cruise - they have tried. I repeat if any agent has that deal they would be shouting it from the rooftops. 

Okay, were I to publicly state that I received a balcony TA for $75/day what good would that do for you, except to continue to question as to where I got this price? It would never end, IMO. You need to consider doing your own research and calling each potential fine to determine it the agent/agency fits your requirements. After all that is what most of us have done, even by trial and error.

 

It is no secret that a few of us Yanks enjoy being braggarts and that is fine, to be sure, yet here on CC to violate a long held sacred TOS is not a reason for us to get banned for intentionally violating same.

 

At any rate I see that you are in the UK and many of of these agents do not deal with passengers who do not live in the U.S.

 

To be clearer, my TA offers net rates, yet I always take rates which include Perks and now AI as their rates are quite a bit less than what appears on X's website. And I get to choose my cabin, at that and wait list at times when the cabin I want is not available.

 

If you want to know who they are, I will tell you (or anyone else) on our next sailing in May aboard The Summit.

 

Net, net there may be no response satisfactory for you in this situation.

 

bon voyage

 

edited to add: Just checked with my TA, they do not deal with non-US residents as clients for US based cruise lines.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Bo1953

[DenGNNJ]

10 hours ago, ak1004 said:

 

I agree with all your points. The only exception is the excursions - in oLife they are priced at $100 each, but you are allowed to take excursions priced up to $200 as part of oLife, so it's 50% discount basically.

 

Now, to compare the prices, here is just one example (maybe not very representative, but still) 

 

We are booked on Oceania cruise from Miami in December, going to Panama Canal and Central America. 18 nights is priced $5,650 CAD in veranda cabin.

 

The closest I could find with Celebrity is this one on the Millennium. Not exactly the same itinerary, but pretty close. It's 15 nights, and the price for veranda is $6,250 CAD.

 

So with Celebrity you are paying $600 CAD more for a cruise that is 3 nights shorter, on a ship that is double the age compared to Oceania Marina, in a 170 sqft cabin compared to 240 sqft on the Marina.

 

Now you tell me which sailing provides a better value..

Great that you found a sailing where your preferred cruise line turned out to be the better value for you.  Value is precisely the reason why our 2022 Alaska Cruise will be on Celebrity, our 2023 Australia / New Zealand cruise will be on Azamara, and our next sailing out of NY to Bermuda will be on Oceania. 

 

For every example given where Oceania comes out on top, there's an example where it does not ... for instance... the cruise we're currently looking at puts Celebrity & Viking on top, and Azamara & Oceania on the bottom.  But cost and value is not what this thread is about. 

 

Not for nothing, of all the cruise lines to pick to bolster an argument against Celebrity for deceptive advertising regarding fares, Oceania is probably the worst.  IMHO the MOST shady thing ever in cruise advertising from ANY brand is Oceania's OLife OBC "perk" option.  "You pay $400 extra and we'll give you $400 in OBC" for example, is not stated on their advertising, but it sure is what happens every time that so-called "perk" is selected.  It's impossible to figure this out by simply looking at their advertised fares, or if you don't dissect and analyze the numbers during the booking process.  I've even seen well respected & knowledgeable vloggers on YouTube say this is the best perk to pick (best for Oceania, not the consumer).

 

In terms of transparency, there's OLife fares that include airfare & a perk (the ones you see online), and OLife fares with AIRFARE ONLY & OLife fares with a PERK ONLY (these are the  ones you DON'T see online).  The OLife program as a whole is so convoluted, I literally needed to create a spreadsheet to make the process of number crunching to pick the best OLife perk option and make cruise line to cruise line comparisons easier.  Are they falsely advertising? ... no & neither is Celebrity.  As a matter of fact, I'd say Celebrity's "Always Included" program to be one of the most transparent out there.

 

For me, I believe the question of "false advertising" has been answered... it's a NO.  But when it comes to cruise fares... ANY cruise fares, not just Celebrity, Oceania, Azamara or whatever the best plan of action is Caveat Emptor.

Edited October 2, 2021 by DenGNNJ

[the penguins]

26 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

Okay, were I to publicly state that I received a balcony TA for $75/day what good would that do for you, except to continue to question as to where I got this price? It would never end, IMO. You need to consider doing your own research and calling each potential fine to determine it the agent/agency fits your requirements. After all that is what most of us have done, even by trial and error.

 

It is no secret that a few of us Yanks enjoy being braggarts and that is fine, to be sure, yet here on CC to violate a long held sacred TOS is not a reason for us to get banned for intentionally violating same.

 

At any rate I see that you are in the UK and many of of these agents do not deal with passengers who do not live in the U.S.

 

To be clearer, my TA offers net rates, yet I always take rates which include Perks and now AI as their rates are quite a bit less than what appears on X's website. And I get to choose my cabin, at that and wait list at times when the cabin I want is not available.

 

If you want to know who they are, I will tell you (or anyone else) on our next sailing in May aboard The Summit.

 

Net, net there may be no response satisfactory for you in this situation.

 

bon voyage

 

edited to add: Just checked with my TA, they do not deal with non-US residents as clients for US based cruise lines.

Thanks, you have clearly confirmed my point.

Your agent has net rates that include AI, they do not have net rates without AI because if they did you would have said your Agent offers both.

My son is a US citizen and our next 2 cruises ( Celebrity and Royal) are both booked at US rates.

My point is one of choice, Celebrity has removed our choice, all the other examples quoted still allow you a choice.

Yes we can simply dump Celebrity and we have cancelled one cruise.

In the meantime we live in hope that we will again be able to book our preferred cruise line without having to pay for drinks that we can't have ( medical reasons  ) wifi that we won't use.

[ExArkie]

11 hours ago, ak1004 said:

 

I agree with all your points. The only exception is the excursions - in oLife they are priced at $100 each, but you are allowed to take excursions priced up to $200 as part of oLife, so it's 50% discount basically.

 

Now, to compare the prices, here is just one example (maybe not very representative, but still) 

 

We are booked on Oceania cruise from Miami in December, going to Panama Canal and Central America. 18 nights is priced $5,650 CAD in veranda cabin.

 

The closest I could find with Celebrity is this one on the Millennium. Not exactly the same itinerary, but pretty close. It's 15 nights, and the price for veranda is $6,250 CAD.

 

So with Celebrity you are paying $600 CAD more for a cruise that is 3 nights shorter, on a ship that is double the age compared to Oceania Marina, in a 170 sqft cabin compared to 240 sqft on the Marina.

 

Now you tell me which sailing provides a better value..

I was going to point out that, if the Celebrity fare is the AI rate, you get gratuities and a better drink package than on Oceania, which ought to be factored into the equation. Clicking on the link provided, the current balcony price was listed at C$5,767, which made the price difference C$117, or roughly the same price for three fewer nights on Celebrity. Makes it a closer call.

 

By the way, I still couldn’t tell for certain if that Celebrity price was AI. Don’t think anyone is defending Celebrity’s Web site as being superior to anything.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by ExArkie
Corrected error

[Bo1953]

4 minutes ago, the penguins said:

Thanks, you have clearly confirmed my point.

Your agent has net rates that include AI, they do not have net rates without AI because if they did you would have said your Agent offers both.

My son is a US citizen and our next 2 cruises ( Celebrity and Royal) are both booked at US rates.

My point is one of choice, Celebrity has removed our choice, all the other examples quoted still allow you a choice.

Yes we can simply dump Celebrity and we have cancelled one cruise.

In the meantime we live in hope that we will again be able to book our preferred cruise line without having to pay for drinks that we can't have ( medical reasons  ) wifi that we won't use.

What I confirmed is, my TA has both rates and I always select AI as it is worth the added value which is less than the rate which X offers online, as well as some of the other 'big box' stores which many of us use.

 

Yes, I have the choice to purchase a 'non-inclusive' Perk sailing or 'fully inclusive' rate, for us it is better to have a fully inclusive rate as most of the items we will purchase them as a matter of course.

 

We are fortunate to be able to purchase our sailings for what we consider 'great prices' plus buying any and all Perks we want, in addition...

 

If you are indicating that you can purchase X sailings at U.S. rates, because you have family based in the U.S. AND if the TA will accept the reservations 'for' non-U.S. residents, go for it as many others who are not U.S. residents have and continue to do.

 

You do have choice, just have to research on how to have it the way we do in the U.S.

 

bon voyage

[PTC DAWG]

15 hours ago, ak1004 said:

Well, as someone who was driving 4 different Mercedes cars and SUVs and having both Honda and Mercedes in our household, I would strongly disagree.  

LOL…Nice humble brag…

[PTC DAWG]

15 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

Yes, we have options to cruise on Royal C. for half the price of X.

I just sailed the Allure, in no way is it half the price…

[mayleeman]

OP is complaining that X fares are false advertising yet was obviously not confused by them. Just griping that some unknown "someone" could be confused, with heaven knows what PTSD that might create.

 

Case dismissed!

[mayleeman]

2 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

LOL…Nice humble brag…

 

I came to age driving a Rambler. 

 

To quote the sage Walter Brennan: No brag, just fact.

[TeeRick]

OP thanks for starting another thread on Always Included.  It was getting boring not seeing one in a few days.  Popular choice.  Now 100 posts and counting.