Two dogs in a stroller on Sillouette

[NLH Arizona]

There is a woman named Roz who posted on a past thread here who seems extremely well versed in the laws about service dogs. She apparently has a service dog and has traveled quite a bit with him including many cruises and posts on other threads here on Cruise Critic.

 

Here is a link to a post she made on a recent thread in this forum where she discusses some of the differences between service dogs, emotional support dogs (which apparently have different legal descriptions) and some of the differences in their owner's rights - including rights in dining areas:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=44245413

Also, the ADA does not recognize a emotional support or comfort dog as a service dog, thus they don't fall under their laws. Too bad most businesses are afraid of being sued and don't challenge these posers.

 

From the ADA: Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

Edited January 8, 2015 by NLH Arizona

[vulcan1971]

Why punish the dogs? The owner needs to swim home.

 

In the sense of "true service", they can swim home together. ;)

Edited January 8, 2015 by vulcan1971

[upwarduk]

We were on a Eclipse Southern Caribbean cruise in March 2013.

A white poodle type dog which was pushed in a stroller was seen to relieve itself on the grass. Also in the indoor pool area.

I didn't witness this, but did see it in Select dining and barking in the theatre.

[Sapphire723]

I'm going to guess that the true number of people needing "emotional support" is pretty low - and the fakers and liars just ruin it for true service dogs and their owners. We can all do something and that is not only refuse to sit at a table with these people and their pets, refuse to sit next to them at any venue and also to complain to Celebrity.

Just another "life is all about what I want" scam. Now to set back and watch all the P.C. Police cry about how unfair we are being to those with emotional problems. Ugh. Sorry but if your emotional problems are THAT bad - home is probably where you need to be. I have no problem with true service dogs - but you won't see those riding in a stroller, leaving a pile, or sitting any place in the dining room but under the table.

 

It's nice that you feel that you can accurately determine who is faking and who has a true need 100% of the time without viewing someone's medical records and consulting with their doctor. I've tried to move away from assuming things about people I don't know, because sometimes when I have more information, I end up feeling like a complete jerk.

 

On the off chance that not every single one of these emotional support dog bringers are liars, I'm not willing to shun and shame someone who has an actual need. I'm also not willing to go out on a limb and say they don't deserve a relaxing cruise vacation. Maybe that person deserves it more than I do.

 

I am sure the cruiselines do get the occasional faker who just wants to bring Fido with them, and I think any support dog should be well controlled in public (though that is a requirement even for a sham certificate). To take advantage of this is disgusting in my opinion, and I think it makes it harder for those with legit issues. My wish is that these people would stop their dishonesty. I'm just not confident that I can diagnose and prescribe treatment for a complete stranger based on assumptions alone... and without a proper medical license.

[4774Papa]

Also, the ADA does not recognize a emotional support or comfort dog as a service dog, thus they don't fall under their laws. Too bad most businesses are afraid of being sued and don't challenge these posers.

 

From the ADA: Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

I was an attorney for the military and defended the Navy and MC from many spurious civil rights cases. In three years, I won all my cases. I had perhaps one that deserved modest compensation that we settled. The system encourages people trying to tap into that magical ATM.

 

It is very expensive to defend these cases as the system does not lend itself to easy dismissal.

 

As far as having pet on a cruise, DW commented that for what we pay to have our cat housed by the vet, we could buy a cabin for our kitty. However, the idea of litter boxes in a cabin are too much.

 

I have to wonder, where these dogs take care of business!

[Algebralovr]

The crazy thing is that there is a lot of paperwork required to take a SD on a cruise ship!

 

Plus, it is not required to register a SD or have them pass any kind of test (officially) for public access.

 

I will also note that ESAs (emotional support animals) are not restricted to dogs, and under HUD rules are allowed in housing that doesn't allow pets. Excuse me, an ESA is a fancy term for a pet in my opinion. "It makes me feel better" is the reason to have an ESA. An ESA is NOT a service dog. Someone suffering from PTSD needs a real SD, one that can get assistance if the sufferer needs it. Very different than feeling better stroking a pet. But the crazy people who make the laws have decided that ESAs need to be allowed in housing and now transportation at no cost.

 

CC I, the organization Roz talks about has been suggestion real registration for SDs, which would make everyone know what was really a SD in the US, but that is a long way off.

[babyher]

OKFlame me. But give me a break, enough is enough.

 

 

Whatever happened to the good old days. You needed emotional support, they prescribed Valium for you.

 

Worked like a charm and you didn't have to clean up poop.

 

 

Unless you OD'ed on the stuff and then the medics would have to clean you off.

[Lsimon]

...I have to wonder, where these dogs take care of business!

 

Celebrity's policy on service dogs addresses this:

http://www.celebritycruises.com/onboard-celebrity/cruise-service-animals?subtab=true

 

Of course while true service dogs are highly trained and presumably their owners would be able to follow the policy on this, a fake service dog would be less likely to be trained enough to follow these rules and more apt to have "accidents" around the ship.

[NLH Arizona]

I was an attorney for the military and defended the Navy and MC from many spurious civil rights cases. In three years, I won all my cases. I had perhaps one that deserved modest compensation that we settled. The system encourages people trying to tap into that magical ATM.

 

It is very expensive to defend these cases as the system does not lend itself to easy dismissal.

 

As far as having pet on a cruise, DW commented that for what we pay to have our cat housed by the vet, we could buy a cabin for our kitty. However, the idea of litter boxes in a cabin are too much.

 

I have to wonder, where these dogs take care of business!

A true service dog is trained to go in a litter box, shredded paper, etc. On some cruise lines, they actually have a little patch of grass which can be put on ones balcony. There have been reports of some of these posers whose dogs are relieving themselves in public areas and in some reports, the couple didn't even clean up after them, they just walked away. I hope I'm on a ship with them, because I will report it the health department upon my return from my cruise or at the first US port. A dog pooping in public spaces is a health issue for all and should never happen.

 

I joke that I'm going to make my Old English Sheepdog a emotional support dog and after she is on a ship, they won't want any emotional support dogs cruising. She has one real issue and that is that she can't control her licker and will be trying to give everyone that passes by a kiss.

[cruisestitch]

It is so sad when people abuse a system that has been set up to help people who truly are in need.

 

The use of handicapped parking permits by those who do not qualify is another example of this. I know a woman who uses her sister's handicapped parking permit when she goes to the store to buy groceries for her homebound sister, saying "well, it's cold out and I don't want to walk so far across the parking lot and I'm buying this for her and it's her permit, so that's ok".

 

As a previous poster wrote, it's part of the "life is all about what I want" attitude. Abuse of laws, bending the laws, stretching the truth, makes everyone else resentful.

 

People who claim that they need a service animal when they don't are a dishonest bunch, so I guess that dishonesty is their handicap!

[DinaS]

Celebrity's policy on service dogs addresses this:

http://www.celebritycruises.com/onboard-celebrity/cruise-service-animals?subtab=true

 

Of course while true service dogs are highly trained and presumably their owners would be able to follow the policy on this, a fake service dog would be less likely to be trained enough to follow these rules and more apt to have "accidents" around the ship.

 

Based on Celebrity's policy:

 

"Evidence that a dog is a service dog is helpful, but not required (such as identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses and/or tags or the credible verbal assurance of the person with a disability using the animal)."

 

ANY dog can be brought on the ship since no documentation is required.

 

That's absurd!

[uglybutgoodbakery]

Every time I see a thread about bringing dogs on a cruise, it reminds me of the nightmare I had a few years ago, right before going on a cruise.

In the nightmare, I was on a ship, in our cabin, and pulled my dog out of my suitcase. I was walking him around and around the ship for what seemed like DAYS, only to find there was no grass to walk him on...he ended up falling off our balcony and I was DEVASTATED:eek:

When I woke up, I was thrilled to see him laying there, but it was so weird, he was wearing a little life preserver:p

Edited January 8, 2015 by uglybutgoodbakery
forgot to put the sugar in

[alexspepa]

As others have suggested, anyone wanting legitimate information about travelling with Real Service Animals should check out one of the longest-running threads on Cruise Critic:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=585728&page=662

 

Roz started this thread almost 8 years ago and 660 pages later it is still contributed to several times a day. She and the other Service Dog owners and trainers who contribute to the site are adamant in their disdain and disapproval of people who abuse the system. No real Service Dog would be in a stroller or would eat at the table. To my knowledge the only Emotional Support animals covered under the ADA are those that are being tested for PTSD for returning servicemen and service women. Some of the legitimate tasks a Service Dog or Miniature Horse (the only two animals approved by the ADA) provide in addition to the obvious seeing-eye ones include assisting hearing disabled folks, detecting seizures and diabetic issues, and alerting people with serious allergy issues to dangerous products, assisting with balance issues (that is where a lot of the miniature horses come into play). If you are wondering why there are only two animals recognized, it is because only Dogs and Miniature Horses can be adequately potty-trained at this time.

 

These are truly wonderful animals who undergo months if not years of intensive training and truly assist their owners in living productive lives. They don't poop unless told to and they don't eat at the table, and they are kept immaculately groomed by their grateful owners.

 

Currently there is no such thing as a nationally recognized 'certificate", although many real Service Animal Owners are pushing for such legislation.

 

Roz if you read this I hope I got everything right...thanks for taking the time to educate so many of us over the last 8 years.

 

And thanks to the OP for bringing up the issue...

 

Keith

Edited January 8, 2015 by alexspepa

[Iamcruzin]

Whatever happened to the good old days. You needed emotional support, they prescribed Valium for you.

 

Worked like a charm and you didn't have to clean up poop.

 

 

Unless you OD'ed on the stuff and then the medics would have to clean you off.

I don't think that mother's little helper mixes well with the 123go all you can drink promotion. We would probably miss a lot of ports while they are evacuating all of those who OD'ed

[patterson3]

It's nice that you feel that you can accurately determine who is faking and who has a true need 100% of the time without viewing someone's medical records and consulting with their doctor. I've tried to move away from assuming things about people I don't know, because sometimes when I have more information, I end up feeling like a complete jerk.

 

On the off chance that not every single one of these emotional support dog bringers are liars, I'm not willing to shun and shame someone who has an actual need. I'm also not willing to go out on a limb and say they don't deserve a relaxing cruise vacation. Maybe that person deserves it more than I do.

 

I am sure the cruiselines do get the occasional faker who just wants to bring Fido with them, and I think any support dog should be well controlled in public (though that is a requirement even for a sham certificate). To take advantage of this is disgusting in my opinion, and I think it makes it harder for those with legit issues. My wish is that these people would stop their dishonesty. I'm just not confident that I can diagnose and prescribe treatment for a complete stranger based on assumptions alone... and without a proper medical license.

 

Sapphire, I completely agree with you. Like most of the posters on this topic I have a great deal of contempt for people who take advantage of the system and do not have true service dogs, but I don't think it's my place to decide which dogs are service dogs and which aren't without full knowledge of the situation. In this case it certainly appears that 2 service dogs in a stroller may be a stretch to be classified as "service dogs", but I would never refuse to eat at the same table as someone who had a dog that they called a service dog simply because I couldn't recognize their disability right away. Perhaps they are a diabetic, an epileptic, a veteran with PTSD, autistic, or some other disability that is not instantly recognizable and the dog is providing a legitimate service. If I refused to eat with that person and it turns out my assumption about them taking advantage of the system was wrong, then I'm just as bad as the people who take advantage of the system.

 

Without a doubt there are probably lots of people taking advantage of the system, but I know I would feel awful if I incorrectly accused, or even assumed that someone was a fraud when, in fact, they had a disability and their dog was providing a legitimate service.

[patterson3]

Based on Celebrity's policy:

 

"Evidence that a dog is a service dog is helpful, but not required (such as identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses and/or tags or the credible verbal assurance of the person with a disability using the animal)."

 

ANY dog can be brought on the ship since no documentation is required.

 

That's absurd!

 

That is pretty absurd. I'm guessing it's because, as other posters have pointed out, many businesses are afraid of a potential lawsuit.

 

As much as I love my pets, I think taking them on vacation would be a huge inconvenience. I'm pretty active and having my dog or cats onboard would prevent me from fully enjoying my vacation, whether it's a cruise or land vacation. And even if I didn't want to do anything active and just wanted to relax I would think having a dog with me all the time would be an inconvenience. If it wasn't a true service dog it would need some sort of stimulation and exercise. I'm guessing that's how most rational thinking people would view having their pets onboard, and perhaps Celebrity is (perhaps naively?) trusting the judgment of their customers?

[drfun48]

I have previously brought my service llama on cruises I wonder if I can bring a second now

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[patterson3]

I have previously brought my service llama on cruises I wonder if I can bring a second now

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

Only if you keep them in a stroller! ;)

[Caribbean Chris]

I have to wonder, where these dogs take care of business!

 

On Constellation, a mulch-filled plywood relief box provided by Celebrity was on Deck Four, starboard side forward.

 

I have a black Lab trained by Dogs for the Deaf in Oregon (http://www.dogsforthedeaf.org), a wonderful nonprofit that screens applicants rigorously and provides dogs to deaf and severely hearing-impaired people at no cost. Most of their dogs are found in shelters on the West Coast and can be quite small-sized and still perform their tasks. Some, like mine, are Career Change dogs from Guide Dogs for the Blind in CA.

 

We just made a cruise in December and my dog adapted very well to the box, used it on command, and never had any accidents, even though it was a long walk -our room was in the aft section two decks up from the box. She also sat quietly under or beside the table in dining venues and never barked for nine days. The dog enjoyed lots of petting and attention from other passengers and crew who were quite friendly for the most part. We enjoyed our first cruise with her after many prior to her arrival in my life.

 

Deafness is an invisible disability so perhaps some folks might wonder if Hearing Dog handlers are faking it when they observe us in conversations or don't see us using sign language. Many of us were deafened after childhood, speak normally and have learned to read lips very well.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Caribbean Chris

[alexspepa]

I have previously brought my service llama on cruises I wonder if I can bring a second now

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

actually a reporter for the New Yorker magazine wrote about an experiment where she used some of the following animals as therapy animals and got admittance to just about everywhere:

 

llama

pig

snake

turtle and more...here is the link, it is a funny read...sad too.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/20/pets-allowed

[cle-guy]

That is pretty absurd. I'm guessing it's because, as other posters have pointed out, many businesses are afraid of a potential lawsuit.

 

As much as I love my pets, I think taking them on vacation would be a huge inconvenience. I'm pretty active and having my dog or cats onboard would prevent me from fully enjoying my vacation, whether it's a cruise or land vacation. And even if I didn't want to do anything active and just wanted to relax I would think having a dog with me all the time would be an inconvenience. If it wasn't a true service dog it would need some sort of stimulation and exercise. I'm guessing that's how most rational thinking people would view having their pets onboard, and perhaps Celebrity is (perhaps naively?) trusting the judgment of their customers?

 

The ADA laws are why this is the policy. The ADA law says that a company can ask only 2 questions:

1) Is that a service animal?

2) What service does it perform?

 

ADA does not allow a company to ask for any documentation or verification to these answers, as there is no nationally accepted documentation to provide. In fact, I'd say anyone with any sort of "certificate" or "ID Badge" likely got them via one of the phony websites, and those animals are more suspect, yet so long as the owner answers those 2 questions satisfactorily, the animal is considered a service animal.

 

Emotional Support animals are even more blurry, ADA does not cover them, but companies tend to not make a differentiation between ADA regulated service animals (by definition must perform "work" which means doing something, exerting energy) as they don't want the drama they will endure from the owners.

 

ADA is very vague and broad, and not very easy to enforce, it errs on the side of the individual rather than the company, as it probably rightly should do.

 

There has been a push in the last several years for "emotional support dogs" to become covered under ADA and some doctors will write prescriptions for issues such as PTSD for this, but still, technically, as the dogs do not perform "work" - "exert energy" - they are not covered under the ADA laws.

 

My doctor for example suggested I get a dog when I was going thru some emotional issues,... I did, is he an emotional support animal? I don't think so.

Edited January 8, 2015 by cle-guy

[helen haywood]

There were two such dogs on our fall Reflection trans-Atlantic cruise last year. I observed one barking in the Oceanview Cafe and another one playing with a tissue he/she found on the floor of an elevator. Obviously not true service animals.

[gold1953]

On the Constellation In Nov. there was a small white dog who went everywhere with the owner. It was obvious that she was looking for attention from anyone who wanted to pet the dog. It climbed all over deck chairs and barked a lot!! It was quite annoying when relaxing at the pool. She took it everywhere with her and it did not seem to be well trained at all.

[MGK]

New level of ridiculous.

 

What would really make me angry is if the dog owners reserved deck chairs for the dogs. Instead of chair hogs would they be called "chair dogs?" :D

[Sapphire723]

New level of ridiculous.

 

What would really make me angry is if the dog owners reserved deck chairs for the dogs. Instead of chair hogs would they be called "chair dogs?" :D

 

Now that sounds like a pretty good service. I wonder if I could train a pup to scout out an unoccupied deck chair or buffet seat and reserve it for me! :p (Just kidding. I would never chair "dog" something unless I was just getting up for a few minutes to use the facilities or grab a drink.)