Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[Jim_Iain]

I can see this is a heated issue but in no place does the requirement of a letter from my doctor indicate that Celebrity is making a determination that I am unable to cruise.   The discussion is between my doctor and I.    This is not based on an arbitrary set of rules but at the recommendation of the Cruise Industry and the relevant governmental agencies. 

 

I had this discussion with my doctor he gladly signed the form but did provide me with HIS and the CDC recommendations that I not cruise.  

 

My county is very good on statistics and publish a daily updated portal to infections, deaths etc.   While Santa Clara County is a subset of the world population the data is indisputable that population that is 70 and above and those with underlying conditions are most at risk for death.   It clearly shows that if you are a Male over 70 with at least one of the underlying conditions you should have a discussion with you Doctor.

 

First is a bar chart on % of deaths due to underlying conditions listed in the medical form

 

Second is Deaths by Age Group -

 

 

Now this one I find really interesting.   Death's by Sex

 

 

Finally which is really interesting, is the number of Confirmed cases by age group.

 

 

 

 

[mauimary]

A lot of us who are 60-70 and 71-80 are being very careful with our self isolating.  If we should happen to get it especially if we’re 71-80 our chances of dying are higher.  Looks like anyone regardless of age with underlying conditions are at a greater risk of dying. 
 

So why would anyone want to purposely put themselves in harms way in an enclosed environment for several weeks.  Sounds like one would be inviting trouble.  If your physician advises against it why would you do it?   I know ours would advise NO.   Obviously someone who has never cruised does not have the understanding of our draw to cruising nor  the excitement. But from a pure medical standpoint the risks do not change the picture.  
 

We have been cruising for 15 years now and have never been sick not one single day. We have been all over the place. We are unfortunately like so many others suddenly considered high risk.  There has never been a virus with no one having immunity and there is no cure. It’s a whole different world out there. 

[MAHA]

On 4/10/2020 at 8:05 PM, Denny01 said:

Again, you are saying you’d cruise (pandemic or not) if your Dr wouldn’t fill out the form thinking you are not well enough? Have you looked at the form?? If your Dr wouldn’t fill this out, your shouldn’t be cruising. If your Dr has told you they won’t sign it, then get their statement, send it to your TA and let them work it out with X. 

 

 

 

 

The problem with the form in it's current wording states that the person does not have any chronic condition, not the severity of those conditions.  Many of those 70 and over have high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes (or type 1 from childhood), atrial fibrilation, asthma, copd, etc. and are very stable with medications and/or lifestyle changes (exercise, diet).  Right now, they are at higher risk of having cmplications for Covid-19, but during normal non-pandemic times, are medically fit to travel.  Let's hope that this is only for during this pandemic!

 

[Flatbush Flyer]

22 minutes ago, MAHA said:

The problem with the form in it's current wording states that the person does not have any chronic condition, not the severity of those conditions.  Many of those 70 and over have high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes (or type 1 from childhood), atrial fibrilation, asthma, copd, etc. and are very stable with medications and/or lifestyle changes (exercise, diet).  Right now, they are at higher risk of having cmplications for Covid-19, but during normal non-pandemic times, are medically fit to travel.  Let's hope that this is only for during this pandemic!

 

Worse still, "younger" folks who may have a far greater array and degree of compromising issues don't need to do anything(?)!!!

Fortunately, not all cruise lines require this idiocy.

If they need to do something specific, follow the example of Emirates Air with quick diagnostic tests at embarkation (to which they might want to add any available quick test for antibodies)

Expensive? Perhaps but the cost could be added as a surcharge (not unlike a visa).

Edited April 18, 2020 by Flatbush Flyer

[Denny01]

18 hours ago, MAHA said:

The problem with the form in it's current wording states that the person does not have any chronic condition, not the severity of those conditions.  Many of those 70 and over have high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes (or type 1 from childhood), atrial fibrilation, asthma, copd, etc. and are very stable with medications and/or lifestyle changes (exercise, diet).  Right now, they are at higher risk of having cmplications for Covid-19, but during normal non-pandemic times, are medically fit to travel.  Let's hope that this is only for during this pandemic!

 

Then I guess an actual Dr would understand that and all would be worked out. The form isn’t a technical document giving directions to the Dr, and they can figure it out just as they do on many other very similar forms.

 

Den

[DaveSJ711]

18 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

If they need to do something specific, follow the example of Emirates Air with quick diagnostic tests at embarkation (to which they might want to add any available quick test for antibodies)

 

Just to be clear, the Emirates Air blood test does not diagnose a current and active infection.  Rather, it checks for the presence of antibodies in the immune system.  Their presence means a person has been exposed to COVID-19 and developed antibodies against it.

[MAHA]

53 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

Then I guess an actual Dr would understand that and all would be worked out. The form isn’t a technical document giving directions to the Dr, and they can figure it out just as they do on many other very similar forms.

 

Den

Actually from reading people's responses to the note in it's current form, no doctor will actually sign it for those over 70 who tried.  They say it's too much of a liability.  So, no one over 70, even those without any medical conditions were able to get it signed prior to cruises being suspended.

 

[Denny01]

29 minutes ago, MAHA said:

Actually from reading people's responses to the note in it's current form, no doctor will actually sign it for those over 70 who tried.  They say it's too much of a liability.  So, no one over 70, even those without any medical conditions were able to get it signed prior to cruises being suspended.

 

I guess you didn’t read my earlier post that my Dr stated she would sign it for me and my wife.....so maybe we should look to what actual Drs would actually do instead of anonymous posts. I have a feeling someone will post who says they’re Drs will chime in, but I think many are blowing this way out of proportion. 

 

Den

Edited April 19, 2020 by Denny01

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 4/11/2020 at 12:05 AM, ldubs said:

 

Or, put another way, should a BMI of 30 or greater not be allowed to board.   

Stopping them would shut down the food troughs...

[Ride-The-Waves]

We need to remember that this edict comes from CLIA and offers guidance to its members.  Its not a specific Celebrity created requirement.  Still, it needs to be moderated.  Being on a ship is not the same as on land.  Cruising - travel by ship - has its inherent challenges to include distance from a medical center.  CLIA and its members should also state/understand that if a doctor declines to certify one's health for cruising that immediately triggers either/both a refund or insurance coverage for the cost of the trip.

[traveline]

On 4/10/2020 at 10:54 AM, Flatbush Flyer said:

As aforementioned, this is a questionable PR stunt by mass market lines that, ultimately, will backfire.

The only "silver lining" for mass market lines keeping up this stupidity will be to bolster the senior citizen bookings by folks who "jump ship" from the mass market line (in a particular family of lines) to its more expensive premium/luxury brand (where there are no such age-based requirements.

This is recomendations by the CDC for all ships. I believe this will go away as soon as the virus slows downs.If you are not sailing before October do not worry about the 70 and over. Cruise lines do not want to lose that market.

[fingerlakesmike]

We are booked for an NCL cruise to Alaska in late August.  We were going with our kids and were

really looking forward to it.  Now, from what I've been reading and researching, we probably

will be cancelling our part of the cruise.

I amd a Type1 Diabetic on an insulin pump for over 30 years. I have other

chronic diseases.

My wife is a year into being diagnosed with Parkinsons Disease.  Very mild, though

noticeable.

This would have been our 14th cruise.  We've never had any issues, but(as some have said)

getting a doctor to put his name on the line to say you won't have issues is next to impossible.

 

We've so enjoyed our cruising and loved every cruise we ventured on.  We will miss it.

 

Bon Voyage to all

 

[Covepointcruiser]

If your doctor won’t sign a note saying you are “fit to sail” then you should not sail.   If your immune compromised it is not the time to be cruising.

[Bramcruiser]

This is getting really crazy. I have Type 2 diabetes according to the doctors which found this out 4 years ago. I have managed it extremely well using insulin and with proper diet. I had even  continued on with international travel and cruises since then. The cruise lines were more than helpful in everything from providing those plastic cases to dispose of the needles to making arrangements with the culinary staff if I had any dietary concerns. I had always left it to "I'll eat from the regular menu and just watch what I eat". Not once did I have an issue with my diabetes. But now with this Covid scare I'll suddenly be on a list of not being allowed to go unless a doctor clears me? Like as if the doctor has better things to do than to write up such letters. But even if so, I resent being a leper in this day and age when I wasn't considered a leper the last three years. If cruise ships continue on this run, it may be time to stop cruising and do more land travel overseas. I am only in my mid 50s so hate to believe I already have one foot in the grave.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Bramcruiser

[Jim_Iain]

4 hours ago, MAHA said:

Actually from reading people's responses to the note in it's current form, no doctor will actually sign it for those over 70 who tried.  They say it's too much of a liability.  So, no one over 70, even those without any medical conditions were able to get it signed prior to cruises being suspended.

 

Respectfully disagree.   

 

I am disturbed by someone making a statement like this without any evidence.

As I have indicated a couple times here.   I had a discussion with my Doctor when the form first came out and he signed it for a B2B2B.   He did also caution me to the CDC guidelines. 

[markeb]

Just now, Jim_Iain said:

Respectfully disagree.   

 

I am disturbed by someone making a statement like this without any evidence.

As I have indicated a couple times here.   I had a discussion with my Doctor when the form first came out and he signed it for a B2B2B.   He did also caution me to the CDC guidelines. 

 

Absolutes on this question are rarely true. Every physician will have to make a decision within their own knowledge and comfort. I would suggest that many won't sign it, but I'd never say all. (Unless there's a backlash from their insurers, specialty colleges, or regulatory bodies.) 

 

And it could change as information changes...

[MAHA]

40 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

Respectfully disagree.   

 

I am disturbed by someone making a statement like this without any evidence.

As I have indicated a couple times here.   I had a discussion with my Doctor when the form first came out and he signed it for a B2B2B.   He did also caution me to the CDC guidelines. 

On many Royal Caribbean and Celebrity Facebook groups, every person who said they tried to get their doctor to sign the forms said the doctors refused due to liability.  Maybe you have no health pre-existing conditions like high blood pressure, afib, high cholesterol, diabetes, copd or asthma, but many 70 year old have at least one of those.  The form clearly states that the doctor certifies the person has none of those chronic conditions, not whether it is well controlled with medications or not.

 

[Jim_Iain]

37 minutes ago, MAHA said:

On many Royal Caribbean and Celebrity Facebook groups, every person who said they tried to get their doctor to sign the forms said the doctors refused due to liability.  Maybe you have no health pre-existing conditions like high blood pressure, afib, high cholesterol, diabetes, copd or asthma, but many 70 year old have at least one of those.  The form clearly states that the doctor certifies the person has none of those chronic conditions, not whether it is well controlled with medications or not.

 

 

You are correct.   My objection was  to some posts that state  NO (100%) of doctors would sign it.  I know of at least a dozen CC members who had the form signed.  

 

Even though I am over 70,  I do not have any  underlying medical conditions and probably heather than many in their 50's.  I walk 10 miles a day - 365 days a year rain or shine and maintain a BFI of 23.  

 

At least the form that I downloaded from Celebrity lists the per-existing conditions but then goes on to  say -

 

"which would make this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronovirus."  

[Flatbush Flyer]

17 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

 

At least the form that I downloaded from Celebrity lists the per-existing conditions but then goes on to  say -

 

"which would make this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronovirus."  

And therein lies the "splitting of the hairs."

Your doc may believe that having one or more of those underlying conditions does not make a geezer susceptible but, the empirical evidence says it does. In fact, the evidence says that anyone of any age with any of those underlying conditions (plus others like morbid obesity) is "susceptible."

 

"Susceptible" is a bad choice of words in this case. Everyone is "susceptible" to Covid-19. Perhaps they could have said "dangerously/unquestionably/etc susceptible."

But it really doesn't matter because the statement is (and will remain) illogical. And that's why no MD should sign THAT form.

[DaveSJ711]

41 minutes ago, MAHA said:

The form clearly states that the doctor certifies the person has none of those chronic conditions, not whether it is well controlled with medications or not.

 

 

You omitted a critical part of the form.  It doesn't apply to every chronic condition.  Instead, it requires a doctor to certify that his/her patient doesn't suffer from any chronic condition "which would make this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCov)/COVID-19."  In other words, only conditions that make the patient susceptible to COVID complications are subject to the certification.

 

 

 

   

[Fouremco]

54 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

At least the form that I downloaded from Celebrity lists the per-existing conditions but then goes on to  say -

 

"which would make this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronovirus." 

Just to clarify, the form provides examples of pre-existing conditions, not an all-inclusive list.

[jelayne]

So far I haven’t seen anything from X that

states when this form must be signed, within 7 days, 20 days 60 days, etc....of sailing?  Has anyone see that info?

 

We intend to meet with doctor before final payment if they sign we go if not we cancel and get our deposit refunded.

[Mr. Click]

On 3/13/2020 at 12:16 PM, tiggy85 said:

Here is the questionnaire on their website right now.

 

https://www.celebritycruises.com/content/dam/celebrity/pdf/public-health-questionnaire-v2.pdf
 

 

This form is for everyone, the Fit to Sail Form is for those of us over 70.  We asked one of our doctors about and he said no way he could sign it.  He said it only asks if you have these conditions and between us we have 5 of them.....yet we are pretty healthy because we work to stay that way.   4 of the 5 issues we deal with are not curable but we are not cronic with them. The 5 is kidney stones and that is a whole other kettle of fish because it is not a disease.

[Mark_T]

2 hours ago, Mr. Click said:

..  4 of the 5 issues we deal with are not curable but we are not cronic with them.

 

Yes, you are...

 

Chronic is not a definition of severity or impact, it just means ... 'persisting for a long time or constantly recurring'.

 

So yes, you have chronic conditions.

 

The problem with the wording they are using is the ambiguous and somewhat undefined use of 'severe'.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 3/12/2020 at 9:19 PM, MightyMike said:

Who in Celebrity's elderly-skewing demographic *doesn't* have some type of chronic condition? I'm sure there are some, but Celebrity won't be able to get the boats half full anymore if that's the new criteria. 

Agree.  

 

What this implies is that X will have way too much capacity following the shutdown.  Most likely scenario is that ships will be sold (if possible) and lines will be smaller offering more limited cruising options.