Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[drakes2]

35 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Have you followed any of the river cruise boards? I haven't at all, and have no idea what the chatter is there and the feeling about their restarts.

@FouremcoNo I have not been following them. My son, his wife and 3 Grandchildren live in Amsterdam and I go for a visit every summer except this summer. Was actually looking at the Reflection next summer from there. If that doesn't happen I can always do a river cruise. 

[Jim_Iain]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:31 AM, Fouremco said:

As I just posted in greater detail in another thread, an antibody test really has no bearing on the doctor's ability to sign off. The doctor has to certify that you have no chronic illness that would make you susceptible to complications arising after infection. There's no provision for the doctor to state that the patient is unlikely to become infected because of a positive antibody test. As currently worded, the form ties the hands of the doctor.

Conceptually I agree with you but when I was going to obtain a certification I called Celebrity and they pointed me to the e-mail 

 

Boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

 

They also said that I could have the doctor certify by letter, email or by use of the form they had provided.   I was also informed the Actual Form was not mandatory.  

 

Since I was already in transit to my 3/14 (which did not require the certification) I sent my doctor the form for the 3/21 and 3/28  portions of the B2B2B.   Of course I never used it as the 3/14 was cancelled just as I landed in FLL.

[Fouremco]

6 minutes ago, Jim_Iain said:

Conceptually I agree with you but when I was going to obtain a certification I called Celebrity and they pointed me to the e-mail 

 

Boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

 

They also said that I could have the doctor certify by letter, email or by use of the form they had provided.   I was also informed the Actual Form was not mandatory.  

 

Since I was already in transit to my 3/14 (which did not require the certification) I sent my doctor the form for the 3/21 and 3/28  portions of the B2B2B.   Of course I never used it as the 3/14 was cancelled just as I landed in FLL.

Thanks Jim. Given the inconsistency of responses from Celebrity, however, I'm not sure how much faith I would put on the wording of the email versus the wording of the form. I know that my cardiologist would be happy to say that I have no SEVERE chronic medical condition and that I'm fit to travel, but I'd hate to arrive at the port, ready to embark, only to be told that I need a form to be signed, not a letter, and that ANY chronic heart issue was a disqualifier, not just severe ones. 

[hockeymom32]

On 4/10/2020 at 2:58 PM, Denny01 said:

So you would cruise if your Dr thought you shouldn’t and you couldn’t get them to fill out the form? Obviously the Lines are focusing on the higher risk group, which is ‘us’, and I already talked with my Dr and she said if I needed a form prior to my next Appt, she could fill one out based on my last checkup and I could send it in via email. My wife thought it was a great idea....until I reminded her she’d be 70 before our next cruise and she then didn’t think it was sooooo good. 

 

Personally, I agree with the ‘make all do it’ but at least the Lines are working those of us in the higher risk group. We’ve all seen more than a few who you’d question why they are cruising, especially the longer cruises and few of those are the younger crowd and almost always ‘us’. 

 

Barely related Story, but I’ve got to tell it:

On our TA a number of years ago, our table mate who was about 60 and his wife who was much older and in a wheelchair and obviously very ill. She made it through 3 nights before she was in the infirmary and died before we reached the Azores. My wife and another lady at our table were sure the husband took her on that cruise to knock her off! Really weird part of it: he was going to miss the Lobster dinner because he had to get off early, so he got it the night before docking.....and they served him TWO lobsters. I sat there watching and when he left, I announced: “He Ate his Dead Wife’s Lobster!!!” and I joined my wife’s and our table mate’s theory he killer her off!!

 

Enough. I know the apparent arbitrary rules set by age for this and such things as some tours are not ‘fair’ but mainly its because we as individuals wont use common sense on much of this.

 

Den

I hate to sound morbid BUT people die every single day whether they are tucked away safely at home or on a cruise ship.  We are ALL going to die one of these days, and if you do not believe it the "extras" to keep you alive (vents, drugs, hospitals) and you want to go out doing what you love to do, then why deny someone to go on a cruise.  Maybe that person would rather spend their last breath on the ocean.  Since I obviously did not see the guy eat his wife's Lobster, maybe she was terminal, and knowing she was going to die on that cruise, she wanted him to enjoy the last meal of a lobster even though she could not have hers.  I know for myself, have told my husband if my time is almost up, to please take me to Moorea and park me in a chair by the ocean.  If I'm gonna die, at least I'm gonna go the way I want and not stuck in some damn hospital bed with a ventilator breathing for me, and being pumped with drugs to keep me here.  Just a different view of dying on a cruise ship.

 

[az_tchr]

4 hours ago, Laurab23 said:

Is it 70 and older or older than 70? It says over 70 so if you are just 70 how does that work out?

 

Laura

At this point does that matter?  No cruising is happening or likely to happen any time soon.

[Denny01]

39 minutes ago, hockeymom32 said:

I hate to sound morbid BUT people die every single day whether they are tucked away safely at home or on a cruise ship.  We are ALL going to die one of these days, and if you do not believe it the "extras" to keep you alive (vents, drugs, hospitals) and you want to go out doing what you love to do, then why deny someone to go on a cruise.  Maybe that person would rather spend their last breath on the ocean.  Since I obviously did not see the guy eat his wife's Lobster, maybe she was terminal, and knowing she was going to die on that cruise, she wanted him to enjoy the last meal of a lobster even though she could not have hers.  I know for myself, have told my husband if my time is almost up, to please take me to Moorea and park me in a chair by the ocean.  If I'm gonna die, at least I'm gonna go the way I want and not stuck in some damn hospital bed with a ventilator breathing for me, and being pumped with drugs to keep me here.  Just a different view of dying on a cruise ship.

 

Weill, I guess that’s one view of life.....or more appropriately, Death. So go aboard and die?? Got it. There have been more than a few reports of people deciding to end it on a cruise and leap over the side, causing a great deal of problems for everyone who have to search and so on, but what the heck, let them go out the way they want, right? Eat a lobster and then join them?? And of course, dying onboard doesn’t cause anyone any issues, now does it. 

 

And somehow thinking you are going to die in the next week or so, so you go on a cruise? Are you really serious? How does that really work except in a movie or book, or in more than a bit of an imagination. Let’s open up the ships and allow  patients coming onboard in their hospital beds and so on. You do realize 99.99% of those that will die within a week or so aren’t, shall we say, mobile, or aware of their coming departure?

 

So yes, I don’t think anyone wants to end it laying in a hospital bed hooked up, but somehow at the ‘end’, many family members insist on it and refuse to accept death. And more than a few friends have gone home, and have terminal care there.......where it actually belongs. Not the hospital......or a cruise ship. 

 

Den 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Denny01

[az_tchr]

1 hour ago, Momma Rene said:

If you bought the cruise before the doctor's note was required AND you paid for insurance, do you get your insurance money returned?  Our cruise is in December and final payment is in August.  I am thinking a LOT of people are in our situation, however, I cannot find an answer anywhere including my travel agent.  My travel agent said he MAY be able to move it to a land excursion.  I'm so frustrated.  Forgive the all caps.  We paid nearly $800 in insurance money.

The question is more complicated.  When did you buy your insurance?  If after January 22nd or so you have no coverage for anything caused by COVID.   Also what type of insurance did you buy?  That would include your not cruising because of the doctor's note that was put in place temporarily.

Again not idea of what type of insurance you bought etc.  This discussion is one you should have with your insurance company or on the insurance board.

A question to you - if covid19 is still active in August do you think the idea of cruising would be very smart?  Do you think cruising will resume if covid19 is still active?

What I do know is over 1/3 of Celebrity cruisers are 70+ and 2/3 of those would have at least 1 underlying condition.  No doctor should sign a note and Celebrity will not be successful requiring one.

[Momma Rene]

8 minutes ago, az_tchr said:

The question is more complicated.  When did you buy your insurance?  If after January 22nd or so you have no coverage for anything caused by COVID.   Also what type of insurance did you buy?  That would include your not cruising because of the doctor's note that was put in place temporarily.

Again not idea of what type of insurance you bought etc.  This discussion is one you should have with your insurance company or on the insurance board.

A question to you - if covid19 is still active in August do you think the idea of cruising would be very smart?  Do you think cruising will resume if covid19 is still active?

What I do know is over 1/3 of Celebrity cruisers are 70+ and 2/3 of those would have at least 1 underlying condition.  No doctor should sign a note and Celebrity will not be successful requiring one.

I purchased cancel for any reason in February.  At this time, I have no interest in cruising in December due to doctor's note requirement which was put into place after I purchased the insurance.  My question is if I cannot cruise due to the doctor's note requirement, I feel I should get my $800 back.  The cruise line is not allowing me on the cruise.  Therefore, I should get money returned.  I cannot get a straight answer from my travel agent.  I am thinking a lot of people are in a similar situation.

[markeb]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

 

We don't even need lasting immunity though.

 

Yes, it would be ideal of course, but it would be sufficient to have greatly reduced symptoms and reduced probability of transfer to others, and so far what evidence their is tends to suggest this is more likely than not.

 

The doubts over this seem to come mostly from a limited number of cases of reinfection in South Korea, but there is no clarity on how reliable those reports really are at this point.

 

So yes, we will see what happens...

 

I don't mean lifetime by lasting, but a year or so would be nice. Lifetime would be great. I'm assuming someone is at least doing the lab based neutralization studies to know the IgG is effective in the lab.Otherwise doing a rapid IgG test and assuming immunity is a pretty big leap of faith.

 

The ROK results are interesting, but completely unexplained. We'll have to wait and see. Very small numbers, and some fear that extremely mild infections don't provoke enough of an immune response. If that continues, it will take a very long study to chase that one down.

 

In animals, you have this really bad situation where immunity to one subtype of coronavirus leads to an enhancement reaction on subsequent infection to another subtype (same virus; different subtypes). That's what scares me a little when we eventually see the East Coast (apparently Italian origin) virus mingle with people who've recovered from the West Coast (apparently more directly Asian origin) and vice versa. They're slightly different genetically, but they may be the same antigenically; I haven't seen that data. In people and animals you've had a historic problem with vaccination enhancing subsequent natural infection. Those are the things that will hopefully get sorted out during clinical trials.

[LorraineP]

53 minutes ago, Momma Rene said:

I purchased cancel for any reason in February.  At this time, I have no interest in cruising in December due to doctor's note requirement which was put into place after I purchased the insurance.  My question is if I cannot cruise due to the doctor's note requirement, I feel I should get my $800 back.  The cruise line is not allowing me on the cruise.  Therefore, I should get money returned.  I cannot get a straight answer from my travel agent.  I am thinking a lot of people are in a similar situation.

Same position. Would definitely like to know. 

[ldubs]

23 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Thank you @ldubs, that's a new addition to the restructured Q&As. I'm very surprised that they would be so liberal, but it's good news for those requiring a doctor's ok. It means being able to see a doctor before final payment and cancel if you can't get the doctor's sign off. 

 

No problem and thanks.  Truth be told I just happened to trip over that in the Celebrity Q&A.   

 

Anyway, IMO,  anyone concerned that they might be declined boarding should talk to their doctor now, meaning long before the cruise date and hopefully before cancel date.   Those that have questions about insurance coverage should talk to whoever they bought the policy from.  Concerns about refunds if denied boarding because of the form should be addressed to the cruise line. There is certainly a lot of talent here on CC, but for most all of these types of questions it is best to get the word officially from the source.    

 

One thing I think we can, or at least should, all agree on is the sooner the pandemic is managed the better. 

[GeroWA]

It's really comforting knowing that should you be refused boarding due to lack of Fit to Travel form signed by a Doctor that at least we will get a FCC. What use is that if you can't use it? 

[Momma Rene]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

No problem and thanks.  Truth be told I just happened to trip over that in the Celebrity Q&A.   

 

Anyway, IMO,  anyone concerned that they might be declined boarding should talk to their doctor now, meaning long before the cruise date and hopefully before cancel date.   Those that have questions about insurance coverage should talk to whoever they bought the policy from.  Concerns about refunds if denied boarding because of the form should be addressed to the cruise line. There is certainly a lot of talent here on CC, but for most all of these types of questions it is best to get the word officially from the source.    

 

One thing I think we can, or at least should, all agree on is the sooner the pandemic is managed the better. 

That is the problem!  Talked to travel agent, they don't know.  Get run around from insurance company.  This board is to discuss what people are discovering.  

[ldubs]

7 minutes ago, Momma Rene said:

That is the problem!  Talked to travel agent, they don't know.  Get run around from insurance company.  This board is to discuss what people are discovering.  

 

I agree and didn't mean to be critical but guess it could read that way.  As I said, I respect a lot of the folk's knowledge here on CC.   But bottom line is only the insurance (or cruise line, or doctor) will be able to give you an answer you can bank on.  At least that was the point I think I was trying to make.   I'm sorry to hear the insurer was not responsive. I hope it all works to your advantage.  

[Content@Sea]

Any advice on what to do?

1. My Celebrity cruise was booked through a Travel Agency in 2019 and deposit paid for Sydney - New Zealand -Sydney sailing in late October 2020. 

2. 10 days ago I found an incredible flight fare from MIA-SYD for about half usual of usual Qatar business class fare of $8000. I've been watching the fares for a while (Google flights) and booked immediately thru Amex Platinum Travel (5 x points) Non-refundable under any circumstances.

3. A few days ago, I was alerted to this thread and realized that the 70+ doctor letter thing was already in place six weeks ago. 

 

Immediately I queried my agent why I hadn't been alerted to the 70+ thing weeks ago. It's a travel agent's job to know about these things. Agent has no idea and has gone off to confer with her Celebrity contact.

 

If I had known about the age restriction, I'd have held off buying my air ticket until the dust settled. And might have cancelled the cruise totally. As others have pointed out, USA doctors are very aware of litigation/liability in signing such declarations. 

 

What options do I have on getting the travel agent to take responsibility for not keeping customers informed? And thus - my flight ticket expense.

 

Thanks for any/all advice. 🙂

  

 

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, Content@Sea said:

Any advice on what to do?

1. My Celebrity cruise was booked through a Travel Agency in 2019 and deposit paid for Sydney - New Zealand -Sydney sailing in late October 2020. 

2. 10 days ago I found an incredible flight fare from MIA-SYD for about half usual of usual Qatar business class fare of $8000. I've been watching the fares for a while (Google flights) and booked immediately thru Amex Platinum Travel (5 x points) Non-refundable under any circumstances.

3. A few days ago, I was alerted to this thread and realized that the 70+ doctor letter thing was already in place six weeks ago. 

 

Immediately I queried my agent why I hadn't been alerted to the 70+ thing weeks ago. It's a travel agent's job to know about these things. Agent has no idea and has gone off to confer with her Celebrity contact.

 

If I had known about the age restriction, I'd have held off buying my air ticket until the dust settled. And might have cancelled the cruise totally. As others have pointed out, USA doctors are very aware of litigation/liability in signing such declarations. 

 

What options do I have on getting the travel agent to take responsibility for not keeping customers informed? And thus - my flight ticket expense.

 

Thanks for any/all advice. 🙂

  

 

 

I wish I could help more, but the only advice I would have is to ask your doctor now about the form.  I agree that many have pointing out the potential malpractice concerns.   But I have also seen posts from folks who have actually talked to their doctors and received a nod on the form.  

 

I hope this all works out for you.  

 

 

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, Content@Sea said:

Any advice on what to do?

1. My Celebrity cruise was booked through a Travel Agency in 2019 and deposit paid for Sydney - New Zealand -Sydney sailing in late October 2020. 

2. 10 days ago I found an incredible flight fare from MIA-SYD for about half usual of usual Qatar business class fare of $8000. I've been watching the fares for a while (Google flights) and booked immediately thru Amex Platinum Travel (5 x points) Non-refundable under any circumstances.

3. A few days ago, I was alerted to this thread and realized that the 70+ doctor letter thing was already in place six weeks ago. 

 

Immediately I queried my agent why I hadn't been alerted to the 70+ thing weeks ago. It's a travel agent's job to know about these things. Agent has no idea and has gone off to confer with her Celebrity contact.

 

If I had known about the age restriction, I'd have held off buying my air ticket until the dust settled. And might have cancelled the cruise totally. As others have pointed out, USA doctors are very aware of litigation/liability in signing such declarations. 

 

What options do I have on getting the travel agent to take responsibility for not keeping customers informed? And thus - my flight ticket expense.

 

Thanks for any/all advice. 🙂

  

 

I need to edit my previous response.   Sometimes my reading comprehension is lacking.  I missed the issue that your TA failed to advise you of this new requirement.  It looks to me that you should have been advised well ahead of the date you booked your flights.  I mean that is a pretty significant change in requirements and it should have been communicated, IMO.   What can you do?  If you are OK to cruise, then nothing is needed.  If your doctor says they won't sign off for the cruise  then maybe check the max for your State's small claims court. Or, maybe keener minds than mine will have a solution.  Good luck and stay safe.   

[hcat]

18 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Personally, I don't think that they'll be cruising again until such time as the form is no longer required. But if they do restart sooner than expected, then we need to look at what their current rules say: if you can't get a note and therefore can't board, you get an FCC, not a refund. That being the case, I can't see them allowing you to cash in an existing FCC for a refund. As we are sitting on several thousand dollars in FCC, but know that no doctor would sign our forms, I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see Celebrity loosening its purse strings. 

 

Therein lies the rub...inability to utilize  large FCC that was  issued before the note requirement was put in play. People might have made a diff choice had they known!

 

Odd  logic by Celebrity.....you can't get the note so you can't cruise ..They give you a FCC they know  you can't use b/c you can't get a note ??? Does this make sense to anyone?

 

If we find we cannot get a note, we will cancel well before final payment ...and rip up our  existing fcc...

[llawrence]

In talking to my doctor, he stated he could not sign a note.  He works under our major hospital group, and is prohibited from giving patients notes with that broad of permission.  He also reminded me that  the term “chronic” means ongoing or reoccurring conditions....even through I have controlled conditions (with meds) they are still considered chronic.   The cruise lines need to make their policy very clear......

[sgmn]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:14 PM, Fouremco said:

 

Emirates started testing passengers at the airport last week using a rapid blood test administered by the Dubai Health Authority. 

But they are only flying a very few rescue flights at moment (and cargo). For instance normally 6 airbus a380s into LHR every day, now just 3 passenger flights a week. Not sure if they could still do the volume of tests when flights restart in earnest

[TeeRick]

23 hours ago, Mark_T said:

 

I'm not holding out hopes for an effective vaccine any time soon, and cruising only if you have already had the virus doesn't sound like much of an alternative either...

 

Sooner we give up trying to pretend we can protect everyone and allow herd immunity to build up, the sooner we can get back to whatever passes for 'normal' in the future.

 

It certainly will not be a cost free process, but neither is shutting down most economic activity for long periods either...

That is certainly a loaded discussion!  But only a relevant discussion if herd immunity to this virus and its genetic variations can be proven.

[travelordie]

2 hours ago, llawrence said:

In talking to my doctor, he stated he could not sign a note.  He works under our major hospital group, and is prohibited from giving patients notes with that broad of permission.  The cruise lines need to make their policy very clear......

My physician won't sign because the local medical association thinks it would be unethical for him to sign.  He also won't sign for legal reasons and I don't blame him.

 

The cruise lines are not being helpful.  Some even fail to mention on their website that medical letters are required for those 70 and older.  This seems irresponsible given that those cruise lines belong to CLIA which first proposed that these letters be mandatory.

Edited April 22, 2020 by travelordie

[Mark_T]

53 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

That is certainly a loaded discussion!  But only a relevant discussion if herd immunity to this virus and its genetic variations can be proven.

 

Loaded, possibly, but I'd say it is relevant regardless, as if it turns our that herd immunity isn't relevant, we will still need to consider that remaining in 'lock-down' isn't viable either for a whole lot longer either...

 

Can continue to hope for a vaccine or even an effective treatment regime, but at some point you have to let economic activity function again in whatever passes for 'normal' at that point or some very bad things will start to happen...

 

Pension payments have to come from somewhere for example and it isn't a mystical large pile of cash somewhere...

 

There is still plenty of positive news around about human vaccine trials starting in various places around the world, but I doubt that, even with accelerated testing, we will be able to wait for a proven solution...

 

... let's hope I'm wrong...

 

 

[gotcha3]

1 minute ago, travelordie said:

My physician won't sign because the local medical association thinks it would be unethical for him to sign.  He also won't sign for legal reasons and I don't blame him.

 

The cruise lines are not being helpful.  Some even fail to mention on their website that medical letters are required for those 70 and older.  This seems irresponsible given that those cruise lines belong to CLIA which first proposed that these letters be mandatory.

The fix to this is easy......just go to your lawyer (everyone has one, right?) and ask HIM (her) for a letter saying that you will not under any circumstances sue the above mentioned doctor should you die while on the cruise! Perfect solution,  well at least it would make sense to the absolute IDIOTS who decided age discrimination in this day and age is ok.

[travelordie]

22 minutes ago, gotcha3 said:

The fix to this is easy......just go to your lawyer (everyone has one, right?) and ask HIM (her) for a letter saying that you will not under any circumstances sue the above mentioned doctor should you die while on the cruise! Perfect solution,  well at least it would make sense to the absolute IDIOTS who decided age discrimination in this day and age is ok.

It was the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) who decided age discrimination was OK after determining that only 13% of those who cruise are 70 or older.  I suspect that if the CLIA had calculated what percentage of their total revenue came from those 70 or older, they would have come up with a much higher number.  Older cruisers take far more cruises, take much longer cruises and take more luxury cruises.