Wall Street Journal Article

[stl82]

In-depth investigation of cruise ships and lines as related to Covid-19. Not sure if this is accessible to non-subscribers.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cruise-ships-set-sail-knowing-the-deadly-risk-to-passengers-and-crew-11588346502?mod=hp_lead_pos5

Edited May 1, 2020 by stl82

[Want2Cruise 701]

Only to subscribers.  I was only able to read the first paragraph.

[ECCruise]

That first paragraph tells a lot.

Early in March, the world’s cruise-ship operators had ample evidence to believe their fleet of luxury liners were incubators for the new coronavirus.

Yet they continued to fill cruise ships with passengers, endangering those aboard and helping spread Covid-19 to the U.S. and around the globe, a Wall Street Journal investigation found.

 

 

 

 

TO READ THE FULL STORY

[SFCAcruiser]

Story appears to be in. the public domain now, via MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cruise-ships-set-sail-knowing-the-deadly-risk-to-passengers-and-crew/ar-BB13tPcs

[ECCruise]

Long read.  No real new information, but read in its entirety, pretty damning.

[farawayatsea]

With the cruise industry centred in the US,  the lack of action by the US administration, until it was too late, and constant playing down of the threat,  probably contributed  to the cruise lines not acting earlier. .  

[Georgia_Peaches]

Thanks for posting.  It's so easy for one (the media) to arm chair quarterback after the fact.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Georgia_Peaches

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

  No armchair quarterbacking whatsoever.
 

  The mainstream media was consistently warning in late January, February and March that trouble was en route - they were sneered at by Limbaugh, Fox News and their followers. More of the usual witless carping about "hype from the drive-bys" and "fake news." 
 

   Maybe if that bunch - and CCL's operations staff - had paid better attention, there would have been far fewer dead and sick passengers and crew. And maybe the cruise industry would not have brought upon itself so much public contempt, so many lawsuits or such severe CDC distrust.
    
 

Edited May 1, 2020 by EscapeFromConnecticut

[DaveSJ711]

A similar article appeared in the Washington Post last week.  Several CC folks refused to read the article because Jeff Bezos owns the Post, the newspaper is "biased" against the cruise industry, etc. etc.  Will these same folks refuse to read the WSJ article and, if so, on what basis?  Because Rupert Murdoch owns the WSJ?  (As COVID-19 was spreading in March, the Murdoch clan called off a planned 89th birthday party for RM out of concern for his health.)

[Fouremco]

Forgetting the media for a minute, there were questions being asked right here on the Celebrity board as far back as January, and by early February there were threads largely critical of Celebrity's handling of the situation. By early March, there were many CC members cancelling cruises on their own as Celebrity continued to ignore the obvious. Even now, after two rounds of suspensions, Celebrity chooses to ignore the CDC and offer cruises starting June 12. Defending Celebrity and accusing the media of armchair quarterbacking ignores the reality that Celebrity and the cruise industry at large had the information and simply chose not to take the necessary steps at the appropriate time.

[ECCruise]

I see virtually no evidence of anti-cruise line sentiment here.

What I do see is a reasonably balanced approach.  Many cruise line executives telling their side of the story.

And a litany of facts that some here are anxious to dismiss whenever they are delineated. People got sick. Transmissions were extensive.  People died.  

And I am sick of "'people get sick on airplanes"  "people get sick in hotels"  "people get sick in movie theaters"  There is literally no evidence that those venues caused anywhere near the incidences that were found on cruise ships.  Yes, planes may have transported people from an affected area to another (New York, e.g.) but the infections did not happen ON the plane.

At least the "it's just the FLU" meme has gone the wayside.

A lot of sand around heads on these forums.

[Baron Barracuda]

I'm sure congress will get to the bottom of this.  Note that only CCL has been called on the carpet.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242434451.html

[Loracpin2]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

I see virtually no evidence of anti-cruise line sentiment here.

What I do see is a reasonably balanced approach.  Many cruise line executives telling their side of the story.

And a litany of facts that some here are anxious to dismiss whenever they are delineated. People got sick. Transmissions were extensive.  People died.  

And I am sick of "'people get sick on airplanes"  "people get sick in hotels"  "people get sick in movie theaters"  There is literally no evidence that those venues caused anywhere near the incidences that were found on cruise ships.  Yes, planes may have transported people from an affected area to another (New York, e.g.) but the infections did not happen ON the plane.

At least the "it's just the FLU" meme has gone the wayside.

A lot of sand around heads on these forums.

I completely agree with your post. This was a massive cruise lines screw-up to keep the ships sailing. How, according to one poster, the blame turned into another cover up by a specific news network is just unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

3 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Forgetting the media for a minute, there were questions being asked right here on the Celebrity board as far back as January, and by early February there were threads largely critical of Celebrity's handling of the situation. By early March, there were many CC members cancelling cruises on their own as Celebrity continued to ignore the obvious. Even now, after two rounds of suspensions, Celebrity chooses to ignore the CDC and offer cruises starting June 12. Defending Celebrity and accusing the media of armchair quarterbacking ignores the reality that Celebrity and the cruise industry at large had the information and simply chose not to take the necessary steps at the appropriate time.

 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

  Very much so.

 

   Fortunately, the court system won't be so forgiving. RCI and CCL face all manner of lawsuits over recklessness in the COVID-19 decision-making. Passengers and crew alike are going after them.

    CCL is also now under a Congressional inquiry in the U.S., and a criminal investigation in Australia.

    Fain and Donald Arnold will want to shore up their companies' Legal Affairs budgets. A lot.

[Pushka]

Have no idea what armchair quarterbacking means but I often see it being used as a throwaway line when someone posts a reality timeline on how Covid was "managed" on cruise ships. 

[Fouremco]

5 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Have no idea what armchair quarterbacking means but I often see it being used as a throwaway line when someone posts a reality timeline on how Covid was "managed" on cruise ships. 

 An armchair quarterback is someone who second-guesses a decision someone else has made after the event is finished,  criticizing from the comfort of 20/20 hindsight.

[PTC DAWG]

4 hours ago, Baron Barracuda said:

I'm sure congress will get to the bottom of this.  Note that only CCL has been called on the carpet.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242434451.html

I don’t trust Congress to  do anything..YMMV

[farawayatsea]

10 hours ago, DaveSJ711 said:

A similar article appeared in the Washington Post last week.  Several CC folks refused to read the article because Jeff Bezos owns the Post, the newspaper is "biased" against the cruise industry, etc. etc.  Will these same folks refuse to read the WSJ article and, if so, on what basis?  Because Rupert Murdoch owns the WSJ?  (As COVID-19 was spreading in March, the Murdoch clan called off a planned 89th birthday party for RM out of concern for his health.)

Do the same people who don't read the Washington Post never shop on Amazon?

 

[ABoatNerd]

Trust the congressional investigation is successful and hope it extends into the cruise lines handling of refunds as well as their foreign flagged situation.

 

The cruise industry is overdue for a thorough investigation.

[Ride-The-Waves]

15 hours ago, ECCruise said:

I see virtually no evidence of anti-cruise line sentiment here.

What I do see is a reasonably balanced approach.  Many cruise line executives telling their side of the story.

And a litany of facts that some here are anxious to dismiss whenever they are delineated. People got sick. Transmissions were extensive.  People died.  

And I am sick of "'people get sick on airplanes"  "people get sick in hotels"  "people get sick in movie theaters"  There is literally no evidence that those venues caused anywhere near the incidences that were found on cruise ships.  Yes, planes may have transported people from an affected area to another (New York, e.g.) but the infections did not happen ON the plane.

At least the "it's just the FLU" meme has gone the wayside.

A lot of sand around heads on these forums.

 

I have posted a similar, if not the same, article twice and the CC moderators have deleted the post.  Censorship at its finest. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/cruise-ships-coronavirus/?itid=hp_hp-banner-main_cruisefallout-1020am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

What this shows is not just negligence on the part of cruise lines, but decisions to keep cruising, keep the cash flow coming, when corporate headquarters were well aware of the threats to passengers, crew and locals in ports.

[TeeRick]

16 hours ago, ECCruise said:

I see virtually no evidence of anti-cruise line sentiment here.

What I do see is a reasonably balanced approach.  Many cruise line executives telling their side of the story.

And a litany of facts that some here are anxious to dismiss whenever they are delineated. People got sick. Transmissions were extensive.  People died.  

And I am sick of "'people get sick on airplanes"  "people get sick in hotels"  "people get sick in movie theaters"  There is literally no evidence that those venues caused anywhere near the incidences that were found on cruise ships.  Yes, planes may have transported people from an affected area to another (New York, e.g.) but the infections did not happen ON the plane.

At least the "it's just the FLU" meme has gone the wayside.

A lot of sand around heads on these forums.

ECCruise- I do agree with the statements you make here in general.  But it is far easier to track COVID-19 cases from cruise ships.  So there is a spotlight on cruise ships and the cruise industry - a highly justified spotlight no doubt.  But it is impossible to piece together community transmission from movie theaters, airlines and hotels that you mention with the large number of people moving in and out early on.  And of course asymptomatic transmission at that.  At least right now.  Possibly it will be done in retrospect at some later date.  There are some examples- a Biotech convention in a hotel in Boston lead to a lot of traceable cases.  How are you sure that some infections did not happen ON the plane as you state?  It is no coincidence that East Coast cities like NYC which are airline gateways to the US from Europe have the earliest and highest infection rates.  And virus genetically linked to the European strain of COVID.  Or West Coast cities that are the airline gateways from eastern Asia that had virus of the Wuhan strain circulating as early as mid December?  The cruise industry acted irresponsibly in retrospect and there were and are deaths from cruise ships.  But it is just a part of a terrible overall story, but one easy to focus and draw conclusions.

[ECCruise]

16 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

ECCruise- I do agree with the statements you make here in general.  But it is far easier to track COVID-19 cases from cruise ships.  So there is a spotlight on cruise ships and the cruise industry - a highly justified spotlight no doubt.  But it is impossible to piece together community transmission from movie theaters, airlines and hotels that you mention with the large number of people moving in and out early on.  And of course asymptomatic transmission at that.  At least right now.  Possibly it will be done in retrospect at some later date.  There are some examples- a Biotech convention in a hotel in Boston lead to a lot of traceable cases.  How are you sure that some infections did not happen ON the plane as you state?  It is no coincidence that East Coast cities like NYC which are airline gateways to the US from Europe have the earliest and highest infection rates.  And virus genetically linked to the European strain of COVID.  Or West Coast cities that are the airline gateways from eastern Asia that had virus of the Wuhan strain circulating as early as mid December?  The cruise industry acted irresponsibly in retrospect and there were and are deaths from cruise ships.  But it is just a part of a terrible overall story, but one easy to focus and draw conclusions.

Very well could be.  But we have no tracing.  And you are right, my "didn't happen ON planes is speculation"

What do the countries that HAVE tracing show?  I have not seen anything but there must be some data.

Edited May 2, 2020 by ECCruise

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

I have posted a similar, if not the same, article twice and the CC moderators have deleted the post.  Censorship at its finest. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/cruise-ships-coronavirus/?itid=hp_hp-banner-main_cruisefallout-1020am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

What this shows is not just negligence on the part of cruise lines, but decisions to keep cruising, keep the cash flow coming, when corporate headquarters were well aware of the threats to passengers, crew and locals in ports.

Ride-the-Waves ... yes, multiple stories reach this conclusion.

 

The problem that CCL and RCI apologists overlook is that the HQ greed & ineptitude are precisely why ships are parked with no realistic restart date.

   Imagine if those companies had instead

acted smartly and responsibly. Cruising curtailed around mid-February ... so no

line of ships in April crying at the Coast Guard's gate "help, help, somebody in government fix this crisis that our foreign based business created."

     No nightmare stories of death ships, insanely long quarantines, desperately sick passengers and desperately sick crew. No hideous headlines, no lawsuits, no congressional investigation or Australian police inquiry.

     Under those circumstances, the CDC No Sail Order wouldn't be nearly so strong ... and the distrust of cruise lines wouldn't be nearly so deep.

      When the CC optimists complain about scientists, government and the media, they miss the mark - the people to blame for this crisis in cruising are Fain & the CCL exec team along with their lazy boards. 

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

53 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Very well could be.  But we have no tracing.  And you are right, my "didn't happen ON planes is speculation"

What do the countries that HAVE tracing show?  I have not seen anything but there must be some data.

 

I would think that the fact that working flight attendants and pilots have died of COVID is proof enough that infection CAN happen ON planes.