What level of infection is acceptable

[Spif Barwunkel]

Adding to this topic and certainly to the possibility of increased infection, do cruise lines saturate certain ports with too many cruise ships at one time? Three Caribbean ports in particular stand out. Grand Cayman had 7 ships, Cozumel had 7 ships and Nassau had 5 ships visiting when I was at each location. Such a large influx of people is not pleasant in the best of times. It certainly becomes more worrisome when health issues are a concern. Granted, if the cruise ports reach out the cruise ships will come, all in the name of dollars, not sense.

 

For the health and well-being of all concerned, all parties should recognize the situation and re-think the best way to do business. To an extent, perhaps monetary consideration should give way to more altruistic actions.  

 

      

[WAMarathoner]

2 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Guest Interaction Onboard

• The use of mouth masks is mandatory onboard when walking around.
• Respect for 1.5-meter social distance or compliance with local guidelines with regards to social distancing is guaranteed and clearly communicated onboard.

Onboard Services and facilities

• The temperature of every guest will be measured on a daily basis.
• Services such as massage and hairdresser are not available.
• Facilities with limited space or elevated infection risks such as elevators and public toilets are out of order.
• tems that would be touched by multiple guests will not longer be available such as newspapers and umbrellas.
• No orders can be placed at the bar, all services are based on table services at all times.
• Each cabin will be disinfected twice a day, without the presence of the guest.

Operations

•  Infection control measures will be applied in accordance with WHO guidance. The disembarkation and transfer of the suspected case to an onshore healthcare facility for further assessment and laboratory testing will be arranged as soon as possible in cooperation with the health authorities at the port.

 

 

Some Europeans might be open to these restrictions.  Highly doubtful most Americans would be.

[KsucAts]

2 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

 

Some Europeans might be open to these restrictions.  Highly doubtful most Americans would be.

 

Exactly.  That sure doesn't sound like a vacation to me.  

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

 

Some Europeans might be open to these restrictions.  Highly doubtful most Americans would be.

 

True.  Their market is mainly Europe. 

[Biker19]

40 minutes ago, rimmit said:

No, this is bottoming out. 

A good example of not bottoming out, though a bit suspiciously too smooth, is Belarus (virtually nothing done in response to COVID19):

 

 

[rimmit]

Should have stopped those football matches.

[livingonthebeach]

4 minutes ago, Spif Barwunkel said:

Adding to this topic and certainly to the possibility of increased infection, do cruise lines saturate certain ports with too many cruise ships at one time? Three Caribbean ports in particular stand out. Grand Cayman had 7 ships, Cozumel had 7 ships and Nassau had 5 ships visiting when I was at each location. Such a large influx of people is not pleasant in the best of times. It certainly becomes more worrisome when health issues are a concern. Granted, if the cruise ports reach out the cruise ships will come, all in the name of dollars, not sense.

 

For the health and well-being of all concerned, all parties should recognize the situation and re-think the best way to do business. To an extent, perhaps monetary consideration should give way to more altruistic actions.    

 

Some of the ports have plans to limit the number of cruise ships and passengers that can disembark once cruising resumes.  Key West has a petition to limit passengers to 1,500 per day.   Ships will be sailing at a limited passenger capacity.  We won't likely see so many cruise ships at any port like pre-Covid times anytime soon.

[Jimbo]

14 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Scylla, a German river cruise line resumed river sailings today, June 2nd.  Here are their new protocols (apologize for the length).  It is likely other cruise lines will follow some of these new procedures -- not a fun cruise with all these measures IMHO.  Since most river cruise ships don't have elevators, casinos, theaters and pools - these were not addressed.  The required mask is not going to go over too well with all passengers and neither is the isolation of passengers who have the virus and the dropping off of infected passengers at a port of their choosing. 

 

Guest embarkation

• Scylla will request that its tour operators to investigate the whereabouts and physical health of guests before boarding the ship by means of a questionnaire.
• Scylla will require a pre-boarding statement from the tour operator confirming the validated health checks for all passengers participating in the journey, ensuring all passengers being fit to travel.
• Only registered guests and crew are allowed to enter the ship, after performing safety/health checks such as measurement of body temperature and hand disinfecting.
• In case elevated temperature is measured, the passenger will not be allowed on board until the potential risk of a passenger has been defined by the local health authorities.
• Embarkation is arranged with respect for social distance and adapted procedures minimize the interaction between guests and crew.
• Every step of the check-in procedure is being revised to have a contactless experience.
• The main safety rules will be communicated to guests (verbal and in writing) before entering the ship the first time.
• The use of plastic screens and other protective gear is used for embarkation steps that require interaction.
• Before embarkation, the entire ship, including all cabins, will be cleaned, disinfected and ventilated.

Guest Interaction Onboard

• The use of mouth masks is mandatory onboard when walking around.
• Respect for 1.5-meter social distance or compliance with local guidelines with regards to social distancing is guaranteed and clearly communicated onboard.
• General safety measures such as coughing hygiene are requested and clearly communicated onboard.
• When needed, meals and activities are being arranged in time slots to lower the used capacity of communal areas.
• When spaces do not allow social distancing, one-way movements are being installed and clear routing is defined onboard to exclude crossings without a safe interpersonal distance.
• All meals are served and no buffet services are offered.

Onboard Services and facilities

• A doctor accompanies all journeys to preform health checks with crew and guests for onboard consultations and to assess the potential risks on a frequent basis.
• Quick tests for COVID-19 are available onboard. These can be used by the accompanying doctor in case of suspected risk.
• The temperature of every guest will be measured on a daily basis.
• Clear signage is provided onboard to make guests and crew comply with the defined routing plans.
• Services such as massage and hairdresser are not available.
• Services with a medium risk of spreading bacteria such as luggage handling are being minimized and performed with adapted procedures to limit risks.
• Facilities with limited space or elevated infection risks such as elevators and public toilets are out of order.
• Cleaning staff will be taking additional measures in disinfecting surfaces to minimize the spread of bacteria by cleaning handles, staircases, toilets, armrests, guardrails and other areas, with cleaning solutions adapted to COVID-19 on an even more frequent basis than is usually done.
• Room service offerings will be amended to help limit the number of guests in the restaurant onboard each ship.
• Non-essential items that would be touched by multiple guests will not longer be available such as newspapers and umbrellas.
• No orders can be placed at the bar, all services are based on table services at all times.
• All food and beverage items will be served as individual portions with a minimal need for contact between the person serving and the food/drink item.
• Each cabin will be disinfected twice a day, without the presence of the guest. Cabins are cleaned by the same member of the housekeeping staff every time and all members of the housekeeping staff are obliged to wear a face mask and gloves during their activities.
• All cabins will be provided with a bottle of hand sanitizer.
• Payments can be made by credit card only, except for tips which will be deposited in a tip box.

Operations

• Every crew member will be officially tested on COVID-19 before boarding.
• The crew arrives onboard days before guests to guarantee a quarantine period, after being questioned about their past whereabouts and current and past health situation.
• Procedures are being put in place to ensure social distance between crew members in sleeping, recreational and mutual areas for the crew.
• All crew will be trained to ensure compliance with the COVID-19 protocols.
• The onboard crew is required to wear protective gear during working hours and when interacting with guests.
• If it is determined by the onboard doctor that there is a confirmed or suspected case of COVID-19 disease onboard, an outbreak management plan will be activated. The suspected case will be immediately instructed to wear a medical mask, follow cough etiquette, and practice hand hygiene; the suspected case will be isolated in a predefined isolation cabin with the door closed. Infection control measures will be applied in accordance with WHO guidance. The disembarkation and transfer of the suspected case to an onshore healthcare facility for further assessment and laboratory testing will be arranged as soon as possible in cooperation with the health authorities at the port.

 

No elevators, this wouldn't work on a cruiseship.......

[livingonthebeach]

30 minutes ago, crzndeb said:

Does anybody know if there has been a breakdown of age groups, and how many healthy individuals died in those age groups? 

 

From the CDC website.

[erinsmom03]

31 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

The "young" cases were not healthy.  The media likes to report on those few under-30s that have died.  What they forget to say is that, while they had COVID, they died from leukemia, heart failure, and other diseases.

 

I live in the metro Detroit area and know that isn't true...sorry, I can't accept such a generalization that I know is untrue. A five year old without any underlying condition died from Covid-19, which turned into meningitis.

 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2020/04/19/5-year-old-first-michigan-child-dies-coronavirus/5163094002/

 

And as I am not familiar with all the cases of young people from all over the country, I can't speak of them specifically.  But I am SURE that they didn't all have an underlying condition... Skylar couldn't have been the only one.

[WAMarathoner]

Sad that this little girl's life was cut short.  There will always be outliers.  Perhaps I should've posted a qualifier that "most" died from ...

 

 

[livingonthebeach]

Here's the link to the CDC site that lists co-morbidities in case anyone is interested.  Very few 0-24 year olds died just of the virus itself - from the chart it looks like 114 total. 

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Conditions-contributing-to-deaths-involving-corona/hk9y-quqm/data

 

[Biker19]

4 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

Perhaps I should've posted a qualifier that "most"

The CC crowd is pretty good at finding an exception to some blanket always/never statement - gotta qualify most answers.

[Milwaukee Eight]

48 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

Excepting a "bear" cruise that we were unfortunately stuck on,

What is a “bear” cruise. 😇

 

Asking for a friend 

[livingonthebeach]

10 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

What is a “bear” cruise. 😇

 

Asking for a friend 

 

 

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

 

I was thinking maybe an Alaska Cruise???  😇

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

I was thinking maybe an Alaska Cruise???  😇

 

Wouldn't go on that cruise as long as this guy is still there. 

 

[Hoopster95]

Re children being resilient to infection

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-teachers-raising-alarm-about-being-back-in-class-1.5592171

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/twelve-children-infected-with-covid-19-in-quebecs-first-daycare-outbreak

 

There's no shadow of a doubt that if you are stuck on land today in a old-age care home, those have been a massive percentage of Covid deaths.

 

May I gently offer that the largest percentage of population on cruise ships are the same elderly with underlying health issues.... and that cruise ships are very much like old age homes, enclosed "homes" which you cannot get off of easily? Therefore cruise ships, like old-age homes, could possibly be a very high death rate.... again (Zaandam, Coral & Diamond P, etc etc)

 

The above is what the general public feel, not what is felt by highly biased cruise "crack" addicts as we are here on Cruise Critic. The general public non-cruise nut does not want to be on the very first cruise ship... they think those addicts are totally nuts and feel they will get what they deserve. Just go ask your family and friends who are not "crack" cruise addicts how they feel about cruisers and cruise ships. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Hoopster95

[partiamo]

I agree. While it still exists somewhere, it’s only a matter of time until a case appears on a cruise ship. For me the case rate is less important than what the procedures are to deal with it. I did a lift and shift to see how the situation develops. Our next cruise is now June 2021. We will not be cruising if a positive test during the cruise results in:

- being left in a random port at RC’s whim

- running the risk of being quarantined onboard past the end of the cruise

- the possibility of a country denying you access to medical care (as happened a few months ago) or denied exit from the ship. 
 

The industry has to have a clear and transparent process for dealing with positive results which caters to the needs of the infected along with everyone else.

I thank everyone for their comments.  I had not thought about the above as part of the protocols which cruise lines should include.  But, now I will be looking for these to be included.  I note that the protocols on the river cruise did not mention these things.

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, partiamo said:

I thank everyone for their comments.  I had not thought about the above as part of the protocols which cruise lines should include.  But, now I will be looking for these to be included.  I note that the protocols on the river cruise did not mention these things.

 

It's in the last paragraph:

If it is determined by the onboard doctor that there is a confirmed or suspected case of COVID-19 disease onboard, an outbreak management plan will be activated. The suspected case will be immediately instructed to wear a medical mask, follow cough etiquette, and practice hand hygiene; the suspected case will be isolated in a predefined isolation cabin with the door closed. Infection control measures will be applied in accordance with WHO guidance. The disembarkation and transfer of the suspected case to an onshore healthcare facility for further assessment and laboratory testing will be arranged as soon as possible in cooperation with the health authorities at the port.

[ONECRUISER]

3 hours ago, KsucAts said:

 

What if we never get to zero?  (I am beginning to believe that is very possible.)

Agree, many other outbreaks/Diseases never have Vaccine or are gone. Some just burnout after while

[KsucAts]

3 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Agree, many other outbreaks/Diseases never have Vaccine or are gone. Some just burnout after while

 

I think once antibody tests are readily available everywhere, we will realize that we are closer to herd immunity than most thought and probably took the wrong approach (by locking everything down instead of just protecting the vulnerable).  

[babydrum]

2 hours ago, JT1962 said:

Our concern is more about how it will be handled onboard rather than the number of cases. If they still quarantine everyone on the ship for 2 weeks or more if there is one positive case onboard, then we will not cruise again until Covid-19 is no longer an issue or they no longer quarantine the entire ship. We aren’t as worried about getting the virus as we are being stranded on the ship away from home, work, etc. because someone else tested positive.

Yeah, its the opposite of how quarantines used to work.  They used to quarantine the person who had the virus, not the people who didn't. I understand the longer incubation time and all but that is a game changer for me.  I wouldn't want to be stuck in my cabin because of someone else so if they are still doing that, I'll have to cancel my November cruise.

[d9704011]

8 minutes ago, babydrum said:

Yeah, its the opposite of how quarantines used to work.  They used to quarantine the person who had the virus, not the people who didn't. I understand the longer incubation time and all but that is a game changer for me.  I wouldn't want to be stuck in my cabin because of someone else so if they are still doing that, I'll have to cancel my November cruise.

Not exactly..... here is an excerpt from the CDC website:

 

• Quarantine separates and restricts the movement of people who were exposed to a contagious disease to see if they become sick.

[cruisequeen4ever]

For years, people have said that on any given sailing, there’s at least one case of noro or some such illness. Life goes on normally onboard. If there could be one infection of Covid onboard without impacting everyone else, then I’d feel fine being onboard. It’s how easily it’s spread that scares me. If they could isolate and disembark a sick pax immediately, maybe the rest onboard could continue on. You’ve got those people who don’t want their trip ruined, though, and they plow on, all the while infecting those around them. Temperature checks would cut down on that, but you can be sick with contagious symptoms and not have a fever. 
 

It was interesting reading about the European river boat protocol. I thought their idea of expanding room service to make it more desirable was a good idea. We avoid elevators anyway because of germs and to combat weight gain onboard, but many need or want the elevator. 
 

I hope cruise lines get together and figure out an effective protocol and soon, though, because I really miss cruising!!