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4 hours ago, clo said:

Oh, lordy, yes. Here in Reno - and I'm guessing everywhere else - there are groups who for instance don't want more housing and they think the city council should turn down any permit requests...because they don't want it. Even though with the current number of homes for sale and the rate at which they're selling, we only have two weeks of "inventory." Thank you for, as usual, making your point so well.

Of course, “inventory” generally follows demand.  As the prices potential buyers are willing to pay go up, the number of owners willing to sell will also go up.   Longer term, unmet demand will (after some approval and construction delay) also feed inventory.  Yes, there are “groups” who want to freeze construction  — my town in CT was long known as a community where the last person to move into it was virtually certain to want to be the last person to move into it.

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6 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I am curious why the deaths of over half a million people seem to not bother certain people, yet at other times in our history, the American public can be very strongly swayed by much lower numbers -- for example, the number of people who died in the Pearl Harbor attack or on 9/11. 

 

More than half a million deaths is too many deaths for a first-world country, whatever the relevant percentage is.

 

I am curious what supports a view that is contrary to this? 

 

I believe people were saddened by those events for multiple reasons. I think an actual attack on our country hits differently. However, it also sprung up an emotional plea that needed "protection". There are quite a bit of people who do not agree with the after-effects for "safety". Too much happens in the name of fear.

 

6 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

But sometimes the politician's job is to distinguish between issues where "what the people want" is not necessarily in their best interest. At times in our past there were huge numbers of people opposed to smoking bans and restrictions. Not to mention significant industries (e.g., tobacco industry) where people would lose jobs -- far higher numbers of people than those in the US who support the cruise industry).

 

And yet, we moved forward with the science, in order to prevent a certain number of preventable deaths. 

 

Granted, our Representatives have a fairly narrow brief (e.g., are not traditionally supposed to take the broader view of a Senator or President).  But at the same time, it was always my understanding that even a Representative was supposed to make decisions based on the good of his or her entire electorate, not just those who voted FOR him or her....

 

 

 

The most ironic thing about the discussion is looking out for "best interests" when it is in most people's best interests to make better choices in life. We are so far from that, it isn't funny. That is why we are so in debt. We seek to pander, find quick fixes, and any other way out that sounds good to the average, selfish, voter. We selectively ignore data from the "experts" where it is inconvenient. Don't be obese, exercise often, get vitamin D, don't smoke, and on and on. No politician can campaign on such things. Instead it is "vote for me because I have a plan to stop COVID". Meanwhile, the plan is what we had all along. It's far easier to blame the lifestyle of those at the beach vs those on the couch.

 

2 hours ago, slidergirl said:

I get very, very upset when someone brings up the "0.03%" deal.  That is death.  Yes, it's horrific.  The 550,000 number of deaths in the US isn't just to stir up emotions.  Look at it compared to annual flu deaths - many times more.  With masking and other measures in place, we most likely prevented more deaths.  BUT, the 0.03% does not include the thousands of us who are living with "long haul" complications that can last the rest of our lives.  Serious heart issues, damaged lungs, now we're diabetic, blood clots.  I don't think anyone wants to live with this, so just the fact that we had COVID and didn't die isn't exactly a success story to be ignored in the discussion about what happens when you get COVID.  It absolutely is NOT black and white.   Public health is not a popular concept, especially in the US, IMHO.  It's more of a "what's in it for me" concept.  My thought is that if everyone took masking and distancing and hand sanitation seriously, we in the US wouldn't have to worry about more lockdowns.  But, it's the unfortunate group who wants it all now that is causing the problems.  Get the da*n vaccinations and keep up the public health procedures and things will eventually get better - if we don't do this, it's not going to end.  

 

Let me be clear, 550,000 deaths are bad. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything. But still, that is not the argument that says cruising needs to be halted, because frankly, the science isn't there. That is an emotional argument.

 

Back on the numbers. Where were you when tens of thousands died from flu each year? A disease we "understood". What about other "controllable deaths"? Are those numbers not large enough to panic, or are you going to formulate some new hindsight vision because this is what people say now? Death is unfortunately a part of life. With almost 8 billion people on the planet, you will find a lot that is disturbing. Hunger, murder, poor health. accidents, disease, and on and on. Living in fear and hoping for protection aren't new and have not, nor will ever be the fix. 

 

There are PLENTY of ways to responsibly start cruising. We already see it happened, but that "science" is not approved. 550,000 is not an argument for cruising. The points of the numbers argument is to build on just how often we take things to such monumental scale. This happened to one person, therefore hundreds of millions need to change. No. Just no.

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2 hours ago, mom says said:

Does it matter where they are from? Does it even matter whether or not they are students? It remains that large numbers of mainly young people were/are congregating in close quarters and not practicing safety measures. If that doesn't foster a superspread and spike in cases, it will be a miracle. It's the lack of compliance with public health measures that is dragging this pandemic out.

Indeed it does matter.  People are pointing fingers without evidence.  A month ago people in Texas were called "neanderthals" because of their behavior.  Guess what happened there?  Cases went down.  Hospitalizations went down.  Deaths went down.  During this time guess what region cases started spiking in?  The locked up, masked up, northeast!

There is little evidence spring breakers are driving any kind of spread in the US.  

https://covidactnow.org/share/31074/?redirectTo=%2Fcompare%2F31074&s=1716639

 

 

map.jpg

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1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

 

I believe people were saddened by those events for multiple reasons. I think an actual attack on our country hits differently. However, it also sprung up an emotional plea that needed "protection". There are quite a bit of people who do not agree with the after-effects for "safety". Too much happens in the name of fear.

 

 

The most ironic thing about the discussion is looking out for "best interests" when it is in most people's best interests to make better choices in life. We are so far from that, it isn't funny. That is why we are so in debt. We seek to pander, find quick fixes, and any other way out that sounds good to the average, selfish, voter. We selectively ignore data from the "experts" where it is inconvenient. Don't be obese, exercise often, get vitamin D, don't smoke, and on and on. No politician can campaign on such things. Instead it is "vote for me because I have a plan to stop COVID". Meanwhile, the plan is what we had all along. It's far easier to blame the lifestyle of those at the beach vs those on the couch.

 

 

Let me be clear, 550,000 deaths are bad. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything. But still, that is not the argument that says cruising needs to be halted, because frankly, the science isn't there. That is an emotional argument.

 

Back on the numbers. Where were you when tens of thousands died from flu each year? A disease we "understood". What about other "controllable deaths"? Are those numbers not large enough to panic, or are you going to formulate some new hindsight vision because this is what people say now? Death is unfortunately a part of life. With almost 8 billion people on the planet, you will find a lot that is disturbing. Hunger, murder, poor health. accidents, disease, and on and on. Living in fear and hoping for protection aren't new and have not, nor will ever be the fix. 

 

There are PLENTY of ways to responsibly start cruising. We already see it happened, but that "science" is not approved. 550,000 is not an argument for cruising. The points of the numbers argument is to build on just how often we take things to such monumental scale. This happened to one person, therefore hundreds of millions need to change. No. Just no.

I was here.  I always got my flu shot.  I do not take vacations during flu season.   Now that we know that masking during flu season (it was LOW this year), I may mask when I go out next flu season.   

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1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

There are PLENTY of ways to responsibly start cruising. We already see it happened, but that "science" is not approved. 550,000 is not an argument for cruising. The points of the numbers argument is to build on just how often we take things to such monumental scale. This happened to one person, therefore hundreds of millions need to change. No. Just no.

 

Cruising is superfluous🙄. The world has gone on just fine without it. It is a nice thing to have but at the end of the day it is an unnecessary activity so it is hard to justify risking people's health on unnecessary activities. If a state or country has become overly reliant on one industry for their economy that is their government's fault for not diversifying their economy so it would be more robust in times of crisis. It is not everyone's else's responsibility to make up for their government's complacency. 

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1 hour ago, jfunk138 said:

Indeed it does matter.  People are pointing fingers without evidence.  A month ago people in Texas were called "neanderthals" because of their behavior.  Guess what happened there?  Cases went down.  Hospitalizations went down.  Deaths went down.  During this time guess what region cases started spiking in?  The locked up, masked up, northeast!

There is little evidence spring breakers are driving any kind of spread in the US.  

https://covidactnow.org/share/31074/?redirectTo=%2Fcompare%2F31074&s=1716639

 

 

map.jpg

 

Yet all you hear is Florida is SURGING! 

 

22 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Cruising is superfluous🙄. The world has gone on just fine without it. It is a nice thing to have but at the end of the day it is an unnecessary activity so it is hard to justify risking people's health on unnecessary activities. If a state or country has become overly reliant on one industry for their economy that is their government's fault for not diversifying their economy so it would be more robust in times of crisis. It is not everyone's else's responsibility to make up for their government's complacency. 

 

Please redirect your lecture towards the uber drives, longshoremen, local suppliers, hotels, cruise ship employees, corporate employees, restaurants, island businesses, etc etc. Please educate them how unnecessary their employment is

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2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

Let me be clear, 550,000 deaths are bad. I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything. But still, that is not the argument that says cruising needs to be halted, because frankly, the science isn't there. That is an emotional argument.

 

Back on the numbers. Where were you when tens of thousands died from flu each year? A disease we "understood". What about other "controllable deaths"? Are those numbers not large enough to panic, or are you going to formulate some new hindsight vision because this is what people say now? Death is unfortunately a part of life. With almost 8 billion people on the planet, you will find a lot that is disturbing. Hunger, murder, poor health. accidents, disease, and on and on. Living in fear and hoping for protection aren't new and have not, nor will ever be the fix. 

 

I appreciate you answering my queries. As someone whose career has been entwined in the medical/scientific world, I guess my point of view is just radically different. A life is something worth saving, a death is worth preventing if at all possible. Half a million deaths is unconscionable to me when we could have done much more and sooner to prevent them. Vaccines have been developed in record time, but will enough people take them? 

 

I take the long view and I worry about others -- I guess that's not so common.

 

It is a shame that the American public seems to feel that we have stood still in regard to other diseases, because it is just not true. We have a vaccine for the seasonal flu (which is significantly LESS deadly than COVID) and we are striving to make it more effective. I, for one, get my flu shot every year.  We have significantly lowered deaths from such "lifestyle" diseases as Type 2 diabetes, heart disease, autmobile accidents and some cancers by a combination of public education and medications that would once have been regarded as near-miracles but now are largely taken for granted.

 

We are not "living in fear and hoping for protection".  We are actively working toward a better world where fewer people have to face death as a result of hunger, murder, poor health. accidents, disease, and on and on.

 

As I posted in another thread recently, it's amazing how much has changed in a few short years. Not even a decade ago the CDC was widely lauded for the role they played in border control issues related to Ebola. No one questioned their scope then. 

 

But because COVID has been continually belittled, the same activities to keep the public safe and healthy are now being widely reviled. 

 

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The comments by Dr. Brix and the Surgeon General during the previous Administration that I have read/heard in recent days are most disturbing.  Lies about the testing according to the Surgeon General; Dr. Brix felt she needed to "go on the road" to attempt to inform the public because her comments from the podium in the White House Press Briefing Room were not acceptable to "someone" in the Adminsitration; she believes hundreds of thousands of Americans were lost because of what we have experienced.  

 

The "poison" generated during 2020 infects the thinking of those in 2021 as to whether some will accept the vaccine or not.  "The vaccine causes fetuses to be aborted".  That's the most recent ridiculous statement that I have heard within the last 24 hours.  Coming from a woman who is a staunch pro-life supporter, what do you think her position is on whether she will accept the vaccine?

 

The unscientific nonsense that is being spread along with the inappropriate social behavior of some---and let's start calling such behavior for what it is.  Totally inappropriate social behavior that has impacts on all of us, our ability to cruise/travel again, and the cruise/hospitality/leisure industry.  

 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

Please redirect your lecture towards the uber drives, longshoremen, local suppliers, hotels, cruise ship employees, corporate employees, restaurants, island businesses, etc etc. Please educate them how unnecessary their employment is

 

But that is my point. If everyone is so heavily reliant on the cruise industry for employment than that is the fault of the government for not diversifying their economy. The reality is we can live without cruising so no one is obligated to save an industry we don't need. You could argue the same thing about soft drinks or nigh clubs. They are things we don't need, the world would go on fine without them but if your whole economy is wrapped around one industry that isn't the fault of COVID19 or COVID reduction practices it is the fault of the government assuming the good times will go on forever. 

Edited by ilikeanswers
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18 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Not even a decade ago the CDC was widely lauded for the role they played in border control issues related to Ebola. No one questioned their scope then. 

 

But because COVID has been continually belittled, the same activities to keep the public safe and healthy are now being widely reviled. 

 

 

That has happened because of some decisions made in a house painted white in the District of Columbia during the Winter/Spring of 2020.  

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3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

I believe people were saddened by those events for multiple reasons. I think an actual attack on our country hits differently. However, it also sprung up an emotional plea that needed "protection". There are quite a bit of people who do not agree with the after-effects for "safety". Too much happens in the name of fear.

 

...

Back on the numbers. Where were you when tens of thousands died from flu each year? A disease we "understood". ...

Do not try to trivialize COVID by comparing it with the flu.  Those “...tens of thousands...” two or three “tens”  (usually twenty to thirty thousand -  with one year in the past sixty approaching sixty thousand) are in no way comparable to the 55 “...tens of of thousands...” SO FAR in this pandemic.

 

And the flu was somewhat “understood” - but a majority of the US population did not get the vaccines which were available.

 

This is a different situation - people failing to understand that are perpetuating the toll. 

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1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

But that is my point. If everyone is so heavily reliant on the cruise industry for employment than that is the fault of the government for not diversifying their economy. The reality is we can live without cruising so no one is obligated to save an industry we don't need. You could argue the same thing about soft drinks or nigh clubs. They are things we don't need, the world would go on fine without them but if your whole economy is wrapped around one industry that isn't the fault of COVID19 or COVID reduction practices it is the fault of the government assuming the good times will go on forever. 

 

I totally disagree with you.  First of all, Florida is very diversified.  Agriculture, international trade, and aerospace are huge industries in Florida.  However, Florida's number 1 industry is tourism, and rightfully so.  It generates over 100 billion dollars annually.  It's a big reason why residents don't have to pay a state income tax and sales tax remains relatively low.  Floridians need tourism, which includes cruising, for their economy to continue thriving it way it does.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

I totally disagree with you.  First of all, Florida is very diversified.  Agriculture, international trade, and aerospace are huge industries in Florida.  However, Florida's number 1 industry is tourism, and rightfully so.  It generates over 100 billion dollars annually.  It's a big reason why residents don't have to pay a state income tax and sales tax remains relatively low.  Floridians need tourism, which includes cruising, for their economy to continue thriving it way it does.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 


The workers who depend on cruise tourism, (not the cruise lines) should be getting COVID relief funds until cruising is safe again. I don’t think it is safe to cruise yet and I don’t think cruises should be restarted because those workers are suffering. Those workers should get help until cruises restart. 
 

I don’t believe people posting here about the effect on workers in the cruise sector as a reason to restart cruises care about those workers. They want to cruise and don’t care about the consequences.  

Edited by Charles4515
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3 hours ago, jfunk138 said:

A month ago people in Texas were called "neanderthals" because of their behavior.  Guess what happened there?  Cases went down.  Hospitalizations went down.  Deaths went down.

 

That's just incredibly weak reasoning.  We can all only wish that taking off masks and removing restrictions causes the virus to go away.

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24 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

I totally disagree with you.  First of all, Florida is very diversified.  Agriculture, international trade, and aerospace are huge industries in Florida.  However, Florida's number 1 industry is tourism, and rightfully so.  It generates over 100 billion dollars annually.  It's a big reason why residents don't have to pay a state income tax and sales tax remains relatively low.  Floridians need tourism, which includes cruising, for their economy to continue thriving it way it does.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

There is something wrong if you plan on going to court and suing over it. If it is a death knell to the Florida economy then they are clearly too heavily reliant on one industry. The reality is there are many industries that end for whatever reason especially when they are not necessities and reliant on the trends of people's whims. Every government should be planning for a bust as much as a boom. 

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Just now, jtwind said:

 

That's just incredibly weak reasoning.  We can all only wish that taking off masks and removing restrictions causes the virus to go away.

So far the following states have rolled back mask requirements and subsequently saw lower case, hospization and death numbers:  Florida, North Dakota, Iowa, Mississippi, and Texas.  If just 1 you could say it's a fluke, but 5 states all have the same result.  

 

Just because you don't like the result or it doesn't match your intuition, doesn't make it weak.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

So far the following states have rolled back mask requirements and subsequently saw lower case, hospization and death numbers:  Florida, North Dakota, Iowa, Mississippi, and Texas.  If just 1 you could say it's a fluke, but 5 states all have the same result.  

 

Just because you don't like the result or it doesn't match your intuition, doesn't make it weak.

Let's look at the data. in fact cases have been increasing in four of the five states you've mentioned:

 Florida's cases and deaths are actually increasing, not decreasing as you claim:  

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/03/29/florida-records-3374-coronavirus-cases-72-deaths-monday/

"The weekly coronavirus case average increased to about 5,167 cases announced per day. The average has been increasing for the past nine days."

"The weekly death average increased to about 69 people announced dead per day."

 

In Texas, the 7 day average number of cases, which had been declining, leveled out and has now started to increase (see the graphs at the top of the page):

 https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ed483ecd702b4298ab01e8b9cafc8b83

 

In Iowa the average daily number of COVID-19 cases is up 34% versus a week ago:

https://www.kcrg.com/2021/03/28/average-daily-covid-19-cases-in-iowa-up-nearly-34-compared-to-a-week-ago/

"The seven-day rolling average of newly-reported cases of the coronavirus is 560.6 per day. This is the highest daily average since February 17′s 574.6 per day. The change since last Sunday’s seven-day rolling average of 418.7 shows a 33.8% increase in daily cases. This is the largest change in a week since January 9, when the rate of average daily cases increased by 35.5% following the holiday-related lull in testing around New Year’s."

 

In North Dakota the14 day change in cases is up 61% :

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/north-dakota-coronavirus-cases.html

 

 

Edited by njhorseman
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6 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Let's look at the data. in fact cases have been increasing in four of the five states you've mentioned:

 Florida's cases and deaths are actually increasing, not decreasing as you claim:  

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/03/29/florida-records-3374-coronavirus-cases-72-deaths-monday/

"The weekly coronavirus case average increased to about 5,167 cases announced per day. The average has been increasing for the past nine days."

"The weekly death average increased to about 69 people announced dead per day."

 

In Texas, the 7 day average number of cases, which had been declining, leveled out and has now started to increase (see the graphs at the top of the page):

 https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ed483ecd702b4298ab01e8b9cafc8b83

 

In Iowa the average daily number of COVID-19 cases is up 34% versus a week ago:

https://www.kcrg.com/2021/03/28/average-daily-covid-19-cases-in-iowa-up-nearly-34-compared-to-a-week-ago/

"The seven-day rolling average of newly-reported cases of the coronavirus is 560.6 per day. This is the highest daily average since February 17′s 574.6 per day. The change since last Sunday’s seven-day rolling average of 418.7 shows a 33.8% increase in daily cases. This is the largest change in a week since January 9, when the rate of average daily cases increased by 35.5% following the holiday-related lull in testing around New Year’s."

 

In North Dakota the14 day change in cases is up 61% :

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/north-dakota-coronavirus-cases.html

 

 

Texas mask mandate ended March 2, 7 day average cases 25.0/100k -> March 30: 14.1/100k

Iowa mask mandate ended Feb 10, 7 day averages cases 21.5/100k -> March 30: 18.1/100k

North Dakota mandate ended Jan 15, 7 day average cases 22.0/100k -> March 30:  17.6/100k

I can't find the date when Florida lifted their mandate because they never had one, so I'm not sure when the comparison should begin.

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51 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

So far the following states have rolled back mask requirements and subsequently saw lower case, hospization and death numbers:  Florida, North Dakota, Iowa, Mississippi, and Texas.  If just 1 you could say it's a fluke, but 5 states all have the same result.  

 

Just because you don't like the result or it doesn't match your intuition, doesn't make it weak.

 

Yeah.  One day, my mother's computer stopped working.  She shut off the power and watched an episode of Judge Judy.  When she powered back up, the computer started working right.  So now, when she has issues, she shuts the power down, watches an episode of Judge Judy, and restarts the computer.  Works almost every time.  (The only problem is that she may have to wait quite a while to get to watch a Judge Judy episode.  Especially if she has computer problems on a weekend.)  So I know EXACTLY where you're coming from.

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Just now, jtwind said:

 

Yeah.  One day, my mother's computer stopped working.  She shut off the power and watched an episode of Judge Judy.  When she powered back up, the computer started working right.  So now, when she has issues, she shuts the power down, watches an episode of Judge Judy, and restarts the computer.  Works almost every time.  (The only problem is that she may have to wait quite a while to get to watch a Judge Judy episode.  Especially if she has computer problems on a weekend.)  So I know EXACTLY where you're coming from.

Ever called tech support?  What's the first action they recommend?  "Have you tried rebooting?"

They ask this question first, because it works.

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1 hour ago, jfunk138 said:

So far the following states have rolled back mask requirements and subsequently saw lower case, hospization and death numbers:  Florida, North Dakota, Iowa, Mississippi, and Texas.  If just 1 you could say it's a fluke, but 5 states all have the same result.  

 

Just because you don't like the result or it doesn't match your intuition, doesn't make it weak.

I saw a tv show in which KFCs in the area started closing up.  Around the same time, medical marijuana was legalized.  A bunch of people figured out that they could actually give themselves a mild form of cancer that would then allow them to get the medical marijuana.  Someone noticed an increase in cancer in the area.  Of course, the conclusion was that eating KFC prevents cancer.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Ever called tech support?  What's the first action they recommend?  "Have you tried rebooting?"

They ask this question first, because it works.

See, that's where you got it wrong.  You HAVE to watch an episode of Judge Judy.

Edited by jtwind
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11 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Texas mask mandate ended March 2, 7 day average cases 25.0/100k -> March 30: 14.1/100k

 

The real reason cases in Texas went down during that period was Spring Break.  We need more Spring Breaks!

 

OK.  I'll stop.

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