Will HAL ever have mega ships?

[AmazedByCruising]

19 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

Never say never! Depends on what the market dictates in the future

Indeed.

 

11 hours ago, Alphen said:

I cannot comment with direct info, only quoting a fellow Platinum cruiser that had recently spoken to Mr. Ashford, who was quoted that the new Pinnacle class would be the largest in the fleet and they would not go above that. He was also quoted there would be a new Prinsendam, either new build or one that is already on the market.

 

The old Prinsendam just made its last voyage, without a new one ready. That doesn't seem to be very high on the priority list. Instead, bigger ships have been added to the fleet in recent years. Not mega ships, but the direction for now is at least towards ever bigger ships.

[cat shepard]

“Ever” is a very long time. 

 

Perhaps they will launch a fleet of mega ships, when they cruise the galaxy and beyond.

[saltshell]

Mega ships? God I hope not 

[CptBoatface]

2 hours ago, cat shepard said:

“Ever” is a very long time. 

 

Perhaps they will launch a fleet of mega ships, when they cruise the galaxy and beyond.

The Alpha Centauri itinerary sounds great. Totally booking that one

[AL3XCruise]

2 hours ago, cat shepard said:

“Ever” is a very long time. 

 

Exactly.  And what will the definition of megaship be in 20 years?

 

Pinnacle class ships would probably have been considered mega-ships until at least the later 1990s when 100,000 GT+ vessels really started becoming prevalent.  Before that anything over 70K or 80K was seen as a megaship.

 

As long as economies of scale remain as they are now, ships will continue to trend larger.  The exceptions is if the size sufficiently interferes with the product the company is offering.  Of course, some folks seem to think HAL has already crossed that threshold with the Pinnacle class.  I assume HAL will be monitoring customer perceptions closely to see if their business model will work with a bigger ship.

 

There is also the factor the Carnival likes using a single design across multiple brands.  While they could build a HAL specific ship, it is also possible the size of a Post-pinnacle ship may be dictated by the minimum size acceptable to other lines.  That would probably put additional pressure on them for a larger ship.  

 

Finally, HAL has trended consistently larger for the last two decades, but at a pace that lags behind other lines.  Given that, I think it is likely that by the time a 150,000GT+ HAL ship sails, it will not be considered a megaship.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, cat shepard said:

“Ever” is a very long time. 

 

Perhaps they will launch a fleet of mega ships, when they cruise the galaxy and beyond.

And they will name the first ship doing this itinerary the HAL Enterprise.

[sail7seas]

11 hours ago, cat shepard said:

“Ever” is a very long time. 

 

Perhaps they will launch a fleet of mega ships, when they cruise the galaxy and beyond.

 

 

Sadly..  Maybe is the best answer any of us really have.

 

 

I hope k'dam and Nieuw Stat are  the biggest ships  HAL will add to the fleet.

[Roz]

A bigger ship doesn't necessarily mean it has to have go-karts and roller coasters. 😊  My concern is the larger the ship, the fewer ports it can dock at.  If you look at the itineraries for the mega ships, they are boring, boring, boring.  

 

Roz

[drowelf]

On 7/2/2019 at 6:47 AM, chengkp75 said:

As for redesigning the lifeboats, that will take a long, hard look by corporate, as the only way to do this is to return to the older style "gravity davits" where the boats are stored inboard and a deck above the promenade, and this takes away a full deck of balcony cabins, with their price advantage, and is why the lines went to the "sliding" davits in the first place.  It also reduces revenue generating space inside the ship.

Isn't the new lifeboat position due to some changes in the regulations that came about after the Concordia sinking? 

 

As for the mega ships of other lines, I've never subscribed to the 'Ship as the Destination', which seems to be the business model they are working under. I prefer that the 'ship be what transports me to my destinations'. Its all about keeping you onboard and spending $$$. I'm sure that if they could figure out how to make it work, they would just leave port, cruise around, visit their private islands, cruise some more and return port. That way the only $$$ you spend go into their coffers. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, drowelf said:

Isn't the new lifeboat position due to some changes in the regulations that came about after the Concordia sinking? 

 

 

This appears to be a common myth on CC.  There were no regulations changed as a result of the Concordia, with the exception of changing the required muster drill time.  Oasis, for example, was built in 2007 with sliding davits, while Concordia did not sink until 2012.  The larger lifeboats (more than 150 person) are difficult to have on the older gravity davits, so the sliding davits are preferred for them.  In most cases, ships have gone to the sliding davits as this allows greater revenue generating space on the deck above the boats, and allows for a full additional deck of balconies.  Sliding davits, and even a fixed outboard davit, have been around for decades, and the cruise lines only adopted them when it was seen to be to their advantage.

[iancal]

Seems to me that HAL is abandoning the small ship market and turning their share over to the truly premium and luxury lines.

 

Nothing wrong with their management team and the management of their parent company deciding that this is in the best interests of their shareholders.  It i s just business.

 

Hopefully they will develop the marketing direction and the customer facing IT infrastructure to support and enhance this direction.  These appear to be non existent at the moment.

Edited July 3, 2019 by iancal

[broberts]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And they will name the first ship doing this itinerary the HAL Enterprise.

 

Perhaps Ondernemingdam. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by broberts

[Hawaiidan]

They already do.... and if you look at the new builds   for 2900-3000+   thats  the trend

I consider  1200- 1900 as large  2000-2400  extra large and 2500+ as mega

I expect they will divest themselves with anything under 2000

[Hawaiidan]

2 hours ago, drowelf said:

Isn't the new lifeboat position due to some changes in the regulations that came about after the Concordia sinking? 

 

As for the mega ships of other lines, I've never subscribed to the 'Ship as the Destination', which seems to be the business model they are working under. I prefer that the 'ship be what transports me to my destinations'. Its all about keeping you onboard and spending $$$. I'm sure that if they could figure out how to make it work, they would just leave port, cruise around, visit their private islands, cruise some more and return port. That way the only $$$ you spend go into their coffers. 

You  got it 100% correct.... why let all those thousands go ashore at some port and spend $$$$ that they could be spending on the ship !!!   Keep e'm on board as long as possible  They are already doing  this

[Hawaiidan]

12 hours ago, AL3XCruise said:

 

Exactly.  And what will the definition of megaship be in 20 years?

 

Pinnacle class ships would probably have been considered mega-ships until at least the later 1990s when 100,000 GT+ vessels really started becoming prevalent.  Before that anything over 70K or 80K was seen as a megaship.

 

As long as economies of scale remain as they are now, ships will continue to trend larger.  The exceptions is if the size sufficiently interferes with the product the company is offering.  Of course, some folks seem to think HAL has already crossed that threshold with the Pinnacle class.  I assume HAL will be monitoring customer perceptions closely to see if their business model will work with a bigger ship.

 

There is also the factor the Carnival likes using a single design across multiple brands.  While they could build a HAL specific ship, it is also possible the size of a Post-pinnacle ship may be dictated by the minimum size acceptable to other lines.  That would probably put additional pressure on them for a larger ship.  

 

Finally, HAL has trended consistently larger for the last two decades, but at a pace that lags behind other lines.  Given that, I think it is likely that by the time a 150,000GT+ HAL ship sails, it will not be considered a megaship.

That will  also be the time  the Navy's 98,000 ton aircraft carriers are declared  Mid-size  aircraft carriers.

The new ships are designed  with every  amusement park, shopping mall's  and lawns.. in mind  to allure passengers who want a food orgy that  they heard is on  cruise ships but   for people who dont want to feel they are on a ship...

[sammiedawg]

Size of the ship is less important than space per passenger, food, service and ship comfort.  

I’ve stayed out of the recent Prinsendam  threads but our experience was underwhelming because food, service, weird ship layout , ship comfort and condition were subpar to premium and luxury lines we have sailed.

There are a number of cruise lines who will keep smaller ships.

 I don’t get the handwringing over Prinsendam leaving the fleet.  Look around and you will find better.  It will be more expensive but you get what you pay for.  

[AL3XCruise]

1 hour ago, Hawaiidan said:

That will  also be the time  the Navy's 98,000 ton aircraft carriers are declared  Mid-size  aircraft carriers.

 

Probably true, though carriers have grown at a much slower rate than cruise ships.  They got bigger to support jets, but growth since the 50s has been modest.  As you point out, there are a lot of new space hogging amenities that cruise lines now want to offer that have changed the industry.  In addition, economies of scale matter a lot more to a cruise line than the military.  And while livability has reportedly improved on newer ships, the Navy's customer satisfaction goals aren't the same as HAL's!

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, AL3XCruise said:

 

Probably true, though carriers have grown at a much slower rate than cruise ships.  They got bigger to support jets, but growth since the 50s has been modest.  As you point out, there are a lot of new space hogging amenities that cruise lines now want to offer that have changed the industry.  In addition, economies of scale matter a lot more to a cruise line than the military.  And while livability has reportedly improved on newer ships, the Navy's customer satisfaction goals aren't the same as HAL's!

One thing to note, that 98,000 ton figure for an aircraft carrier is it's displacement, while the 224,000 figure for Oasis is its Gross Tonnage, two totally different measurements, and it is estimated that Oasis' displacement is in the 100,000 ton range.  You'll note that I didn't use "tons" with GT, since GT is a unitless number.

[Hawaiidan]

3 hours ago, sammiedawg said:

Size of the ship is less important than space per passenger, food, service and ship comfort.  

I’ve stayed out of the recent Prinsendam  threads but our experience was underwhelming because food, service, weird ship layout , ship comfort and condition were subpar to premium and luxury lines we have sailed.

There are a number of cruise lines who will keep smaller ships.

 I don’t get the handwringing over Prinsendam leaving the fleet.  Look around and you will find better.  It will be more expensive but you get what you pay for.  

You should of seen her when Royal Viking has her as the Sun... I was at christening by Jimmy Stewart in SF

back in 1980's.     She was the  hottest thing at that time except for the Sagafiord crowd.   Her layout was at that time wonderful..

    Both were judged to be luxury class...   650passengers      Then Seabourn and then HAL  got the ship   and proceeded to pack it with cabins and cut all sorts of deck space bars and pools...  It was like a plastic surgery gone bad.   To us Royal Viking passengers it was obscene what they did.    Now even with all that done by HAL people still fell in love with the ship as a touchstone to an era of ocean travel not to be seen again. No matter what you spend on the lux, and caviar what you get will not be of the same intrinsic value.... you get a modern cheap imitation.  You can't buy back what was lost.

People are wringing their their hands  because they see the loss of the pleasure of pure ocean travel on a classic.  Her replacements will be floating amusement park and malls   They bemoan the loss of the romance of the sea being replaced by flash and splash.    I can understand that.....

[Hawaiidan]

38 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

One thing to note, that 98,000 ton figure for an aircraft carrier is it's displacement, while the 224,000 figure for Oasis is its Gross Tonnage, two totally different measurements, and it is estimated that Oasis' displacement is in the 100,000 ton range.  You'll note that I didn't use "tons" with GT, since GT is a unitless number.

Carriers have  with the Nimitz reached an optimal size mobility, speed, efficiency     Better to have 10  than 5 larger.    Thanks for the displacement calc...       

[AL3XCruise]

42 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

One thing to note, that 98,000 ton figure for an aircraft carrier is it's displacement, while the 224,000 figure for Oasis is its Gross Tonnage, two totally different measurements, and it is estimated that Oasis' displacement is in the 100,000 ton range.  You'll note that I didn't use "tons" with GT, since GT is a unitless number.

 

I'm aware one is based on volume and has no defined unit while one is displacement, so you can't really compare directly.  Comparing carriers to carriers and cruise ships to cruise ships though and drawing a correlation is a bit more accurate.  Since GT isn't a linear measure (not to mention the design, structure, and purpose of the ships varies greatly) I'll admit it isn't a perfect comparison, but I think its still safe to say cruise ships are growing faster.   

 

The Ford class displaces about 20,000 tons more than the Forestall class and is about 40 feet longer.  Of course, the volume has probably increased much more than the displacement numbers indicate, but I still would be surprised if it comes anywhere close to what we've seen in megaships.

[sail7seas]

9 hours ago, drowelf said:

Isn't the new lifeboat position due to some changes in the regulations that came about after the Concordia sinking? 

 

As for the mega ships of other lines, I've never subscribed to the 'Ship as the Destination', which seems to be the business model they are working under. I prefer that the 'ship be what transports me to my destinations'. Its all about keeping you onboard and spending $$$. I'm sure that if they could figure out how to make it work, they would just leave port, cruise around, visit their private islands, cruise some more and return port. That way the only $$$ you spend go into their coffers. 

 

 

 

Most ports require, cruise ships, close casino and shops while in port =   little on board spending but for spa and salon, bars..   Excursions must be taking in more. than that little bit of  limited spending.

[Germancruiser]

Who knows? I hope they don´t - K-Dam and NSTDM are the limit for mit - speaking of size! HAL has different clientel as RCI or Carnival with the big baby´s! To much is indoors- to less connection to the sea, mostly no propper prommenade deck- as it happens to be with KDM and NSTDM- same as with the Solstice Class of X. Their Egde is not the ship for me!

[ski ww]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

One thing to note, that 98,000 ton figure for an aircraft carrier is it's displacement, while the 224,000 figure for Oasis is its Gross Tonnage, two totally different measurements, and it is estimated that Oasis' displacement is in the 100,000 ton range.  You'll note that I didn't use "tons" with GT, since GT is a unitless number.

Thanks for the explanation of the different tonnage. Still trying to figure out the different tonnage, deadweight, cargo, gross net, displacement & registered. For this land lubber that's a lot to wrap my head around.

[Moriah]

On 7/1/2019 at 9:59 PM, Boatdrill said:

There's a divide in the industry..... ships built to be amusement parks, and smaller ships that offer a traditional sailing experience. Thankfully HAL seems to be sticking with the latter, as it sets them a part in a very competitive industry. 

 

I'll continue to sail with HAL on the Vista and Signature ships, but I won't go larger to the Pinnacle class ( Koningsdam, N.S., etc.).   

 

I agree with you here.  For me, the problem with Pinnacle class ships isn't the size, really, but rather the changes that make them feel less "HAL-like".  The big one is the change to the wrap-around promenade deck.  The biggest ships that still maintain the really wonderful views all the way around are those in Signature class.  So that's as big as I will go, and I prefer even smaller.  I like to feel like I'm really "sailing"! I like a ship where it's easy to go outside.