Mandatory vaccination

[teacherman]

We were on a S America cruise when this first started.  First thing I heard of it was when we were at the Buenos Aires airport checking in to come home.  They asked if we had been to China in the previous month.   I said "No.   I have been here"  All of us laughed.   When I heard about the disease, first thing I asked was "Can asymptomatic people spread it?"  At first,no one seemed to know.   By the time they realized it,  many people were sick and dying that maybe could have been saved IF we had known that.  With a new disease, things change as new information arises.   Their job is to keep us safe, so that is what they are telling us, things that will help to keep us safe.

 

To me, it is like - will I get hurt if I don't wear my seat belt.   NO, not unless you get in a wreck.  But it is a little late to put it on after the wreck occurs.  Some people question the science and some people just don't like to have the government interfering in their lives.   You know, like maybe telling you to winterize your electric facilities.  Silly thing to do, unless it suddenly gets really cold.😇😇

[electro]

1 hour ago, macandlucy said:

I agree with you. It’s sensible and responsible to follow public health advice. But that advice also needs to be good. Telling people that they still can’t meet up with others, even if everyone is vaccinated? (I just heard about that one).

Oth, I see people making fun of the two masks advice. That is actually the best advice I have heard about masks so far. A surgical mask under a high filtering cloth mask will provide pretty good protection against aerosols. Much smarter to do that that walk around with a crummy mask and be under the false impression that you are protected. 

As per the bolded point, I heard the opposite from Dr. Fauci yesterday. He said if you are vaccinated and out in public you should still follow the protocols but if you are with other family members who are also vaccinated you don't need to wear a mask and can relax the guidelines.

[macandlucy]

59 minutes ago, electro said:

As per the bolded point, I heard the opposite from Dr. Fauci yesterday. He said if you are vaccinated and out in public you should still follow the protocols but if you are with other family members who are also vaccinated you don't need to wear a mask and can relax the guidelines.

Why do you need to wear a mask if you are vaccinated? Normally we don’t do that once vaccinated. Is this another one of fauci’s little white lies, like his “we don’t need to wear masks” last March? Or is there something different about the currently available vaccines, that makes them work differently than other vaccines? 

[teacherman]

IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING, that this vaccine MAY not keep you from picking up the virus.   IT PROBABLY will keep you from getting seriously ill, but you COULD still have the virus and spread it to others.  This is a NEWER VIRUS and NEWER VACCINES, so no one is sure.  A lot of people don't seem to understand that wearing a mask helps to protect OTHER people, not just ourselves.  At one time, celebrities endorsed tobacco products.  But now, they don't.  Simply because we have newer information showing it may be harmful to your health.  As newer information is discovered, new recommendations are made.

[JamieLogical]

41 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Why do you need to wear a mask if you are vaccinated? Normally we don’t do that once vaccinated. Is this another one of fauci’s little white lies, like his “we don’t need to wear masks” last March? Or is there something different about the currently available vaccines, that makes them work differently than other vaccines? 

 

Right, now, there is not enough data on the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines about whether or not they prevent people from getting infected and/or transmitting the virus. We only have efficacy data around ILLNESS and severity of illness. With the data that came out today for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, with that vaccine they did include data around transmission, so that is very promising. Right now the CDC is doing several studies around infection and transmission rate in people who have been vaccinated with Pfizer or Moderna, but it may be a while before those studies are concluded and the data becomes available.

[macandlucy]

26 minutes ago, teacherman said:

IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING, that this vaccine MAY not keep you from picking up the virus.   IT PROBABLY will keep you from getting seriously ill, but you COULD still have the virus and spread it to others.  This is a NEWER VIRUS and NEWER VACCINES, so no one is sure.  A lot of people don't seem to understand that wearing a mask helps to protect OTHER people, not just ourselves.  At one time, celebrities endorsed tobacco products.  But now, they don't.  Simply because we have newer information showing it may be harmful to your health.  As newer information is discovered, new recommendations are made.

I think the one message that the public health officials have been pretty consistent about is that masks can serve to reduce droplet spread from a covid infected person to another, non-infected person. That was the early messaging that hasn't changed from the start. If people don't understand that by now, we're in even more trouble than  I thought. 

 

The reason we use vaccines is to create herd immunity as quickly as possible -- that's all we have. Either the population acquires that immunity naturally through infection, or it acquires it through vaccination. We employ these mass vaccination public health measures for a number of reasons, one of which is to provide protection to those people who cannot be vaccinated.  It would be very unusual if a vaccine creates a bunch of Typhoid Marys -- people who pass the disease, but don't get sick themselves. And if it does do that, you have to wonder if it's the best way to vaccinate people -- maybe the old way -- attenuated virus -- is preferable. 

 

Every vaccine reduces transmission of viruses -- that's the "public health" component of vaccines. If the mRNA vaccines don't, which, frankly, looks unlikely based on data out of the UK and Israel, but if they don't, then they are very different, and we need to know that, especially those of us who care about not passing disease to others. But nonetheless, we need a scientific explanation for all of this -- otherwise some people will start to think it's less about truth and more about profit potential from endless boosters, etc., and that will create even more vaccine reluctance. 

 

 

 

 

[Daytonasailor]

7 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

Funny.   Us Navy guys used that same saying.  It was usually delivered by a rather grumpy Master Chief.  🙂

Yea, I tried to join the navy but they turned me down. They did a background check and found out my parents were married.

[roger001]

9 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

Funny.   Us Navy guys used that same saying.  It was usually delivered by a rather grumpy Master Chief.  🙂

I taught at the FAA Air Traffic Academy. Early on we would put the word “assume” on the chalkboard, and break it down into, makes an ass out of you and me.  Don’t know how many students paid attention though. 

[BirdTravels]

5 hours ago, macandlucy said:

Why do you need to wear a mask if you are vaccinated? Normally we don’t do that once vaccinated. Is this another one of fauci’s little white lies, like his “we don’t need to wear masks” last March? Or is there something different about the currently available vaccines, that makes them work differently than other vaccines? 

The vaccines, especially the soon-to-be-approved J&J vaccine, prevent you from getting severely or moderately sick when you catch COVID. Like any vaccine, if you catch the bug, you have the antibodies to fight it off. There is no evidence that, with the long incubation period, when you catch the bug and your antibodies are working to kill it or prevent you from going to hospital, whether there is enough not-dead virus in your system to allow you to spread the virus. Fauci said that COVID will likely become an endemic and be around for a long time.

 

wrt wearing masks, we learn more above the virus every day. And how we prevent spread and treat the virus today is vastly different than it was last March. And it will be vastly different in February 2022 than it is today. Do you seriously think that we would learn nothing or that we would do nothing different after a year? Treatments being tried a year ago would seem almost barbaric by today's standards. And what we are doing today with the treatments and vaccines today will seem barbaric next year. Do you think that the vaccine manufacturers are sitting back collecting profits today? Nope, they are working on the next generation of vaccines and booster shots,,,, some going into clinical trials next month,,,, because we know that today's vaccines are not good enough. 

[coffeebean]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:43 PM, Stick93 said:

If you believe nobody has been hurt by the vaccine and nothing can be linked to the vaccine - you may not be looking in the right place. OR... maybe you also believe that taking covid positive people and placing them in nursing homes last year in March didn't cause one extra death - it just was bad luck. There is a very unhappy man in the NY state capital who believes that and will take it to his grave! 

I never mentioned that travesty that Gov. Cuomo caused so do not, under any circumstances, ever mention my posting and that fiasco in the same key stroke.

[coffeebean]

23 hours ago, Tippyton said:

Yah I've heard that in line for the grape Flavor-Aid.  Have you heard that people who had SARS1 are still immune 18 years later?   Have you heard that people who had SARS1 are immune from SARS2?   Have you heard the lasting immunity is 9 months which is all we have the data from.  Zero science says that, after having had Covid, that I need a vaccine.  Anything that says that is opinion and couched with a "we don't know but".  All BS.  With an R value of greater than 1 the MATH says cases will increase.  If we really could get COVID again the cases would ultimately level off at some high number.  I'm from Missouri - SHOW ME!

I had not heard any of what you mentioned. But......I did find this abstract and it seems to debunk what you say about high titers of antibodies at 18 years.........

 

See what this abstract has to say about SARS

[coffeebean]

22 hours ago, zerooveride said:

I will say this, I have known a couple of people who have gotten COVID twice. Confirmed tests, months apart

That is because natural immunity from Covid does not last very long. Anyone who contracts Covid twice evidently engages in Covid risky behavior. They didn't learn the first time? There is no hope for them.

[Stick93]

24 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

I never mentioned that travesty that Gov. Cuomo caused so do not, under any circumstances, ever mention my posting and that fiasco in the same key stroke.

You funny - 

 

 

7 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

That is because natural immunity from Covid does not last very long. Anyone who contracts Covid twice evidently engages in Covid risky behavior. They didn't learn the first time? There is no hope for them.

Dr Coffeebean - Are there such things as false positives?? are there times where people get unlucky? This is quite a statement about what you assume people are doing. Wait until people who get the vaccine test positive from their risk behavior of living life!

[coffeebean]

7 hours ago, macandlucy said:

Why do you need to wear a mask if you are vaccinated? Normally we don’t do that once vaccinated. Is this another one of fauci’s little white lies, like his “we don’t need to wear masks” last March? Or is there something different about the currently available vaccines, that makes them work differently than other vaccines? 

No, not one of Fauci's "little white lies". Where do you get your news and daily Covid updates from? Why don't you know why we are told to continue to wear masks and social distance? I suggest you do some research about the subject.

 

Having said that, about a week ago, Dr. Fauci made an announcement that there is NEW evidence that vaccinated people will not transmit the virus because of low viral load in their nasopharynx. This information comes from Israel who uses the Pfizer vaccine exclusively which is an mRNA vaccine. Why don't you look this one up so you can be informed as to the new developments of the mRNA vaccines?

Edited February 25, 2021 by coffeebean

[JamieLogical]

13 minutes ago, Stick93 said:

You funny - 

 

 

Dr Coffeebean - Are there such things as false positives?? are there times where people get unlucky? This is quite a statement about what you assume people are doing. Wait until people who get the vaccine test positive from their risk behavior of living life!

 

Currently, there are no completed studies that show that vaccinated people cannot become infected with COVID-19 or have any reduction in rate of infection. The trial data is all around efficacy at preventing ILLNESS. So, becoming infected after vaccination may be quite common, for all we know. Not to mention that in the US at least, the only approved vaccines require two doses, several weeks apart, and it takes 7-14 days after the second dose to even reach maximum efficacy against illness. So, there is a decent chance of becoming infected in the 3-4 weeks between doses or the 2 weeks after the second dose, regardless of how effective the vaccines might be in preventing infection.

[coffeebean]

16 minutes ago, Stick93 said:

You funny - 

 

 

Dr Coffeebean - Are there such things as false positives?? are there times where people get unlucky? This is quite a statement about what you assume people are doing. Wait until people who get the vaccine test positive from their risk behavior of living life!

Honestly, I don't make this stuff up. I have read about people who have had Covid twice and the second time around it kicked their asses after a very mild case the first time.

 

I spend half my time researching everything I post about. And.....of course there are false positive tests and also false negative tests. This is the reason I will never get tested for Covid unless it was necessary for entry to where ever or to have surgery or what ever reason that I MUST be tested. Otherwise, I don't trust the results of those tests. Same reason I do not trust any of the statistics that have been made over the past year. There are just too many variables that are linked to those stats for me to take them seriously.

 

[Tippyton]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

I had not heard any of what you mentioned. But......I did find this abstract and it seems to debunk what you say about high titers of antibodies at 18 years.........

 

See what this abstract has to say about SARS

Not antibodies....Antibodies wane over time.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8529429/Could-immunity-17-YEARS-Singaporean-researchers-SARS-patients-crucial-T-cells.html

 

 

[macandlucy]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

No, not one of Fauci's "little white lies". Where do you get your news and daily Covid updates from? Why don't you know why we are told to continue to wear masks and social distance? I suggest you do some research about the subject.

 

Having said that, about a week ago, Dr. Fauci made an announcement that there is NEW evidence that vaccinated people will not transmit the virus because of low viral load in their nasopharynx. This information comes from Israel who uses the Pfizer vaccine exclusively which is an mRNA vaccine. Why don't you look this one up so you can be informed as to the new developments of the mRNA vaccines?

My questions were not directed at you personally. I’m actually quite informed, and my questions demonstrate that. It’s very unusual to worry about being contagious once vaccinated. It’s unusual that you would need to wear a mask or distance once vaccinated. That is one of the reasons we get vaccinated. 
 

Dr. Fauci did tell the public a white lie about masks — he admitted that. 
 

As for where I get my information. I’d say mostly from the scientific journals, or from sources that I trust. I’m lucky to have had a good education in how to read a paper with a critical eye. And that is why I have questions. It’s not enough for me to say “we don’t know” when we actually do know. We have known masks work for many years now, that’s why healthcare pros wanted them when we didn’t have enough. The line we were given, that the science wasn’t clear, was not true. Once someone lies to me once, I tend to wonder about what else they are lying about. 
 

I think questions are a good thing. And I don’t think the all the experts have been particularly good this time around. It’s important to evaluate the information given using reason, logic, critical thinking. 

[lizzius]

2 hours ago, coffeebean said:

That is because natural immunity from Covid does not last very long. Anyone who contracts Covid twice evidently engages in Covid risky behavior. They didn't learn the first time? There is no hope for them.

What? By all accounts it seems to be just as good as the vaccines for at least as long as we have had survivors to study... I actually read a paper today that put protection conferred from natural infection at 90%, pretty close to the upper estimates of the mRNA vaccines. And the people who are getting reinfected could very well be working in high exposure environments to make sure you and I get groceries and the like. Let's not write them off.

 

Also, you pointed something out about antibodies and immunity: long term immunity has many components, and antibodies may not always be an important marker for protection from a disease. They cannot be used by themselves to determine someone's immunity status for COVID.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by lizzius

[BirdTravels]

2 hours ago, coffeebean said:

No, not one of Fauci's "little white lies". Where do you get your news and daily Covid updates from? Why don't you know why we are told to continue to wear masks and social distance? I suggest you do some research about the subject.

 

Having said that, about a week ago, Dr. Fauci made an announcement that there is NEW evidence that vaccinated people will not transmit the virus because of low viral load in their nasopharynx. This information comes from Israel who uses the Pfizer vaccine exclusively which is an mRNA vaccine. Why don't you look this one up so you can be informed as to the new developments of the mRNA vaccines?

On 2/17/21 Dr. Fauci said “The looming question is, if the person who’s been vaccinated gets infected, does that person have the capability to transmit it to another person. Some [Spanish and Israeli] studies are pointing in a very favorable direction." Which is far, far, far from a pronouncement that a vaccinated person will not transmit the virus. Dr. Fauci continued that "People who have been vaccinated should still practice social distancing, hand-washing, and, most importantly, mask-wearing"

 

 

[zdcatc12]

5 hours ago, roger001 said:

I taught at the FAA Air Traffic Academy.

I taught at the Academy from 2014-2018, Raytheon and then SAIC.

[PATRLR]

Based on our knowledge of the generally accepted science and recommendations today, mandatory vaccinations are one of the requirements for us to return to cruising.  So, I am all for it.

[winterbliss]

Here goes my curiosity again..long term mask wearing, over sanitization, staying away from others and any activities that are a normal part of our lives...what do folks think we are really going to accomplish in the long run? You better believe that I believe in science.....therein is my point.

[Trimone]

I was always told, trust science not the media.

Even after vaccine, the same applies.

Mask Wash social distance 

[roger001]

7 hours ago, zdcatc12 said:

I taught at the Academy from 2014-2018, Raytheon and then SAIC.

I was OKC Terminal instructor '78 - '82.  Then headed up to the ORD Tracon for a 6 days a week for 8 years.  I started out on the west coast at ZLA for 6 years and then LGB, both approach (when they had their own) and then tower for a few years. Did a geographical relocation down the BNA finally from ORD in '90 and retired out of there in '02.  It pays for cruising, back when there was such a thing.  I had noticed your zdcatc.