Thoughts on getting around the vaccination req’t

[BoozinCroozin]

12 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

The slippery slope started long ago with smoking bans. Businesses were allowed to control workers even off duty (folks were warned it would snowball but didn't believe it). Nurses in TX just had their cases tossed recently as well. They sued due to vaccine requirements for employment. They were told they could work elsewhere and had a choice. Employers can now force you to get a vaccine as a condition of employment. I just don't see these anti vaccine laws holding up in court based on all other evidence and previous rulings and established precedent. The laws/rulings seems consistent: choices have consequences. Cruising is no different.     

There is nothing wrong with businesses banning smoking nor requiring vaccination. These are voluntary choices. YOU make the choice to smoke which is against a business' policies. Smoking drastically increases the cost of insurance to the point some businesses can't afford to offer it. The decision is to either punish the 90%+ or tell the <10% either quit smoking or find somewhere else to work. The same goes for the employees at the hospital. It is your choice to work there. If they require vaccination, YOU make the choice whether you want to work there.

 

This is the problem in the US. We have people that think they have Freedom of Choice AND Freedom From Consequences. That is simply not the case. You accept the consequences based on your choices.

[d12j28]

10 hours ago, SNJCruisers said:

Does the total population cruise?  The only percentages that matter are those of cruisers and I believe that Cruise Critic ran a poll that the majority of readers were on the vaccinated side of the line in the sand. 

Of course not everyone cruises. I'd be willing to bet though that there are more people who have cruised that aren't even on CC than there are members here.  

[deliver42]

Of course there are more people cruising that aren't on CC, but that poll gives a pretty good idea of what people are thinking. CC isn't an island where our feelings are so much different than the general public.

[sm3ds]

1 hour ago, deliver42 said:

Of course there are more people cruising that aren't on CC, but that poll gives a pretty good idea of what people are thinking. CC isn't an island where our feelings are so much different than the general public.

So you really think people that spend hours a day on a cruise forum don't have different perspective than the general public?

[d12j28]

1 hour ago, deliver42 said:

Of course there are more people cruising that aren't on CC, but that poll gives a pretty good idea of what people are thinking. CC isn't an island where our feelings are so much different than the general public.

Right, you can believe the nonscientific poll if you would like. There are so many things that can skew any poll like say the age of those polled for example. I can guarantee you will get totally different results from asking those over 50 vs those in their 20's and 30's.  

 

And for the record, I'm not against any cruise line starting with vaccinated cruises. If it gets them sailing I'm all for it. The point I was making is it's not some vast majority as the original person I quoted said.

[jfunk138]

5 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

There is nothing wrong with businesses banning smoking nor requiring vaccination. These are voluntary choices. YOU make the choice to smoke which is against a business' policies. Smoking drastically increases the cost of insurance to the point some businesses can't afford to offer it. The decision is to either punish the 90%+ or tell the <10% either quit smoking or find somewhere else to work. The same goes for the employees at the hospital. It is your choice to work there. If they require vaccination, YOU make the choice whether you want to work there.

 

This is the problem in the US. We have people that think they have Freedom of Choice AND Freedom From Consequences. That is simply not the case. You accept the consequences based on your choices.

Very few businesses successfully banned smoking before the government did.  90% (maybe even higher) of bars and restaurants allowed smoking prior to the government bans.

Vaccinations would be similar if the CDC wasn't sticking their nose in.  Carnival made it very clear that if not for the restrictions and red tape imposed by the CDC, they would be vax-optional as well.

 

It's not "free choice", and it's not "free markets", when the CDC if forcing a choice between "prison ship at sea" and mandatory vaccinations.  If Disney World can be completely restriction free as of today, so can cruise ships.

[cruisingguy007]

6 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

There is nothing wrong with businesses banning smoking nor requiring vaccination. These are voluntary choices. YOU make the choice to smoke which is against a business' policies. Smoking drastically increases the cost of insurance to the point some businesses can't afford to offer it. The decision is to either punish the 90%+ or tell the <10% either quit smoking or find somewhere else to work. The same goes for the employees at the hospital. It is your choice to work there. If they require vaccination, YOU make the choice whether you want to work there.

 

This is the problem in the US. We have people that think they have Freedom of Choice AND Freedom From Consequences. That is simply not the case. You accept the consequences based on your choices.

 

Thanks for reiterating my point. Nonetheless, the slippery slope aspect remains valid. The second employers were allowed to interlope into our personal lives/legal choices/freedoms we lost something that will be difficult to get back. It might not effect some yet, but it will someday. It's inevitable and only a matter of time. They will take as much as is allowed and the more that is taken, the easier it gets to take more.    

[Elaine5715]

8 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

There is nothing wrong with businesses banning smoking nor requiring vaccination. These are voluntary choices. YOU make the choice to smoke which is against a business' policies. Smoking drastically increases the cost of insurance to the point some businesses can't afford to offer it. The decision is to either punish the 90%+ or tell the <10% either quit smoking or find somewhere else to work. The same goes for the employees at the hospital. It is your choice to work there. If they require vaccination, YOU make the choice whether you want to work there.

 

This is the problem in the US. We have people that think they have Freedom of Choice AND Freedom From Consequences. That is simply not the case. You accept the consequences based on your choices.

The people who believe in freedom to choose are not the same people who believe in lack of consequences.  

[kilkoyne]

On 6/13/2021 at 2:37 PM, silversneakers said:

So, you can have "proof of vaccination" and still contract COVID while on a cruise. What a mess!

 

You can also be vaccinated and contract COIVD in the grocery store, restaurants, family gatherings, etc.

[kilkoyne]

Might have been suggested already...... cruise lines require $5,000 deposit only refundable with proof of  vaccine.

[TNcruising02]

or... do as Carnival is doing and say they are sailing with vaccinated only.  Let all others cancel or rebook thinking they will be denied service.   When the cruise arrives sail with what is left, which is vaccinated only.  They never have to deny anyone.  Tell all of the remaining passengers that if they show their vaccination card, they will not have to wear masks.

Edited June 15, 2021 by TNcruising02

[chilltime3]

On 6/13/2021 at 5:39 PM, MrMarc said:

Both laws have similar phrasing regarding the exception regarding Federal Law.  Texas is a little broader in that it doesn't require the exceptions to be Federal Law.  However, CDC rules are Federal law.  Here are both laws so everyone can make up their own minds:

FLORIDA

  381.00316 COVID-19 vaccine documentation.—

 1122         (1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include

 1123  any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or

 1124  customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19

 1125  vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry

 1126  upon, or service from the business operations in this state.

 1127  This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from

 1128  instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or

 1129  controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.

 1130         (2) A governmental entity as defined in s. 768.38 may not

 1131  require persons to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19

 1132  vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry

 1133  upon, or service from the governmental entity’s operations in

 1134  this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict

 1135  governmental entities from instituting screening protocols

 1136  consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued

 1137  guidance to protect public health.

 1138         (3) An educational institution as defined in s. 768.38 may

 1139  not require students or residents to provide any documentation

 1140  certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery for

 1141  attendance or enrollment, or to gain access to, entry upon, or

 1142  service from such educational institution in this state. This

 1143  subsection does not otherwise restrict educational institutions

 1144  from instituting screening protocols consistent with

 1145  authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to

 1146  protect public health.

 1147         (4) The department may impose a fine not to exceed $5,000

 1148  per violation.

 1149         (5) This section does not apply to a health care provider

 1150  as defined in s. 768.38; a service provider licensed or

 1151  certified under s. 393.17, part III of chapter 401, or part IV

 1152  of chapter 468; or a provider with an active health care clinic

 1153  exemption under s. 400.9935.

 1154         (6) The department may adopt rules pursuant to ss. 120.536

 1155  and 120.54 to implement this section.

 

 

 TEXAS

Sec. 161.0085.  COVID-19 VACCINE PASSPORTS PROHIBITED. (a)
	In this section, "COVID-19" means the 2019 novel coronavirus
	disease.
	(b)  A governmental entity in this state may not issue a
	vaccine passport, vaccine pass, or other standardized
	documentation to certify an individual's COVID-19 vaccination
	status to a third party for a purpose other than health care or
	otherwise publish or share any individual's COVID-19 immunization
	record or similar health information for a purpose other than
	health care.
	(c)  A business in this state may not require a customer to
	provide any documentation certifying the customer's COVID-19
	vaccination or post-transmission recovery on entry to, to gain
	access to, or to receive service from the business. A business that
	fails to comply with this subsection is not eligible to receive a     grant or enter into a contract payable with state funds.          (d)  Notwithstanding any other law, each appropriate state   agency shall ensure that businesses in this state comply with   Subsection (c) and may require compliance with that subsection as a   condition for a license, permit, or other state authorization   necessary for conducting business in this state.          (e)  This section may not be construed to:                (1)  restrict a business from implementing COVID-19   screening and infection control protocols in accordance with state   and federal law to protect public health; or                (2)  interfere with an individual's right to access the   individual's personal health information under federal law.

 

[chilltime3]

many keep bringing up Florida (or Texas) law. However, the ships are not US owned ships and once in international waters they have ways around whatever Florida wants to enact as law.  Has already been debated that all the ship has to do is go into international waters and ask for proof of vaccination. All those who don't want to show proof or are not vaccinated can then be tendered back to shore and no refunds given. 

[chilltime3]

27 minutes ago, kilkoyne said:

Might have been suggested already...... cruise lines require $5,000 deposit only refundable with proof of  vaccine.

yes, that option has been one I have seen as a possibility as well as tendering unvaccinated or those with no proof,  back to shore with no refund. Proof can be checked once in international waters. 

 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Not building a Venn Diagram for it. However, there are groups that believe they can have it all. Freedom of Choice, Freedom from Consequences. 

 

Cruise lines need to stop playing games and go vaccinated only. There is no confusion on it. There are ways around it though to get by any State's "law". The simplest is as follows:

 

• Anyone voluntarily showing vaccination proof can board from 11AM-3PM. 
• Mandatory Muster Drill is at 3:30PM
• Anyone choosing not to show vaccine proof will need to meet at the testing facility at 3PM.
  • Testing will take a minimum of 2 hours
  • The final boarding time is 3:30PM
  • If you fail to complete testing with results and onboard the ship by 3:30, you forfeit your cruise with no refund.
  • Setup the facility an hour away from the port
  • Let the people choose how they want to proceed. 

This absolves the cruise line from any refunds, there is no requirement asking for proof of vaccination. Those choosing not to voluntarily share it are putting there cruise fares on the line and taking a gamble. It is perfectly fine that it is an absolute losing wager, it is a choice.

LOL, your workaround is diabolical.

[ontheweb]

11 minutes ago, chilltime3 said:

many keep bringing up Florida (or Texas) law. However, the ships are not US owned ships and once in international waters they have ways around whatever Florida wants to enact as law.  Has already been debated that all the ship has to do is go into international waters and ask for proof of vaccination. All those who don't want to show proof or are not vaccinated can then be tendered back to shore and no refunds given. 

Are you going to warn parents whose children are not yet eligible for any of the Covid vaccinations that their children will be taken from them and tendered back to the port?

[chilltime3]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Are you going to warn parents whose children are not yet eligible for any of the Covid vaccinations that their children will be taken from them and tendered back to the port?

I am not going to do anything, nor warn anyone. However, I am sure the cruise line has lawyers to figure out the legalities. Of course, those not eligible for vaccinations wouldn't be required to show proof so that is moot

 

[ontheweb]

9 minutes ago, chilltime3 said:

I am not going to do anything, nor warn anyone. However, I am sure the cruise line has lawyers to figure out the legalities. Of course, those not eligible for vaccinations wouldn't be required to show proof so that is moot

 

I of course meant is the cruise line going to warn the parents.

[MrMarc]

Wow, there are some interesting ideas here, but do you actually think any cruise line would take the negative publicity and legal issues that many of these solutions would cause?  They have to have a pre-cruise work around that they are confident in, or this is just not going to happen.  Yes, they have announced things, but how many times have they changed previously announced plans?

[rolloman]

On 6/13/2021 at 2:29 PM, jetsfan58 said:

Why would we even consider Cruising without Masks or Proof of Vaccination? We are continuing to put innocent lives at high risk. If you don't believe in the vaccines, believe that Covid is real and believe that Covid is starting to infect more young children then you have no right to believe that you should Cruise. 

 

We should be fed up with our Citizens getting sicker because a few "Out of Control" State Governors are power hungry! I am as eager to Cruise as the next Carnival Cruise Nut; however, I am not willing to risk my or my family's life onboarding with a bunch of "False" document holding passengers.     

Trying to figure out how your family's life would be at risk if you are all vaccinated? When you go ashore are you counting on everyone at each destination to be vaccinated as well? In reality the only issue would be a shortened cruise after it returns to port early. Please don't respond you may be stuck at sea...that was a one time event back in very early 2020 pre-vaccinations and before anyone knew what the disease was capable of.  

[TNcruising02]

I would like to know how Carnival feels so confident they can sail with 95% vaccinated.  If they don't do the test cruises and end up with less than 95% vaccinated, they won't be able to sail at all.  I wonder if they are also doing test cruises as a backup.  If not, they had to have figured out a way around the law.  They have millions of dollars on the line.

Edited June 15, 2021 by TNcruising02

[TNcruising02]

Healthy people don't need masks to protect other people.  People who have recovered from covid have immunities just like those who are vaccinated.  Sick people should wear masks or stay home.  Putting a mask forever on healthy people on the off chance that they will someday come down with covid is ridiculous.  

If I am sick, I will stay home.  If everyone did that, then it would solve a lot of the health problems.  People who go out and about coughing everywhere are the problem, not healthy people going about their business.  

[sm3ds]

15 hours ago, d12j28 said:

Of course not everyone cruises. I'd be willing to bet though that there are more people who have cruised that aren't even on CC than there are members here.  

You think? I read through all these threads and there is one poster who is responsible for at least 1 out every 10 posts on every thread having to do with vaccines. For the most part every thread is the same handful of posters saying the same thing over and over. 

 

Over the last ten years I came to this forum to do research on cruise lines, ships and ports. I rarely posted anything. I'm ashamed of myself for how much I've posted over the last two weeks. I guess my frustration over trying to plan a vacation drove me into the muck this forum has become. 

 

In short I agree with you I don't think this forum during this pandemic represents the majority of cruisers.