Does Royal take Pinnacles for granted?

[hova]

The cabin assignments are likely an IT function, as the system  could run a program and automatically assign the available cabins to the guarantees (saving the manual labor).   They likely have it set up so assignments are random.  I really don’t think they have personnel looking at C&A status and deciding which cabin to give them!  

[Merion_Mom]

19 hours ago, Karter said:

Three guarantee balcony cabins were booked at the same time as a group on Odyssey of the Seas.

Couple 1 Second cruse ever with Royal Caribbean

Couple 2 Platinum books a cruise every 3 to 4 years

Couple 3 Pinnacle books 15 to 20 cruises a year - currently has 18 cruises booked.

When the cabins were assigned couples 1 and 2 were assigned balconies on deck 11 near the center of the ship couple 3 the Pinnacle couple was assigned a 50% obstructed view cabin on deck 6.

 

I love Deck 6.  You have the secret door to Two70.  

[PWP-001]

9 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

There are far more non suite cabins on ships than suites that need to be filled. Don't knock the people who are filling them up as they are just as important to RCI's prosperity as those booking the suites 

 

Maybe instead of talking to every LA,  hotel director, and revenue manager about it you should try just enjoying your cruise. 

NOT EXACTLY...

 

Filling a cabin with "buying units" who don't BUY doesn't help profitability.  The cruise fare isn't enough to make the voyage profitable.  The real money lies with the on board incidentals:  drinks, excursions, photos, specialty dining, casino, etc.

 

When D, D+, or P sail in a cheap cabin, spend nothing and use all of their benefits, it doesn't really help.

 

What are important for RCI's prosperity -- and as is the same on any line -- are passengers who come on board and spend, whether they be first time cruisers to RCI or any level of C&A.

[Ocean Boy]

2 hours ago, PWP-001 said:

NOT EXACTLY...

 

Filling a cabin with "buying units" who don't BUY doesn't help profitability.  The cruise fare isn't enough to make the voyage profitable.  The real money lies with the on board incidentals:  drinks, excursions, photos, specialty dining, casino, etc.

 

When D, D+, or P sail in a cheap cabin, spend nothing and use all of their benefits, it doesn't really help.

 

What are important for RCI's prosperity -- and as is the same on any line -- are passengers who come on board and spend, whether they be first time cruisers to RCI or any level of C&A.

I understand all that. However,  empty cabins also mean no gratuities for staff and that pay needs to be made up somewhere. You can't adjust crew staffing weekly depending upon how many cabins are booked. I still say RCI is better off with a D, D+, P in the cabin than they are with an empty cabin.

 

I would also point out that those folks might be more motivated to spend if on board pricing was a bit more reasonable. 

 

I still say there is a need for everyone who books. If not then RCI would de-incentivize those that it wanted to get rid of. 

[Sunshine3601]

3 hours ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

I love Deck 6.  You have the secret door to Two70.  

I 2nd that.   We love deck 6, secret door and convenient to walk up or down to decks 3, 4 or 5. 

When they say 50% obstruction it could simply be unable to look straight down to water due to life boats.

There are some nice obstructed cabins on deck 6 that we have been happy with on Anthem sailings.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Sunshine3601

[nelblu]

10 hours ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

 

I appreciate your willingness to sacrifice your obstructed view for the benefit of those who dwell in the steerage class in our cave like windowless interior rooms. 🤣

 

Someday, just someday, I might benefit from your "sage advice."

 

Until then, I will enjoy my dark cave and sleep very well until I see the next sunrise. 😇

Next time, ry the virtual you may feel better.😊

[nelblu]

10 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

FWIW, we attended a Q&A for World Cruisers on Wonder ladt month. One of the questions dealt with how would Royal enhance the benefits for the Pins onboard. The context dealt with the fact that the entire ship would receive a lot of the std pinnacle perks.

 

Their response was they had a plethora of additional perks and experiences planned for us. So that's 👌 

 

Wouldn't want to feel taken for granted after dumping 6 figures into this endeavor 😉

By the way any further word on the C&A anniversary gift.

[nelblu]

11 hours ago, gkbiiii said:

Perhaps Diamond Plus's get the best treatment, as Royal doesn't fully own them yet.

Hey, I've been owned by them since turning D.  🤣

[Engineroom Snipe]

31 minutes ago, nelblu said:

Next time, ry the virtual you may feel better.😊

 

It would only be a tease...."Ain't nothing like the real thing, baby" (Marving Gaye and Tammi Terrell).

 

Thanks for trying....., I do not feel better. 😭

[John&LaLa]

39 minutes ago, nelblu said:

By the way any further word on the C&A anniversary gift.

 

[PWP-001]

2 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

I understand all that. However,  empty cabins also mean no gratuities for staff and that pay needs to be made up somewhere. You can't adjust crew staffing weekly depending upon how many cabins are booked. I still say RCI is better off with a D, D+, P in the cabin than they are with an empty cabin.

 

I would also point out that those folks might be more motivated to spend if on board pricing was a bit more reasonable. 

 

I still say there is a need for everyone who books. If not then RCI would de-incentivize those that it wanted to get rid of. 

You're referring to the concept that airline seats, hotel rooms and cruise cabins are perishable commodities:  a flight with empty seats, a hotel room that's unoccupied for the night or a cabin that sails empty are lost revenue, and there's never an opportunity to sell that seat, room or cabin on the respective flight, night or voyage.

 

However while labor costs are fixed on the ship, there are quite a few savings that come with an empty cabin.  Small savings from no water consumption in the vacant cabin and less water use in the laundry as there is less linen & terry to clean.  But a larger savings comes with less consumption of food.  There are great savings when a ship forecasted to sail even at 85% orders less food for the week's voyage.  

 

So there are times when it just doesn't make sense to sell a cabin at a deep discount when the data shows historically that these bargain priced travelers typically don't spend on drinks, excursions, or play in the casino.  And specifically you mentioned loyal elites (D,D+,P) where there is an additional cost associated with their benefits.  

 

Sometimes the return just isn't there.  

 

Factor in the pluses associated with a less than full sailing on the guest experience.  While intangible, there is something to say about providing a better experience when there are less people on the ship.

Edited January 12, 2023 by PWP-001

[BND]

1 minute ago, PWP-001 said:

You're referring to the concept that airline seats, hotel rooms and cruise cabins are perishable commodities:  a flight with empty seats, a hotel room that's unoccupied for the night or a cabin that sails empty are lost revenue, and there's never an opportunity to sell that seat, room or cabin on the respective flight, night or voyage.

 

However while labor costs are fixed on the ship, there are quite a few savings that come with an empty cabin.  Small savings from no water consumption in the vacant cabin and less water use in the laundry as there is less linen & terry to clean.  But a larger savings comes with less consumption of food.  There are great savings when a ship forecasted to sail even at 85% orders less food for the week's voyage.  

 

So there are times when it just doesn't make sense to sell a cabin at a deep discount when the data shows historically that these bargain priced travelers typically don't spend on drinks, excursions, or play in the casino.

A cruise ship orders food in advance and they pretty much have standing orders based on average sailings with enough extra to carry over into the next cruise.  They don't purchase at the micro level you seem to think. Most water is made from seawater onboard and they make sure the tanks are always full.  Fuel costs don't really change since most is used to run the generators for the engines as well as electricity onboard.  I think everyone knows that it's not the cabin sales that are profitable for cruise lines.  It's the casino and alcohol sales in particular where profits come from.  I know several D+ who gamble enough to get "free" cruises all the time.  So, while the cabin costs them nothing and their drinks in the casino only are "free", they are adding to RCI's bottom line by gambling enough to qualify for those perks.  Cashflow is the key and an empty cabin creates zero cashflow.

[DirtyDawg]

18 hours ago, Tree_skier said:

I'm clearly not living right.  Out of six cruises, on which several I have bid medium or strong, I have won zero.

 

18 hours ago, billslowsky said:

On our September cruise we put in a minimum bid for a balcony from an inside.  It was accepted a day or two before sailing.  We received several invitations to events on the ship in someone else's names, the couple who cancelled last minute.  And enjoyed their welcoming cookies and water bottles.

@Tree_skier clearly the Royal Caribbean computer system likes @billslowsky much better than it like you. Like you I never win upgrade bids but I've smashed more than my share of smart TV's, laptops, and smartphones in the past.  Were you also mean to one or two of its cousins in the past? 😊

[Joseph2017China]

well, I'm Diamond and next cruise is on a mega ship, and is a balcony guarantee.  If the Pinnacles get the obstructed, than hopefully none will be left and I'll get a good room

[Karter]

After reading all the replies I think it is one of two things.

 

1. It is purely random and status has no effect on cabin selected.

2. They look at the Pinnacle's history of onboard spending which is usually $0 and takes advantage of all the OBC they can get (next cruise, stock holders, Ta, etc.) and group bookings to get  the best price. Plus they know he will be back irregardless of the cabin provided. That may not be the case with with a second time cruiser.

 

I know Royal's IT department is not the best in the world but they could easily have an algorithm to maximize onboard spending and encourage those guests likely to spend more on board to return by giving preferential treatment when it comes to cabin selection. In the past before Royalup I saw a lot of first time cruisers get upgraded.

 

For me I think it is number 2. 

 

BTW The cabin was upgraded with a small Royalup bid by the Pinnacle.

 

 

 

[PWP-001]

1 hour ago, BND said:

A cruise ship orders food in advance and they pretty much have standing orders based on average sailings with enough extra to carry over into the next cruise.  They don't purchase at the micro level you seem to think. Most water is made from seawater onboard and they make sure the tanks are always full.  Fuel costs don't really change since most is used to run the generators for the engines as well as electricity onboard.  I think everyone knows that it's not the cabin sales that are profitable for cruise lines.  It's the casino and alcohol sales in particular where profits come from.  I know several D+ who gamble enough to get "free" cruises all the time.  So, while the cabin costs them nothing and their drinks in the casino only are "free", they are adding to RCI's bottom line by gambling enough to qualify for those perks.  Cashflow is the key and an empty cabin creates zero cashflow.

Booking pace data gives a pretty good idea as to occupancy WEEKS IN ADVACE of sailing, plenty of time to adjust food orders for particular sailings.  A ten point vacancy on a ship translates to thousands of dollars saved in food cost by adjusting an order which is anything but "micro level."

 

I didn't mention electricity and only mentioned water because the desalinization and reverse osmosis process used is costly.  I don't care to do the math on gallons of consumption per cabin.

 

A micro view is one cabin.  The macro view is the 400 to 500 cabins that represent 10% of a ship.  That's a lot of food and a lot of water over a 7 day cruise.  

 

20 years ago American Airlines saved over $1 Million simply by eliminating a black olive from a salad.

 

Casino comps are a very profitable way to fill empty cabins-- because they only issue them to gamblers who have a general track record of losing enough money in the casino.  It's a fluke that they hand out a comp room to someone that just drops $20 in the casino.  

 

This discussion focused on whether it's profitable to sail with empty cabins, forgoing low-rev passengers who may result in negative cash flow with expenses exceeding revenue.  In these cases, zero cash flow would be better.

 

[billslowsky]

2 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

 

@Tree_skier clearly the Royal Caribbean computer system likes @billslowsky much better than it like you. Like you I never win upgrade bids but I've smashed more than my share of smart TV's, laptops, and smartphones in the past.  Were you also mean to one or two of its cousins in the past? 😊

This is the gospel truth!

 

The details of that trip will confound anyone trying to figure out the RoyalUp algorithm.  Canada trip out of Boston, we booked two GTY interior cabins - there was no single supplement, we took the trip both as a cheap vacation and the points got us to Diamond for the trip we took later in 2022 - free drinks motivate us.  Literally dirt cheap fare and double points.  

 

We did the minimum bid + $5 on my wife's room for balcony only, at the last minute it went through.  The keys on the door had someone else's name on them so we went to Guest Services and they changed it.  The welcoming gifts were in the other people's name, Guest Services said enjoy.  The next day they delivered a new set (water bottles and cookies) in wife's name.  We had the invite to the C&A exception in the other people's name, we went to the desk and got it in ours.  Also had the water and cookies in my interior room - I met up with the room attendant and let him know that I wasn't going to use the room other than for picking up "my" mail, so he got the week off.

 

So if there's an algorithm, good luck figuring it out.

[The Fun Researcher]

7 hours ago, PWP-001 said:

The cruise fare isn't enough to make the voyage profitable. 

How would you know this?  I would assume the opposite.

Dan

[Mikew0805]

 

1 hour ago, The Fun Researcher said:

How would you know this?  I would assume the opposite.

Dan

Especially since we know from the shutdown days that some ships can break even at 30-35% (I don't remember the exact percentage) occupancy according to their own earnings calls.

 

Also, going back to my days with CCL, we certainly made a profit prior to the ship departure. Also, there was less onboard opportunity to make additional $$. (Less specialty dining for example) As @BND mentioned, most of the costs were fixed regardless of pax capacity. Food for example, in many cases would either be eaten or wasted. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Mikew0805

[Donsyb]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:14 PM, sgmn said:

Strange though, you would think it would be. When I worked for the airlines it was the top tier FF who we upgraded first in an overbooking situation in main cabin. 

I guess it shows its an automated system with no manual input

Some airlines have changed that now though. Some will upgrade their lower level frequent flyers, who don’t normally fly first, to “give them a taste” and hopefully encourage them to book a higher class going forward I.e the example above. Others have adopted an algorithm that upgrades on spend, not status (as if you play the game you can often achieve status without spending as much or by other methods e.g credit card spend).

[The Fun Researcher]

8 minutes ago, Mikew0805 said:

 

Especially since we know from the shutdown days that some ships can break even at 30-35% (I don't remember the exact percentage) occupancy according to their own earnings calls.

 

Also, going back to my days with CCL, we certainly made a profit prior to the ship departure. Also, there was less onboard opportunity to make additional $$. (Less specialty dining for example) As @BND mentioned, most of the costs were fixed regardless of pax capacity. Food for example, in many cases would either be eaten or wasted. 

Good points. 

 

Also just speaking from our personal perspective, Royal continuously asks us back to sail over and over again.  I'm sure we are on the very low end of the spending on board.  They keep asking us back despite the fact that our total folio across two cabins for our family of 5, is normally $300-$400.  The only thing we purchase in advance are a couple of soda packages.  Once every few cruises we'll do an excursion through the ship but normally book excursions direct with vendors.  After 8 (soon to be 10) cruises with Royal you would thing they would stop asking us back if they weren't making enough profit off of us.

Dan

[Engineroom Snipe]

1 minute ago, The Fun Researcher said:

Good points. 

 

Also just speaking from our personal perspective, Royal continuously asks us back to sail over and over again.  I'm sure we are on the very low end of the spending on board.  They keep asking us back despite the fact that our total folio across two cabins for our family of 5, is normally $300-$400.  The only thing we purchase in advance are a couple of soda packages.  Once every few cruises we'll do an excursion through the ship but normally book excursions direct with vendors.  After 8 (soon to be 10) cruises with Royal you would thing they would stop asking us back if they weren't making enough profit off of us.

Dan

 

I am going to be my alter ego, "used car salesman". If I am losing money on the sale, I will tackle you before you get into the car, take the keys out of your hands, and keep it on the sales lot. 😠 

 

No large corporate service entity or widget maker keeps selling at a loss to a customer over and over unless they get something in return. I would say that somehow, you are useful to them (they are making a profit on you).  😉

[Starry Eyes]

2 hours ago, billslowsky said:

This is the gospel truth!

 

The details of that trip will confound anyone trying to figure out the RoyalUp algorithm.  Canada trip out of Boston, we booked two GTY interior cabins - there was no single supplement, we took the trip both as a cheap vacation and the points got us to Diamond for the trip we took later in 2022 - free drinks motivate us.  Literally dirt cheap fare and double points.  

 

We did the minimum bid + $5 on my wife's room for balcony only, at the last minute it went through.  The keys on the door had someone else's name on them so we went to Guest Services and they changed it.  The welcoming gifts were in the other people's name, Guest Services said enjoy.  The next day they delivered a new set (water bottles and cookies) in wife's name.  We had the invite to the C&A exception in the other people's name, we went to the desk and got it in ours.  Also had the water and cookies in my interior room - I met up with the room attendant and let him know that I wasn't going to use the room other than for picking up "my" mail, so he got the week off.

 

So if there's an algorithm, good luck figuring it out.

What’s confounding?  The cruise was cheap, suggesting demand might have been low.  A cheap cruise may have drawn budget conscious people, so some may have bid little or nothing. Somebody else obviously had to cancel at the last minute.  Your wife had an active bid, so they accepted it.  Perhaps there had been many other cancellations and other higher bids had already been fulfilled.  GS did not want welcome gift back once they are in your cabin; that is not surprising.  Certain we do not know the details of the algorithm, but presumably they are trying to maximize revenue.

[Tree_skier]

5 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

 

@Tree_skier clearly the Royal Caribbean computer system likes @billslowsky much better than it like you. Like you I never win upgrade bids but I've smashed more than my share of smart TV's, laptops, and smartphones in the past.  Were you also mean to one or two of its cousins in the past? 😊

I was really hard on phones until I started investing in otter boxes. 

[mark290]

3 hours ago, PWP-001 said:

 

 

Casino comps are a very profitable way to fill empty cabins-- because they only issue them to gamblers who have a general track record of losing enough money in the casino.  It's a fluke that they hand out a comp room to someone that just drops $20 in the casino.  

 

 

 

This shows you have no idea what you are talking about. A casino does not look at how much you lost when giving out a comp, the house advantage takes care of this. A casino looks at how much you gamble and what you are gambling on. From there they know how much you will lose over time.

The odds spread out over all the gamblers takes care of the profit.