Burial at sea on future cruises due to death on board

[Krazy Kruizers]

We do not wish to be buried at sea.  The thought of being eaten by fish, sharks, etc. -- ugh.

[DeeDee Groff]

5 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

First of all, this will not happen; the four deceased on Zaandam were an anomaly. Every HAL ship has a temperature-controlled "coffin store" / morgue located on B-Deck aft. The temperature inside the morgue is regulated from the engine control room of the ship by engineering officers. I can guarantee you that there is adequate space inside this location as opposed to "one or two ice trays" and no human remains will ever be stored "next to the chicken and salad to be served that night in the MDR." There will be no human remains deposited in the ocean off Promenade deck in full view of other passengers from that deck and/or their balconies above.   

 

Death at sea from natural causes, especially on longer voyages, unfortunately is not an uncommon event. There is a strict procedure in place that is followed to the tee and includes the passenger physician preparing an initial death notification report, the security officer conducting a separate investigation, and the reporting of the event, prior arrival, to the local authorities of the next port of call for onward notification to local law enforcement. They - local LE - will conduct their own investigation upon the ship's arrival, which includes interviews with the next of kin onboard, pax physician and the SECO. The remains will then be gathered by either the land-based medical examiner (coroner's office) or a local mortuary and will be transported off the vessel with the utmost of respect afforded the deceased and his/her family. This includes ship security temporarily stopping all crew movement on A-Deck on the route to the gangway, as well as temporarily halting passenger egress and ingress at the gangway itself until the remains are inside the hearse/transport vehicle.

 

Burial at sea by the world's naval forces during times of war is a completely different experience not suitable for cruise ships  

When you have a few minutes, would you please type a reply on this thread that has your email address in a larger typeface?  I have even taken a magnifying class, but the type is so small, I cannot see it.  Thank you in advance.

[Copper10-8]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee Groff said:

When you have a few minutes, would you please type a reply on this thread that has your email address in a larger typeface?  I have even taken a magnifying class, but the type is so small, I cannot see it.  Thank you in advance.

 

copperis10.8@gmail.com

[Copper10-8]

48 minutes ago, Krazy Kruizers said:

We do not wish to be buried at sea.  The thought of being eaten by fish, sharks, etc. -- ugh.

 

a. Gill-bearing aquatic craniates aka fish 

b. Oligochaeta aka ground worms

c. The rapid oxidation of a material in the exothermic chemical process of combustion aka fire

 

Decisions, Decisions..............🤓

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, cruisetheworld67 said:

I think this may be a reality in the future.  Just as in WWII  when the US NAvy would have burials at sea.  If a passenger dies while on board....have a ceremony and then dispose of the body over board. The ceremony would be held on the Promenade deck with the Captain and chaplain officiating. The ceremony could be filmed so that the family would have a keepsake of their loved one. Plus, this would definitely save the family time and money and heartache trying to have a body shipped home from half way around the world.

 

This would be especially helpful on longer cruises if many people die on a specific cruise. Where would the crew stack the bodies? On the Zaandam, 4 people died. I am sure the Medical Center has an ice tray for 1 ...maybe 2 bodies....then what? Store the bodies in the walk -in cooler next to the chicken and salad to be served that night in the MDR???

 

Also, with any virus, I would think the safest thing would be to get rid of the body ASAP. Who knows about transmissibility the longer a corpse remains on board.....especially  multiple corpses.   I know I would not be comfortable knowing that bodies were somewhere on the ship!

As others in the industry have said, this ain't gonna happen.  There are legal requirements, including the fact that any surviving relatives that would be against a burial at sea could sue for mental anguish, etc.  Further, the onboard doctors are not authorised to issue a death certificate, so that takes care of burying anyone before the ship gets to port, any port.  The ships have special morgue trays, just like a coroner's office or a mortuary, and they will hold 4-6 bodies in refrigerated status.  If there were an unusual situation where there were more deaths than this in between two ports, one of the walk in refrigerator spaces would be emptied, and used.  But, this is highly unlikely.  And there is little danger from viral transmission from corpses.  Basically only things like Ebola or cholera can be infectious from corpses.  

4 hours ago, cruisetheworld67 said:

Disagree. The entire world is at WAR. A far worse war. The corona virus has killed 3 times as many people as US soldiers who died during the Vietnam War in a far shorter time period. And it is not over yet. The experience of death is final  during any war.

And I can say with some certainty that no one was buried at sea during the Vietnam War.  The number of deaths from Covid-19 does not justify disposing of bodies at sea, without the express wishes of the deceased and all living relatives, and while there are some instances of mass burials here in the US, these bodies will be dug up and re-interred properly.  Our technology has advanced since the 40's, but you can think of a warship in the 40's doing a burial at sea, in the same manner as an ambulance will unload a body that has died onboard, rather than carry it around doing it's "wartime" duties.

[Sir PMP]

3 hours ago, bcummin said:

On one of our ship's tours we were shown the floral storeroom and were told that was where any coffin would be stored.

Barbara

In the flower room?

[dockman]

Feed me to the fish in the sea or the worms in the dirt or burn me to a crisp.

 

I really don't care.

[kevingastreich]

5 hours ago, cruisetheworld67 said:

Disagree. The entire world is at WAR. A far worse war. The corona virus has killed 3 times as many people as US soldiers who died during the Vietnam War in a far shorter time period. And it is not over yet. The experience of death is final  during any war.

The average age of a US service member killed in Viet Nam was somewhere around 20 years old.  95% of all Covid 19 deaths worldwide are people over the age of 45. Older people are more likely to die of something, Coronavirus or not.

[asebastian]

The morgue in the Nieuw Statendam...located next to where the alcohol storage is (B deck I think). The next shot is the corridor outside the morgue. Lots of watertight doors.

 

[CruiserBruce]

17 minutes ago, kevingastreich said:

The average age of a US service member killed in Viet Nam was somewhere around 20 years old.  95% of all Covid 19 deaths worldwide are people over the age of 45. Older people are more likely to die of something, Coronavirus or not.

Not exactly..not even close...latest deaths by age is 24% over 45:

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

[kevingastreich]

16 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Not exactly..not even close...latest deaths by age is 24% over 45:

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Right, that is the same chart I used. You have to also add the 65-74 year olds at 25% and the over 75 year olds at 48%.  All told, 97% of all deaths are people 45 and older.  According to that chart you cite, less than 5% of all Corona virus deaths are of people less than 45 years old.

Edited April 18, 2020 by kevingastreich

[CruiserBruce]

30 minutes ago, kevingastreich said:

Right, that is the same chart I used. You have to also add the 65-74 year olds at 25% and the over 75 year olds at 48%.  All told, 97% of all deaths are people 45 and older.  According to that chart you cite, less than 5% of all Corona virus deaths are of people less than 45 years old.

Ooops...I was reading the wrong column. 

[bcummin]

2 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

In the flower room?

 

Yes, the refrigerated flower room.

Barbara

[rafinmd]

7 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

I too, have a copy of retired Captain Hans Mateboer's "The Captain's Log" (as well as the sequel "The Captain's Journal") and, you're right, he has a very funny writing style. The story of "Grisella" and "Anastasia" on the world cruise resulting in Anastasia's unfortunate passing and subsequent burial at sea which presented "some difficulty" to put it mildly, is an interesting one.

 

As an author, the nice captain is afforded some latitude but he does write in his intro "everything you will read has truly happened". By his own description of the story of the two sisters, he was not yet a captain and his first such world cruise was "twenty years ago." He had been employed for five years, and world cruises "started in New York" because "it's tradition." In addition, he has also worked for other cruise lines besides HAL. Bottom line, burials at sea are not being done by HAL and haven't been done in a long time, if ever

Just finished "Buster"  Oh my God.

 

Roy

[Himself]

9 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

First of all, this will not happen; the four deceased on Zaandam were an anomaly. Every HAL ship has a temperature-controlled "coffin store" / morgue located on B-Deck aft. The temperature inside the morgue is regulated from the engine control room of the ship by engineering officers. I can guarantee you that there is adequate space inside this location as opposed to "one or two ice trays" and no human remains will ever be stored "next to the chicken and salad to be served that night in the MDR." There will be no human remains deposited in the ocean off Promenade deck in full view of other passengers from that deck and/or their balconies above.   

 

Death at sea from natural causes, especially on longer voyages, unfortunately is not an uncommon event. There is a strict procedure in place that is followed to the tee and includes the passenger physician preparing an initial death notification report, the security officer conducting a separate investigation, and the reporting of the event, prior arrival, to the local authorities of the next port of call for onward notification to local law enforcement. They - local LE - will conduct their own investigation upon the ship's arrival, which includes interviews with the next of kin onboard, pax physician and the SECO. The remains will then be gathered by either the land-based medical examiner (coroner's office) or a local mortuary and will be transported off the vessel with the utmost of respect afforded the deceased and his/her family. This includes ship security temporarily stopping all crew movement on A-Deck on the route to the gangway, as well as temporarily halting passenger egress and ingress at the gangway itself until the remains are inside the hearse/transport vehicle.

 

Burial at sea by the world's naval forces during times of war is a completely different experience not suitable for cruise ships  

John:   Thank you for showing a little light on a very sensitive matter.  In '96 when I first began my Ministry at sea, I was told  that one in five cruises will have a death on board.

[cruisetheworld67]

16 hours ago, Krazy Kruizers said:

We do not wish to be buried at sea.  The thought of being eaten by fish, sharks, etc. -- ugh.

YEs....much more preferable to be buried 6 feet under dirt and after some time as the embalming fluid oozes from your pores and your body begins to decay; the worms and maggots chew on your decaying corpse. I understand.  Not like you will know the difference if a worm takes a bite out of you or a shark.🦈

[Copper10-8]

16 hours ago, asebastian said:

The morgue in the Nieuw Statendam...located next to where the alcohol storage is (B deck I think). The next shot is the corridor outside the morgue. Lots of watertight doors.

 

 

 

You must have been on the official tour 😉

 

The ships are divided into fire zones throughout all decks and, below the waterline, those zones are divided by watertight doors (the two yellow/black diagonal ones visible here) which can be opened and closed remotely (from the bridge) and/or manually. When they do close. an audible alarm is sounded, as well as a flashing red light illuminated,  and it's definitely not a good idea to try to rush through a closing watertight door since the door will win that game with potentially disastrous results. There is a core of officers who have received formal training to be designated as (manual) watertight door operators. The watertight doors are always closed when the ship enters and leaves port and are once again opened when the ship is securely alongside her berth. One of the spaces located below the waterline is the laundry with the always hard working laundry master and his crew.

 

What else is visible in this pic of B-Deck are two stores (freight) elevators (surrounded by the red safety gates) on the left and, opposite from them (silver doors), cold storage rooms. The red cabinet on the left contains a fire hose. The purpose of the yellow gates is for protection against overzealous (electric) forklift and hand pallet jack operators bouncing those devices off the walls potentially causing dents and damage. While in port engages in stores loading (and off-loading) those onboard forklifts are operated by longshoremen. Unlike passenger decks, you won't find any carpet on the crew deck corridors of A through D-Decks. A-Deck is universally known as "I-95" because it runs almost unobstructed between the bow and stern 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Copper10-8

[chengkp75]

John, don't know how many times I've had to correct crew who think the watertight doors are like elevator doors, and will reverse when they meet an obstruction.  The door is operated by 3000 psi hydraulics, and will not stop moving in the closed direction until it is jammed into a wedge shaped door jamb, and the hydraulic pressure builds all the way up.  NCL had a crew member die from being cut in half when his coveralls caught while crossing a closing door, and Princess had someone lose a hand the same way.  I know that on NCL, none of the doors outside the engine room were allowed to be opened while at sea, except for emergencies, but that the 12 or so doors in the engine room were routinely opened and closed as the motormen went about their duties.

[USN59-79]

While burial at sea may not be performed from a cruise ship, it is quite possible to arrange burial at sea from a U.S. Navy ship at the present time.  EPA regulations state that the ship must be more than three miles from shore.  As a retired Navy person, both I and my spouse are entitled according to Navy regulations.  The remains can either be intact or cremated.  However, we have arranged to be buried at a National Veteran's Cemetary.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, USN59-79 said:

While burial at sea may not be performed from a cruise ship, it is quite possible to arrange burial at sea from a U.S. Navy ship at the present time.  EPA regulations state that the ship must be more than three miles from shore.  As a retired Navy person, both I and my spouse are entitled according to Navy regulations.  The remains can either be intact or cremated.  However, we have arranged to be buried at a National Veteran's Cemetary.

Burial at sea, for cremains, is allowed to be performed from a cruise ship.  The OP's suggestion of putting bodies over the side is not allowed, unlike the Navy, so there has to be the cremation step first.  But, again, the first hoop to jump through is to get a death certificate, which cannot be done onboard.  The second hoop is that it has to be the deceased's legal desire to be buried at sea.  Where would the coffins come from?  I don't think anyone would like to stand at the rail on a cruise ship, while a body of their loved one is sent over the side in an old mattress cover with a shackle for weight, which is what the Navy does in times of war past.  There was always the danger that the shackle would rip through the "fart sack", and the body would be left floating away.  Very pretty sight from the aft balconies on the ship.

[TexasBrit]

FWIW, on my transatlantic crossing in 1968, there was a burial at sea. I happened to be out on an upper deck aft, waiting for the late dining room sitting, and was asked to leave the area due to the burial about to take place below on the crew deck. As I did not see it, I don't know anything about the ceremony, procedure etc.

 

I asked about this to one of the waiters who was from my home town and I had become friendly with. He mentioned that it happened sometimes due to the large number of elderly people on the ship on each crossing. This was a passenger liner for transport, not a cruise ship for recreation/vacation. 

[pralientje]

As a child I used to live in Indonesia. Every two years we went back to the Netherlands by ship. I witnessed, with all other passengers present, a buriel at sea.

Ten years ago I was on a sailing trip from Papeete to Monaco, and in the second week one of the passengers passed away. She and her husband were avid sailors and the whole family agreed to a buriel at sea. This was done early in the morning, without passengers being present. 

A year later the couple's children and husband met with the captain, to thank him for everything he had done to make this possible.

Both times will never be forgotten by me.

[sfaaa]

Now the serious stuff. Will my estate get a refund on my unused OBC and shore excursion tickets if I check out early and get dumped over the side of promenade deck? 

[Tampa Girl]

58 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

Now the serious stuff. Will my estate get a refund on my unused OBC and shore excursion tickets if I check out early and get dumped over the side of promenade deck? 

 

Only if you you have filed a formal "in case of" request by the time of final payment.  😊

[Aquahound]

59 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

Now the serious stuff. Will my estate get a refund on my unused OBC and shore excursion tickets if I check out early and get dumped over the side of promenade deck? 

 

Just make sure you aren't dumped in US waters.  Otherwise CBP would seize your unused OBC to pay for your PVSA violation.