Will vaccines now be required?

[larry_s_taco]

3 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

I agree with the other points and more than possible for cruises outside the EU but cruises inside the EU are subject to EU law not US laws, the CDC or company policy, and EU law is quite clear when it comes to free movement of EU citizens within the EU. It may well be that EU citizens will not need to be vaccinated for EU cruises but for passengers from outside the EU they may well need to be vaccinated.

 

 

EU human rights laws and freedom of movement laws would have to be changed to have only vaccinated cruises within the EU.

 

On a med cruise staying within the EU it would mean only if a country in the EU makes a covid-19 vaccination requirement for entry would a cruise line be able to have a vaccine requirement. If a country did this they would be in breach of EU law in regards to free movement of EU citizens. 

 

If a cruise started in the EU and went to country outside the EU that mandated a vaccination for entry then the cruise line could have a vaccination policy. 

 

Denmark are looking at mandatory vaccinations for its citizens however it has already recognised that under EU law that non Denmark EU citizens who choose to live and work in Denmark can not be legally obliged to have the vaccine. 

 

12 EU countries have compulsory vaccination laws for it's own citizens however under EU law these cannot be enforced on other EU citizens from other countries living and working there. 

 

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/07/will-any-countries-in-europe-make-the-covid-vaccine-compulsory

 

So you think that with all of the deaths, and lockdowns that the laws won't be changed? That seems kind of short sighted.

[nomad098]

1 hour ago, larry_s_taco said:

So you think that with all of the deaths, and lockdowns that the laws won't be changed? That seems kind of short sighted.

 

I agree, most people outside the EU and a fair number inside don't realise how desperately the bureaucracy/eurocrats will stick to their ideals and rules.

 

EU's response to the UK travel ban by member states of the EU after the discovery of a new strain of covid-19 in the UK. After all rules are rules.

 

 Until the end of December, free movement rules still apply to the UK. This means that Member States should not in principle refuse the entry of persons travelling from the UK. After the end of the transition period, the UK will be subject to Council Recommendation on the temporary restriction on non-essential travel into the EU and the possible lifting of such restriction.

 

And the principle of free movement of EU citizens is one of the rules they hold the dearest, covid or no covid.  

 

To give you an idea how bad the EU bureaucracy laws and rules are, when the pandemic first started in Italy and Italy was begging the EU for help at the end of March, the only help at the time was coming from Russia, Cuba and China, the EU bureaucrats visited Italy not to help and provide financial or material assistance with Italy's pandemic needs but to impose a fine of about 7.5 million Euros for state aid to Sardinian hoteliers in 2008.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1259506/George-Galloway-EU-Brussels-fine-Italy-Sardinia-coronavirus-pandemic-COVID-19-latest

 

I do not believe the EU's bureaucracy will allow cruise lines to introduce a vaccination requirement that in any way interferes with their free movement of EU citizens within the Schengen area.  

 

[Covepointcruiser]

Great to see on the U.S. news today that 1 million have now been vaccinated in our country and only 3 have had severe allergic reactions.   Sounds like the odds are good that we can be vaccinated without much chance of an allergic reaction.   Can’t wait to get mine.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

I do not believe the EU's bureaucracy will allow cruise lines to introduce a vaccination requirement that in any way interferes with their free movement of EU citizens within the Schengen area.  

 

How does your statement square with the measures taken by individual EU countries during the pandemic?  According to the EU Parliament's own official website:  "The free movement of persons is one of the fundamental achievements of the European Union, but one which has been restricted during the COVID-19 pandemic. In order to prevent the spread of the COVID-19 virus, Member States have adopted measures that have impacted on the free movement of persons."

 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2020-004869_EN.html

 

What makes you think they wouldn't extend this further (e.g., vaccination) in order to help halt the COVID pandemic?

[nomad098]

Good news the Astrazeneca jab will apparently be available from the 4th of January in the UK

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-vaccine/uk-to-roll-out-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-from-jan-4-sunday-telegraph-says-idUSKBN2900KR

 

 

[nomad098]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

How does your statement square with the measures taken by individual EU countries during the pandemic?  According to the EU Parliament's own official website:  "The free movement of persons is one of the fundamental achievements of the European Union, but one which has been restricted during the COVID-19 pandemic. In order to prevent the spread of the COVID-19 virus, Member States have adopted measures that have impacted on the free movement of persons."

 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2020-004869_EN.html

 

What makes you think they wouldn't extend this further (e.g., vaccination) in order to help halt the COVID pandemic?

 

Because the EU institutions are not the countries it represents, when countries do not do what the EU institutions want then sanctions and threats follow. 

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/07/should-eu-sanction-its-member-states.html

 

Countries do what's in their own best interests, EU institutions do what they believe is in the best interest of the European Union not what's in an individual countries best interest.

 

If you read the full question Maria Grapini Member of the European Parliament is asking is what the EU institutions will do to encourage the member states to follow the EU institutions recommendations these include free movement of people and trade irrespective of covid-19 and to make countries within the EU report covid-19 cases and deaths in the manner set out by the EU institutions not by an individual countries own recommendations.

Maria Grapini wants free movement restored as this has a serious impact on Romania 

 

Covid vaccination to travel within the Schengen area is completely at odds with the EU's institutions principles, if a member country goes against the EU's ideals sanctions follow.

 

[TeeRick]

14 hours ago, nomad098 said:

Good news the Astrazeneca jab will apparently be available from the 4th of January in the UK

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-vaccine/uk-to-roll-out-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-from-jan-4-sunday-telegraph-says-idUSKBN2900KR

 

 

So I wonder what dosing will the UK use for the AZ/Oxford vaccine?  The 1/2 dose followed by the full dose?

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

So I wonder what dosing will the UK use for the AZ/Oxford vaccine?  The 1/2 dose followed by the full dose?

 

I read an article this morning that said they had adjusted the dose, that it will be as effective as the first two approved vaccines but they won't release what that exactly means  as far as the doses until they report on the trial to the UK authority.

[nomad098]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

So I wonder what dosing will the UK use for the AZ/Oxford vaccine?  The 1/2 dose followed by the full dose?

 

41 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

I read an article this morning that said they had adjusted the dose, that it will be as effective as the first two approved vaccines but they won't release what that exactly means  as far as the doses until they report on the trial to the UK authority.

 

Same as Charles4515 all we are getting from the Astrazeneca

 

 Pascal Soriot, chief executive of AstraZeneca, told the Sunday Times: "We think we have figured out the winning formula and how to get efficacy that, after two doses, is up there with everybody else.

 

"I can't tell you more because we will publish at some point."

 

https://news.sky.com/story/astrazeneca-boss-we-think-weve-figured-out-winning-formula-for-covid-vaccine-12173341

[TeeRick]

44 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

 

Same as Charles4515 all we are getting from the Astrazeneca

 

 Pascal Soriot, chief executive of AstraZeneca, told the Sunday Times: "We think we have figured out the winning formula and how to get efficacy that, after two doses, is up there with everybody else.

 

"I can't tell you more because we will publish at some point."

 

https://news.sky.com/story/astrazeneca-boss-we-think-weve-figured-out-winning-formula-for-covid-vaccine-12173341

I have seen this today as it is widely reported.  But if the CEO knows the data from completed trials about to be submitted to MHRA, how is that different than what was already reported?  The US phase 3 and other trials are still ongoing and blinded. 

[dreaminofcruisin]

7 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I have seen this today as it is widely reported.  But if the CEO knows the data from completed trials about to be submitted to MHRA, how is that different than what was already reported?  The US phase 3 and other trials are still ongoing and blinded. 

 

The fact that the CEO is out trying to gain PR without facts makes me nervous. I certainly hope that the FDA requires good sound scientific trials before approving this one....it just seems like they haven't been very careful in their phase 3 studies and not sure they have the numbers to support their claims. Too bad because when this all started, I did think this one would be the 'winner', but too many things are now making me skeptical.... 😒

[TeeRick]

12 hours ago, dreaminofcruisin said:

 

The fact that the CEO is out trying to gain PR without facts makes me nervous. I certainly hope that the FDA requires good sound scientific trials before approving this one....it just seems like they haven't been very careful in their phase 3 studies and not sure they have the numbers to support their claims. Too bad because when this all started, I did think this one would be the 'winner', but too many things are now making me skeptical.... 😒

I tend to think that in the US, the FDA will not review an EUA request for the AZ vaccine until the US phase 3 trials are completed.  It has been estimated as Feb 2021 for data to be available.

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/covid-19-shots-from-astrazeneca-and-j-j-must-succeed-to-meet-us-vaccination-goal-slaoui

[caymancouple]

For those wondering about a penicillin allergy and the shot.  I just this morning got the Moderna shot, it even said on my paperwork that I was allergic to penicillin and no one said a word.

[lyndarra]

IMHO cruising/travelling  with or without a vaccine will be one of many factors to be considered. Travelling to other countries may depend on how the traveller's country of origin is handling the pandemic and the odds of the traveller's potential infectious status.

Here in Oz our borders are closed to foreign travellers but with some exemptions. Citizens returning are subject to 2 weeks strict, mandatory,  quarantine in designated hotels at their own expense. We are now seeing increasing numbers of citizens arriving and testing positive.

The best we can hope for, at least for 2021, minimum, is travel  "travel bubbles" for agreed between various countries. I can't see being vaccinated changing this.

[Diamond lover]

On 12/26/2020 at 6:28 PM, Covepointcruiser said:

Great to see on the U.S. news today that 1 million have now been vaccinated in our country and only 3 have had severe allergic reactions.   Sounds like the odds are good that we can be vaccinated without much chance of an allergic reaction.   Can’t wait to get mine.

I feel the same....bring it on!

 

 I have thought a lot about this topic, and I have concluded I believe we WILL have to be vaccinated before ever cruising again.   Right or wrong, making us happy or sad, they will have no other choice.....if they want to actually stop in any ports!

 

Public Health safety cannot afford to grant exceptions.  And it sucks for the, lets say 1% of cruisers who desperately WANT to get vaccinated, but for personal reasons cannot.  But I don’t see cruise lines ever ba in business without this requirement.

[larry_s_taco]

This is not very detailed, but it is food for thought: 

What you need to know about vaccine passports (msn.com)

[ipeeinthepool]

On 12/26/2020 at 10:31 AM, morechances said:

...... I have a right to cruise without getting vaccinations. 

 

I don't agree.  You certainly have a right not to be vaccinated, but nowhere do you have a right to cruise.  You may well sacrifice your right to cruise if you haven't been vaccinated.  No one wants their cruise to be disrupted because you chose not to get vaccinated and the cruise has to be disrupted to take you to port or to quarantine any of your close contacts.

 

If you don't get vaccinated I hope the cruise lines leave you on the dock.

[drarill]

On 12/29/2020 at 3:32 PM, caymancouple said:

For those wondering about a penicillin allergy and the shot.  I just this morning got the Moderna shot, it even said on my paperwork that I was allergic to penicillin and no one said a word.

I'm allergic to shell fish and also got Moderna's  on a "drive through" vaccination clinic for MDs and DMDs. Was told to wait 15 min. after the shot if I didn't have any history of allergies and 30 min. if I did have a history of allergies.  I had my Epi-Pen ready but didn't need it.  

We won't consider any type of traveling before we are fully vaccinated. DH will get his second Pfizer shot next week and I have to wait two more for mine... still, nothing planned right now.  

[ighten]

IM not quite sure how the cruise lines will enforce this other than adding to  the usual current means of a bit of paper at the dock asking have you been ill recently with have you been vaccinated recently tick box.

I have yet to see any country agree on any offical passport register other than Spain and even they have said that this was taken out of context this morning and wont be registered at all.

 

2 points occur - If I choose to tour/visit a country/cruise with the vaccination and some person for whatever reason (from idiocy to validity) then catches it that should not invalidate the cruise..  Its currently not an issue if I visiit/tour/cruise in countries where yellow fever,malaria etc are required.. Its the persons fault not mine or the cruise lines..

 

The other though is we are going to have a lot of govts for a few years all trying to implement different rules - I think this is going ot be the bigger problem for cruise lines especially as some countries are going to be years behind on the vaccination system.

[morechances]

10 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I don't agree.  You certainly have a right not to be vaccinated, but nowhere do you have a right to cruise.  You may well sacrifice your right to cruise if you haven't been vaccinated.  No one wants their cruise to be disrupted because you chose not to get vaccinated and the cruise has to be disrupted to take you to port or to quarantine any of your close contacts.

 

If you don't get vaccinated I hope the cruise lines leave you on the dock.

If you choose to use my quote, please use it completely!

You left out the first part where I pointed out that this would be something that a wacko rights person would say.

You are the reason we have fake news!

[nomad098]

10 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I don't agree.  You certainly have a right not to be vaccinated, but nowhere do you have a right to cruise.  You may well sacrifice your right to cruise if you haven't been vaccinated.  No one wants their cruise to be disrupted because you chose not to get vaccinated and the cruise has to be disrupted to take you to port or to quarantine any of your close contacts.

 

If you don't get vaccinated I hope the cruise lines leave you on the dock.

 

I agree no one has the right to cruise,

 

you could also disrupt the cruise if you have been vaccinated and you happen to be one of the 5% or it may turn out you can be vaccinated and still be a carrier. These would also cause a cruise to not call at a port or be required to be quarantined.

 

It is quite possible that an unvaccinated person who has had covid-19 poses less of a risk than a vaccinated person who has not been exposed to the disease before the cruise.

 

So much is still unknown,

 

looking at what is happening in Europe unless your prepared to go on a cruise with a mixture of vaccinated and unvaccinated people you will not be cruising the med for a long while yet.

 

If a vaccination becomes a requirement it is quite possible that mass market cruise lines are just not viable in the future. 

 

[ipeeinthepool]

1 hour ago, morechances said:

If you choose to use my quote, please use it completely!

You left out the first part where I pointed out that this would be something that a wacko rights person would say.

You are the reason we have fake news!

 

My apologies for mis-quoting you.   Sorry I mistook you for a wacko.

[phoenix_dream]

4 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

I agree no one has the right to cruise,

 

you could also disrupt the cruise if you have been vaccinated and you happen to be one of the 5% or it may turn out you can be vaccinated and still be a carrier. These would also cause a cruise to not call at a port or be required to be quarantined.

 

It is quite possible that an unvaccinated person who has had covid-19 poses less of a risk than a vaccinated person who has not been exposed to the disease before the cruise.

 

So much is still unknown,

 

looking at what is happening in Europe unless your prepared to go on a cruise with a mixture of vaccinated and unvaccinated people you will not be cruising the med for a long while yet.

 

If a vaccination becomes a requirement it is quite possible that mass market cruise lines are just not viable in the future. 

 

There is so much we don't know.  For example, once cruise lines begin to require vaccinations (which I suspect they will) perhaps there will no longer be a need to quarantine an entire ship, or group of close contacts just because one instance of the virus surfaces.  Ports may initially prevent ships from docking in these cases, but this virus will likely be with us for generations to come.  There is no way they will be able to continue to do that type of thing if they expect to survive - many of the Caribbean islands, for example, depend heavily on cruise ship income.  

[terrydtx]

16 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I don't agree.  You certainly have a right not to be vaccinated, but nowhere do you have a right to cruise.  You may well sacrifice your right to cruise if you haven't been vaccinated.  No one wants their cruise to be disrupted because you chose not to get vaccinated and the cruise has to be disrupted to take you to port or to quarantine any of your close contacts.

 

If you don't get vaccinated I hope the cruise lines leave you on the dock.

I Agree,

Edited December 31, 2020 by terrydtx

[morechances]

6 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

My apologies for mis-quoting you.   Sorry I mistook you for a wacko.

There are certainly some days that I wonder if I am.  😄