CLIA vs CDC

[travelhound]

2 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

The cruise lines need to sue the CDC.  They're essentially being blackmailed and extorted.

 

The CDC will never let the cruise lines get back to normal otherwise

Unfortunately, I think it's going to require a change of leadership at the CDC.

[klfrodo]

CLIA has 1 client and 1 goal. The promotion and profitability of the Cruise Line industry.

CDC on the other hand has the health, safety, and well-being of an entire nation.

 

While the CDC may have made some missteps in this entirely new and unprecedented pandemic, I'll go with the CDC here.

[binro01]

In general, I find the people in government work are the bottom of the barrel in their chosen field. It usually is an indication that they could not succeed in the private sector of their business for whatever reason.

They could be highly educated and highly intelligent, but just unable to work in a collaborative environment. I call these the "purple cloaks" in the governmental agencies. Those people clocked in purple think they are the rulers and of royalty and need to be treated as such.

In general, worry when someone is in a government job. Most Doctors, or virologists, or scientists, went into that field never uttered they wanted to be in a governmental agency upon entry into those fields.

[UNCFanatik]

12 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

CLIA has 1 client and 1 goal. The promotion and profitability of the Cruise Line industry.

CDC on the other hand has the health, safety, and well-being of an entire nation.

 

While the CDC may have made some missteps in this entirely new and unprecedented pandemic, I'll go with the CDC here.

 

Yeah, the CDC is doing a GREAT job!!! 

 

And you do realize that the safety and well being of the cruise line consumers leads to more profitability. Its in the CLIA's best interest to create protocols to protect their customer base. 

 

Whereas the CDC has become a politically driven organization where public health has become secondary.

[klfrodo]

4 minutes ago, binro01 said:

In general, I find the people in government work are the bottom of the barrel in their chosen field. It usually is an indication that they could not succeed in the private sector of their business for whatever reason.

They could be highly educated and highly intelligent, but just unable to work in a collaborative environment. I call these the "purple cloaks" in the governmental agencies. Those people clocked in purple think they are the rulers and of royalty and need to be treated as such.

In general, worry when someone is in a government job. Most Doctors, or virologists, or scientists, went into that field never uttered they wanted to be in a governmental agency upon entry into those fields.

I find that line of thinking to be very ignorant. 

I used to work at the VA. Most of the people who work at the VA choose to work there because of the patient population they care for. Many of them are themselves veterans. Many of them could easily get jobs elsewhere but choose not to for various reasons. Most of the Doctors I know who work for the VA also work at your local Universities either as Professors or are researchers in their respective fields of expertise. Some of them are just doing their residency also.

[binro01]

14 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

also work at your local Universities

Those that do, do, those that don't teach. This also holds true for government work. There is zero accountability and almost near zero fear of loss of employment, which breeds poor outcomes.

I went to a highly prestigious University (in the top 10 of the rankings by US News). The people at the top and middle tiers  of the class, went into the private sector. The ones that were at the bottom, went into government. This was well known with the students, and the governmental agencies that were at the job fares.

There might be a few that go for altruistic reasons. But they are a huge minority and are constantly having to remind themselves of the altruistic reason why they are there. When you find one of them, especially in the VA, hold on to them like a black diamond. Because they are extremely rare and valuable. I know this too, because my wife is a veteran and uses the VA system from time to time (we do it rarely because it is bureaucratic and the level of service is not the same as my private insurance hospitals and doctors, but sometimes we can't escape it when it comes to her disabilities that are service related that need to be documented. I also remember my Grandfather who was a WW2 vet, and ran over by a tank that had to deal with the VA and their doctors and hospitals from time to time. It was a nightmare. Have you ever had to used the VA? Or do you just know the doctors and staff involved.

[coaster]

CLIA didn't so themselves any favors by not creating  the same vaccination and mask protocols among their member lines. Just leads to confusion and trust issues to those who continue to sail. CLIA exists to unite and be one voice for their member lines. They failed in this area. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by coaster

[Tolkmit]

38 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

CLIA has 1 client and 1 goal. The promotion and profitability of the Cruise Line industry.

CDC on the other hand has the health, safety, and well-being of an entire nation.

 

While the CDC may have made some missteps in this entirely new and unprecedented pandemic, I'll go with the CDC here.

 

The CDC doesn't make decisions. Individuals who work for the CDC do. Lower level individuals whose goal is to get promoted, and higher level individuals whose goals are political. Pretending that the CDC is a monolith, or that the individuals who work for it somehow cease having normal human psychology and suddenly become altruistic purveyors of their organizations stated goals, is just silly.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

The cruise lines need to sue the CDC.  They're essentially being blackmailed and extorted.

 

The CDC will never let the cruise lines get back to normal otherwise

 

4 hours ago, BND said:

All kinds of restrictions are being dropped all over the country and some places overseas.  This just shows that the CDC has issues with cruising.  Rates are dropping dramatically.

 

3 hours ago, RFerrington said:

Actually, this doesn't sound so bad !  No vax requirements, no testing....just masks...  Ok

What is to sue about?  The CDC is saying that if you want to opt out of the voluntary CSO program, with its vaccination and testing requirements, okay, then you are general transportation, which must have masks at all times, regardless of vaccination status.  All types of public and commercial transportation, buses, trains, planes, and ships (all ships of all types of all nations) have been operating under this program for a year now.  Guess what, no one has made a peep about the hundreds of thousands of merchant mariners who have had to comply with this, but suddenly, whoa, its affecting my vacation, sue somebody.

 

The CDC is also saying that if a cruise ship wishes to remove a mask mandate, then they need to meet the "vaccination standard of excellence", which is 95% of pax and crew vaccinated and boosted.  That's all it takes to get rid of the masks.

[nelblu]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:42 AM, Milwaukee Eight said:

I’m going by the words of our President. He said he was hopeful a small group of family to could meet outdoors on 4th of July for a BBQ.  Did I quote him wrong?

 

It was either Thursday or Friday that the Director of the CDC was asked about masks. She recommended/suggested two masks. 

 

M8

And yet the liberal state of New Jersey is eliminating the masks mandate for schoolchildren effective March 1.  Other liberal states in the Northeast are following suit.

[Tatka]

4 minutes ago, nelblu said:

And yet the liberal state of New Jersey is eliminating the masks mandate for schoolchildren effective March 1.  Other liberal states in the Northeast are following suit.

 

Yes. On state level. Local mandates are up to locals

[Starry Eyes]

18 minutes ago, coaster said:

CLIA didn't so themselves any favors by not creating  the same vaccination and mask protocols among their member lines. Just leads to confusion and trust issues to those who continue to sail. CLIA exists to unite and be one voice for their member lines. They failed in this area. 

While I can understand that different cruiselines having different protocols might confuse some, it also increases the odds that some cruiseline created a protocol that fits your personal idea/situation.

 

Your party is all vaccinated and you want everyone else aboard to be vaccinated, too…a cruiseline did that.  

Your friend wants to travel with a kid too young to be vaccinated, the cruiseline above did not work but another did.

 

Of course the lines are switching up their rules as the situation evolves.  That adds to the confusion as much as different rules for different lines, I think.

[klfrodo]

31 minutes ago, binro01 said:

 Have you ever had to used the VA? Or do you just know the doctors and staff involved.

I use the VA for 99% of my healthcare needs.

Before I turned over my healthcare to the VA, I used my civilian insurance.

I was just another number. 15 minutes max with my doctor. Oh, we need to run a test, opps, the insurance won't approve of it. Doctor would prescribe medications, some wannabe at the pharmacy wants to change my medication because they want to issue a cheaper medication.

 

At the VA, they schedule an hour for my annual physical. If we don't need the entire hour, we talk about anything else. I'm in the process of getting genetic testing for specific cancer marker thru the VA which prior had been denied my insurance provider. I'm currently taking Enbrel which Optum refused  in the past but is now being received thru the VA pharmacy. (at no cost BTW. Projected out of pocket expense with medicare was $78K)

I've had surgeries with the VA. I will admit that since the VA is a teaching facility, my time with the VA was a little more extensive than my experience with surgeries at a civilian facility but then again, the civilian facility is for profit. Get them in, get them out.

[scottnkim]

And the CDC gets most of its guidance from non other than Dr Fauci, who just yesterday said-                     

Fauci told the paper that there is no way to eradicate the virus, but it is his hope that "we are looking at a time when we have enough people vaccinated and enough people with protection from previous infection that the Covid restrictions will soon be a thing of the past."

He also said it may not been needed for all Americans to get boosted in the future.

"It will depend on who you are," he said. "But if you are a normal, healthy 30-year-old person with no underlying conditions, you might need a booster only every four or five years."

   

So again- why would anyone mandate that which MIGHT not be beneficial for everyone?   Hasn't medicine ALWAYS been a discussion between the patient and his/her own physician?

 

[smokeybandit]

After reading the new voluntary CSO terms, cruise lines would be absolutely nuts to opt in.

[crazyank]

3 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

Whereas the CDC has become a politically driven organization where public health has become secondary.

Absolutely correct!

[BND]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

 Guess what, no one has made a peep about the hundreds of thousands of merchant mariners who have had to comply with this, but suddenly, whoa, its affecting my vacation, sue somebody.

 

 

Why would anyone who isn't a merchant marine be making noise about it? It's up to them not anyone who isn't the least bit impacted.

Edited February 10, 2022 by BND

[dswallow]

Federal law basically prohibits cruise ships from being used for transportation. They are floating hotels that visit ports and return. Heck, Federal law prohibits them from just going out to sea and returning, really.

 

The CDC is being blatantly hostile with cruise lines. There's absolutely no basis for it considering every single other industry anywhere is not under those rules, or even under any obligation to test and/or report. And any mention whatsoever of these being voluntary gets a wink-wink nudge-nudge concerning how they'll bring the hammer down in any way possible if they don't "voluntarily" comply.

[ONECRUISER]

4 hours ago, klfrodo said:

I find that line of thinking to be very ignorant. 

I used to work at the VA. Most of the people who work at the VA choose to work there because of the patient population they care for. Many of them are themselves veterans. Many of them could easily get jobs elsewhere but choose not to for various reasons. Most of the Doctors I know who work for the VA also work at your local Universities either as Professors or are researchers in their respective fields of expertise. Some of them are just doing their residency also.

Well said. Spent 2yrs at VA myself, most people there are not in it for the money and definitely not Bottom of the Barrel. They could make ton more spending their time in Private Practice but are there for us...

[kearney]

52 minutes ago, dswallow said:

Federal law basically prohibits cruise ships from being used for transportation. They are floating hotels that visit ports and return. Heck, Federal law prohibits them from just going out to sea and returning, really.

 

The CDC is being blatantly hostile with cruise lines. There's absolutely no basis for it considering every single other industry anywhere is not under those rules, or even under any obligation to test and/or report. And any mention whatsoever of these being voluntary gets a wink-wink nudge-nudge concerning how they'll bring the hammer down in any way possible if they don't "voluntarily" comply.

I believe you were one of the people back on early threads about the FL vs CDC lawsuit.... do you know how that ended or if it did end... it seemed to go quiet at one point and then the CSO expired and there were no updates..at least that I heard.... the last thing I recall was the CDC kinda threatening cruise lines saying x was voluntary but implying we can make your life hell in other ways (my phrasing)... then as I recall FL brought that to the judge and he responded with something like... well come back when they actually do something....  Anyway.. I have been wondering what happened...if anything

[jl88]

Imagine what current cruise situation would be if ships  had sailed with no CDC guidance.  Cruise lines  (and all of us) like to trash CDC but without protocols in place, ships would not be nearly as  safe and many more covid cases/deaths would have occurred and many would choose to not cruise. 

If only everyone in USA could get on the same page instead of trying to be experts on their own, we could benefit as country - in terms of health/ economy/ freedom.

What ever happened to individual responsibility as requisite for freedom in America.

 

[BND]

2 minutes ago, jl88 said:

Imagine what current cruise situation would be if ships  had sailed with no CDC guidance.  Cruise lines  (and all of us) like to trash CDC but without protocols in place, ships would not be nearly as  safe and many more covid cases/deaths would have occurred and many would choose to not cruise. 

 

 

 

No one knows that for a fact.  

[smokeybandit]

8 minutes ago, jl88 said:

Imagine what current cruise situation would be if ships  had sailed with no CDC guidance.  Cruise lines  (and all of us) like to trash CDC but without protocols in place, ships would not be nearly as  safe and many more covid cases/deaths would have occurred and many would choose to not cruise. 

If only everyone in USA could get on the same page instead of trying to be experts on their own, we could benefit as country - in terms of health/ economy/ freedom.

What ever happened to individual responsibility as requisite for freedom in America.

 

Yeah cruise ships might be like everyday USA instead of one of the places you'll least likely get covid. Then again the CDC says you're very likely to get covid on a cruise ship anyway.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by smokeybandit

[coaster]

I trust the guidance more of an organization that has no profit motive.  Following the money trail has always formed my opinion.

Edited February 10, 2022 by coaster

[At Sea At Peace]

9 minutes ago, jl88 said:

Imagine what current cruise situation would be if ships  had sailed with no CDC guidance.  Cruise lines  (and all of us) like to trash CDC but without protocols in place, ships would not be nearly as  safe and many more covid cases/deaths would have occurred and many would choose to not cruise. 

If only everyone in USA could get on the same page instead of trying to be experts on their own, we could benefit as country - in terms of health/ economy/ freedom.

What ever happened to individual responsibility as requisite for freedom in America.

 

 

Probably the unique heritage and tradition of the freedom to individually and responsibly make one's own decisions?

 

In the past, pursuit and maintenance of 'such' freedom has been beholden, adorned and beloved and many have died or been maimed defending such.

 

Now, some would assert the same 'such' are heretics.

 

Alternate models where everyone is required to be on the same page is not freedom based and is, by choice, available in geographic locations should one want such.

 

IMO, it is absurd what the CDC en garde assault is specifically on the cruise industry as the rest of the world, including most of the US states 'move on' to management of a morphing 'endemic.

 

Some might say, well it impacts Florida, Texas and Alaska the most.  So....

 

IMO, it is much more deep seated.  Simply, 'cruising' is being lensed as 'inequitable' and for that there is no panacea.  It's an experience by choice of the middle class (obviously others as well) that is deemed by some as unnecessary and bedeviling on many societal and social fronts.  No matter that the higher tier of the highest class enjoys the finance-based entitlement to massive fleets of yachts on our lakes and in our shores' oceans.  It is primarily suppositional that marginally number of cruise ships alone denigrate the seas while the mega-flotilla of private yachts are simply viewed in a perverse beatification.

 

Such is life.