An Issue with Celebrity’s Plan?

[luckyinpa]

6 minutes ago, dallasdan said:

I believe New York has the same laws as Texas.  You cannot purchase the beverage plan until day 2 of the cruise.  

 

wow i never knew that. ive only ever had the free ncl plan and thats just included on their cruises. thats nuts that you gotta wait till you are outside NYC to buy a package. i saw all the tables throughout the ship selling the packages though. i guess they were on a delayed basis then. cannot imagine people are happy spending money for booze that should be free with their packages

[cscurlock]

2 minutes ago, kstetser said:

I don't think my governor (Murphy NJ) will have any issue with cruises sailing from Port Liberty with the vaccination requirement.

This,  there is 0 issue in other states.  Even Texas has a clause that its only for businesses with associations with the state government.   Its only Florida.  We will soon find out what will happen.  If they close the port down then at that point the cruise lines will probably file a lawsuit and leave until it changes.  Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, and NCL have all gone the vaccination route.  Right now the only mainline undecided company is Carnival. They haven't outlined what their policies are going to be.  If I had to choose between a cruise with no mask requirements and not sailing out of Florida and a cruise with many restrictions including masks I would sail out of another port plain and simple and take the restriction free cruise.  

[kstetser]

2 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

 Right now the only mainline undecided company is Carnival. They haven't outlined what their policies are going to be.  If I had to choose between a cruise with no mask requirements and not sailing out of Florida and a cruise with many restrictions including masks I would sail out of another port plain and simple and take the restriction free cruise.  

This is exactly my issue - I'm a DCL cruiser (20 sailed and 4 more booked including this September).  We were supposed to go on our first Celebrity cruise this August to Alaska and have pushed to next August.  If DCL decides to not follow the 95% vaccinated requirement, I'll be jumping ship to Celebrity sooner than next August.  I love Disney, but I'm not paying DCL prices for a significantly reduced experience.  They have yet to message how they plan to go.

[kstetser]

10 minutes ago, marieps said:

IMO the governor has missed an important factor.  The overwhelming number of cruisers who've posted here FAVOR a vax mandate.  The Guv is fighting for choice, when if fact the cruising public chooses to be subject to the requirement.  I get the feeling he didn't take the pulse of the actual constituency for which he's supposed to advocating.  

 

 

Pretty sure the governor does not care what non-FL voting cruise passengers want.   Now, the FL residents that make a living from those tourists - that's a different story.  If they start making some noise, I think there could be different results.

 

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, kstetser said:

This is exactly my issue - I'm a DCL cruiser (20 sailed and 4 more booked including this September).  We were supposed to go on our first Celebrity cruise this August to Alaska and have pushed to next August.  If DCL decides to not follow the 95% vaccinated requirement, I'll be jumping ship to Celebrity sooner than next August.  I love Disney, but I'm not paying DCL prices for a significantly reduced experience.  They have yet to message how they plan to go.

I suspect they will go the RCL route and require vaccinations in all cruisers with the exception of children who at the moment do not have approval.  You will need to wear mask etc. as if its a mixed cruise but I suspect but by August all children will be eligible for the vaccine and then most will going the vaccinated route.  The other option is for them to make a call to the Governor to carve out an exception for them for the vaccination rule.  An exception was carved out recently for the social media company law that was just passed because they run an amusement park.  Apparently that is a key requirement for getting exceptions to rules in the state of Florida......

[cangelmd]

32 minutes ago, nocl said:

The law is rather unclear. 

 

It is very clear that cruise lines do need to follow state law when in port.  That is clearly demonstrated by the cruise lines following the Texas liquor laws (only alcohol purchased in the state can be served while in state waters) as well as the collection of state sails taxes.

 

It will be an interesting court case that would put states rights, against maritime law and the Federal Governments control of international travel and transportation.

 

If the Governor really wanted to push the issue the ports are owned by either local government agencies or the State of Florida.  He could probably order the port facilities being used for that cruise to be closed.

 

The fact that a spokesman from the Governors office is still pushing the no vaccine status checking certainly implies that he will continue to push the issue.

 

There are ports in Savannah, Charleston, Mobile and New Orleans that could be used if this continues.  Of course there is some local resistance to cruise ships in a couple of those cities.

 

 

 

 

Our brainiac legislature just passed a similar law. When questioned by a political journalist about the impact on Mobile cruises, the "author" of the law did not even know what was in it. There's no significant enforcement or fines (unlike Florida). It also freezes required vaccines for public schools, including colleges and universities (UA and Auburn, for example) at those required on Jan 1, 2020. So heaven forbid there's a resurgence of smallpox or some variant of measles that requires a specific booster! I think that's the provision that will challenged in court - it is absolutely ridiculous, why require any vaccine?

I think cruises will be on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis - which means Carnival will either have to get everyone to mask up (good luck with that) or deny tickets to persons who don't supply a copy of their card when booking.

[LuvCruzn4Evr]

32 minutes ago, nocl said:

Yes they do.  If you have ever sailed out of Texas (Houston or Galveston).  The choice of alcohol is severely reduced, until the ship leaves port and is out to sea.

 

 

I have and they literally had only the qualifying brands of bottles on the shelf and watched them switch out once far enough out to sea.  I also made the mistake of buying bottles of liquor and finding out after the cruise that there's also a liquor tax of about $2.50 per bottle you have to pay.  

[UnorigionalName]

43 minutes ago, nocl said:

Yes they do.  If you have ever sailed out of Texas (Houston or Galveston).  The choice of alcohol is severely reduced, until the ship leaves port and is out to sea.

 

 

 

Perfect solution.  No vaccine checks at port, but everyone is confined to their room.

 

Once at sea, produce vaccination status to be let out of your room.

Edited May 27, 2021 by UnorigionalName

[dkjretired]

1 hour ago, paulh84 said:

 

It may be popular among a small group, but as a whole and comparatively, Celebrity carries very few kids. That was the op's point. 

You would be surprised, do the Bermuda trip in the summer.  Sailed for years with my kids.

[wrk2cruise]

I wonder if this is why the Cruise Critic news article last night announced Equinox restart on July 18 but made a point that the home port was not specified even though the scheduled sailings are from Port Everglades.

[cscurlock]

3 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

I wonder if this is why the Cruise Critic news article last night announced Equinox restart on July 18 but made a point that the home port was not specified even though the scheduled sailings are from Port Everglades.

This could very well be.  I am sure they have a backup port in mind out of Florida.  At some point this will be a cruise line vs Florida battle.  Not something you want if port jobs are important.

Edited May 27, 2021 by cscurlock

[wrk2cruise]

7 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

This could very well be.  I am sure they have a backup port in mind out of Florida.  At some point this will be a cruise line vs Florida battle.  Not something you want if port jobs are important.

 

My vote would be Charleston but probably not a good choice for hurricane season😀    Actually probably no worse than the other alternatives.

[cscurlock]

Just now, wrk2cruise said:

 

My vote would be Charleston but probably not a good choice for hurricane season😀    Actually probably no worse than the other alternatives.

AL, LA, SC, even TX would be good. 

[Babr]

54 minutes ago, luckyinpa said:

 

wow thats insane for the boozers. i feel bad for them. kinda shocked no one overturned this law to please their constituents.  

 

my 1st cruise i was in haven in NYC and one woman was complaining about the pennies tax on the drink she had. spent 10K for a cabin and worried about a few cents (insert rolleyes here)

Their constituents are the tax payers of the state. They probably like that the cruise ships are contributing. It is another source of revenue so I doubt they are clamoring for a repeal.

[graphicguy]

Still don't see this as an issue after all the grandstanding by Desantis blows over.  It would be devastating, not only to the cruise lines, but to the FL ports where cruise ships embark if a case of COVID were to break out and there has to be another shutdown because there was no check for COVID vaccines.  That would be the end of cruise lines as we know them, and of the industry as a whole sailing out of FL, as a result.

 

It's insanity not to have cruise passengers unvaccinated boarding cruise ships.  Already, the 5% who are allowed to board unvaccinated are going to have to wear masks, and the ship's crew will have to enforce it.  I can see passengers lock downs of those who don't comply, and them being put off the ship at the nearest port as a result.  Ship's security doesn't mess around.

 

Regarding children on board, my point was, they will account for the 5% (who will have to wear masks).  And, there are other, better options out there for children on other lines.

[JamieLogical]

My plan to circumvent the moratorium on vaccine mandates in FL is to not allow any Floridians to sail and to have all of the other passengers provide their proof of vaccination in their online check-in from there home states.

 

My husband's plan is to not ask anyone for proof of vaccination until the ship is in international waters and then kick all the unvaccinated passengers off the ship....

Edited May 27, 2021 by JamieLogical

[ipeeinthepool]

43 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

This could very well be.  I am sure they have a backup port in mind out of Florida.  At some point this will be a cruise line vs Florida battle.  Not something you want if port jobs are important.

 

This goes back a while but one of the early requirements from the CDC was to limit the number of ships in port.  Maybe they are waiting for all of the agreements between the cruise lines and port Everglades to settle down.  Maybe the Equinox will need to find a new home to manage the port loads.

[Crazy planning mom]

3 hours ago, dkjretired said:

Good luck getting the governors of NY or NJ to approve.   Notice all those Bermuda cruises this year!!!!  I took two of those cruises in the winter and they were quite nice.   Also, take in the cost of fuel now would not make them real economical.

Cruising us set to begin in Bayonne in August.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Crazy planning mom

[nocl]

1 hour ago, cscurlock said:

I suspect they will go the RCL route and require vaccinations in all cruisers with the exception of children who at the moment do not have approval.  You will need to wear mask etc. as if its a mixed cruise but I suspect but by August all children will be eligible for the vaccine and then most will going the vaccinated route.  The other option is for them to make a call to the Governor to carve out an exception for them for the vaccination rule.  An exception was carved out recently for the social media company law that was just passed because they run an amusement park.  Apparently that is a key requirement for getting exceptions to rules in the state of Florida......

Children under 12 will probably not be able to be vaccinated until near the end of the year based upon the state of current trials.

 

While RCL has announced vaccines required for some cruises, they are also going the test cruise route which would mean that for at least some cruises they will not be following the 95/98% vaccination requirements.  If they are going through all of the effort to be able to sail with out meeting that requirement then I would expect for those ships and cruises vaccinations will not be required.

[nocl]

3 minutes ago, Dwight1 said:

Yes they can if they are following Federal Guidelines required for sailing. Those Federal laws over rule any state laws. 

Actually they do not.  The constitution is rather clear that with the exception of a few areas where the Federal Government is supreme most powers are limited to the states.  The Feds have two primary tools where they can extend influence, one is the commerce clause that does allow them to regulate things when it comes to interstate commerce, the other is the power of the purse.  Basically  where the government bribes the states to go along with certain federal programs.

 

In this case it would be an interesting case pitting states rights, vs international commerce and maritime law.  Especially considering that the facilities used are owned by either local government, or the state of California.

 

The mechanism of enforcement in the law is also interesting since it basically levies a fine for each violation. So technically a cruise ship could ask for each person, go off on its cruise, complete it just fine, only to have the state present them (their home office which just happens to be located in the same state) with a bill. 

 

I expect that the Celebrity is trying to negotiate a solution with the state.  The state on the other hand has no incentive to drop the requirement (especially since it has now been made a state law) unless the state looses its law suite vs the CDC.

[nocl]

8 minutes ago, Dwight1 said:

Just go to Puerto Rico and negotiate reduced fares from the airlines based on huge new volumes. Plenty of great pre cruise hotels there. They already have dock space.

Cruise lines could not even get passengers to do one way cruises to/from Puerto Rico back when they got a waiver from PVSA.  I doubt that they would get the number of passengers that they need that would be willing to do so.  They had problems enough with Bermuda.

[wrk2cruise]

18 minutes ago, nocl said:

Children under 12 will probably not be able to be vaccinated until near the end of the year based upon the state of current trials.

 

While RCL has announced vaccines required for some cruises, they are also going the test cruise route which would mean that for at least some cruises they will not be following the 95/98% vaccination requirements.  If they are going through all of the effort to be able to sail with out meeting that requirement then I would expect for those ships and cruises vaccinations will not be required.

 

Richard Fain in a video earlier this week said the purpose of the test cruises was to allow more unvaccinated under the age of 16 (12 after August 1).   Anyone eligible for vaccine will still be required to be vaccinated.   With the family demographic they didn't think they could get away with only 5% unvaccinated.   RCG seems to be committed to sailing with the highest vaccinated passenger load practical.   Good for them.

[lx200gps]

52 minutes ago, Dwight1 said:

I still believe if a cruise line follows CDC rules that state 95% vaccination is required to Sail that Federal Agency rule over rules any state laws, period.

 

Have to agree with you on that. In that massive 200+ page thread on this forum, there's this small excerpt from the law, which seems to allow for just that:

 

381.00316 COVID-19 vaccine documentation.—  (1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include  any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or  customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 817 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry  upon, or service from the business' operations in this state.  This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols in accordance with state or federal law to protect public health. 

 

[Thenagers]

1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

My plan to circumvent the moratorium on vaccine mandates in FL is to not allow any Floridians to sail and to have all of the other passengers provide their proof of vaccination in their online check-in from there home states.

 

My husband's plan is to not ask anyone for proof of vaccination until the ship is in international waters and then kick all the unvaccinated passengers off the ship....

walk the plank!

[FlyerTalker]

47 minutes ago, Dwight1 said:

Just go to Puerto Rico and negotiate reduced fares from the airlines based on huge new volumes. Plenty of great pre cruise hotels there. They already have dock space.

 

You may think that's "huge new volumes".  Try again.

 

For example, even in the covid-reduced year of 2020, Delta had 134 BILLION available seat miles in their system.  That averages to 368 Million ASM every day.   Now, put 3000 passengers on flights to SJU and lets average that at 2000 miles each.  That's 6 million ASM - a fraction of the daily average and that's for traffic that doesn't happen seven days a week.

 

And that is assuming ALL the traffic is on DL.  Add in UA's ASM of 122 billion, AA's 143 billion and Southwest's 103 billion.  Just for those four, you have more than half a TRILLION ASMs, and that was in a "slow travel" year.

 

Plus, airline load factors are in the 70-90% range right now, so it's not like there are a lot of unfilled seats.

 

Cruise traffic is nice, but in the big picture, it's a drop in the bucket.