Is Royal Caribbean trying to get all Canadians to cancel their planned cruises?

[DirtyDawg]

32 minutes ago, RoyalC said:

That is the problem. Leadership is awful imo. I have nothing booked. Seems they don't want anyone to cruise. You see how they treat some passengers lately too. I'm finding alternative vacations right now, sadly.  

In the big picture, who cares if you or I cruise in the next six months? Only us. 

 

The health authorities job is to save lives, not to be our cruise TA's.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[brillohead]

2 hours ago, Acadie said:

Does this mean Americans who received the second dose in less than 28 days (in this case 21 days) are also considered "unvaccinated"?  

Nope, because if you got the Pfizer version, that is the manufacturer's recommended span... as outlined below:

 

6 hours ago, dswallow said:

 

I read the description (What vaccines are accepted? | Royal Caribbean Cruises) and find it's really clear right now what is and is not acceptable.

 

For all departure ports:

 

1) A completed series of a single vaccine brand in accordance with manufacturers timetables as authorized by the US FDA (Pfizer/BionTech, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson/Janssen).

 

[brillohead]

2 hours ago, tottenhamfc said:

We are allowing Americans in with J and J but we are not allowing our citizens to partake in that vaccine. We are not allowing Russian Chinese or Indian Astra Zeneca as an acceptable vaccine. Personally I think WHO has to come up with a standard acceptable vaccine protocol and all countries should follow. If any one of these vaccines does not prevent a mutated virus from spreading within a fully vaccinated country over 80% then it should be considered unacceptable. TBF this has nothing to do with cruising or cruise companies. It is all about the confusion it creates with social media being able to access info from all over the world. It makes you unsure about who to believe.

Actually, the vaccine isn't necessarily expected to prevent spreading -- it's expected to reduce hospitalization and prevent death.  

[RoyalC]

1 hour ago, DirtyDawg said:

In the big picture, who cares if you or I cruise in the next six months? Only us. 

 

The health authorities job is to save lives, not to be our cruise TA's.

 

 

Coronavirus has been around forever. We never tested for it before. The health authorities are not consistent and in fact told us to NOT wear masks before. If you want to save lives stop driving cars, etc. They simply hate cruise ships. Everything else is wide open. The cruise industry will collapse under the current system. That is obvious. Bookings are pathetic, especially considering many people have cruise credits to use and ships are only booking to certain capacity. Watch the CDC extend their protocols November! That is what they do. Then what? Also, if you are vaccinated you will still catch covid. Start testing everyone like before and watch the numbers skyrocket. So many athletes are testing positive, with zero or minimal symptoms (think like common cold), yet none ever die or anything.

[tottenhamfc]

Brillohead, assuming you are correct and you may very well be, why are they so discerning about different vaccines in different countries. I get a cheap bandaid is not as good as an expensive one, but they both do the job albeit temporarily. The objective they have buys us time. We had some AZ from India and we gladly took it because of availability and now they wont let anyone in from other countries who had it as their base vaccine. 

[OACAggie]

Am I missing something…if they are to follow CDC, the link @dswallow posted states this:

 

”However, individuals who receive the second dose up to 4 days before or at any time after the recommended date can be considered fully vaccinated.”

 

So I read this as if you received your second dose ANY TIME after 21 days (Pfizer) & 28 days (Moderna), then you are good to go…at least if both doses are same vaccine. 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by OACAggie

[brillohead]

1 hour ago, tottenhamfc said:

Brillohead, assuming you are correct and you may very well be, why are they so discerning about different vaccines in different countries. I get a cheap bandaid is not as good as an expensive one, but they both do the job albeit temporarily. The objective they have buys us time. We had some AZ from India and we gladly took it because of availability and now they wont let anyone in from other countries who had it as their base vaccine. 

Because they need to make themselves look smart/important, when they really are just winging it all.  Politics and all that crap.  That's my best guess.

 

[Russ Lomas]

22 minutes ago, OACAggie said:

Am I missing something…if they are to follow CDC, the link @dswallow posted states this:

 

”However, individuals who receive the second dose up to 4 days before or at any time after the recommended date can be considered fully vaccinated.”

 

So I read this as if you received your second dose ANY TIME after 21 days (Pfizer) & 28 days (Moderna), then you are good to go…at least if both doses are same vaccine. 

 

I am hoping you are right.  What my issue is that more than one person has called RCCL and spoken to a supervisor and the information they gave over the phone conflicts with what you posted above directly from the CDC website (although others called and got a different answer).  All I am asking is that RCCL clearly define what they mean and pass this information on to their employees (especially supervisors) so that situations like this do not keep arising.

 

While it may not affect all of you, it greatly impacts many of us, and those of us who have plans to cruise in the next couple of weeks may have a wrench thrown into our planning that was not there a couple of days ago.

[mabt]

21 hours ago, Russ Lomas said:

I certainly hope you are correct.  We sail in 20 days.  A buddy sails in 6 days.  Just imagine if you were all set for your cruise and this was thrown at you 3 days prior to flying to Florida for your cruise.  If you have a cruise booked months from now, it is easier to sit back and wait for change.  For those of us booked in the next couple of weeks, the timelines are crucial.

 

This is the problem.  The policy just keeps changing, with no notice, apparently applied immediately even to booked passengers on imminent cruises.

 

And it's not even being directly communicated.  If I wasn't proactively checking the website and watching forum posts, I wouldn't even know that the policy had changed.  For me it's not "just" a matter of being considered unvaccinated and required to wear a mask (although that would be bad enough).  The cruise I am booked on requires all passengers 12+ to be fully vaccinated.  Presumably I would be denied boarding at the port.  I was considered vaccinated by RCCL at the time of booking, and now I am not.  Pfizer / Moderna administered at 44 days.

 

Not everyone can afford to sit back and wait a few months to see how this settles out.  I have a little more time than you, sailing late August, but I am quickly getting to the point where I need to commit to going and have travel plans fully in place, or cut my losses and plan a different vacation.  I expected some degree of uncertainty, but this is getting a little absurd.  This is the third change I'm aware of since I booked my cruise a couple of weeks ago.

 

I have added my voice to Mr. Bayley's inbox, for what that's worth.  None of the ports my cruise will visit require a single manufacturer or specify a limit on the interval between doses, so in my case this is entirely on RCCL.

[mabt]

This is interesting:

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8058856/quebec-third-covid-vaccine-travel/

 

The synopsis is that Quebec is explicitly allowing third doses for travel purposes, "at your own risk".

 

That gives me about a 16 day window to pop across to Gatineau and get a second Moderna dose more than 28 days after the first, and at least 14 days prior to sailing.

 

My husband had two Pfizer doses administered 50 days apart (lucked into that second Pfizer dose - right clinic at the right time, I guess).  He would have an even smaller window of opportunity of about 9 days for a third Pfizer dose, if necessary.

 

My kids were just under the wire, at 41 and 38 day intervals.

 

Kind of crazy that we're even considering this though.  The idea that there's going to be any measurable difference at all between doses administered at 42 days versus 44 days is patently ridiculous.  And who's to say that RCCL won't turn around and say next that "there's no evidence supporting the efficacy of a third dose, so we're not accepting that now either?"

 

[mabt]

Here's what the CDC has to say about "Interchangeability of COVID-19 vaccine products" (bolding is mine):

 

"In exceptional situations in which the mRNA vaccine product given for the first dose cannot be determined or is no longer available, any available mRNA COVID-19 vaccine may be administered at a minimum interval of 28 days between doses to complete the mRNA COVID-19 vaccination series. In situations where the same mRNA vaccine product is temporarily unavailable, it is preferable to delay the second dose (up to 6 weeks) to receive the same product than to receive a mixed series using a different product. If two doses of different mRNA COVID-19 vaccine products are administered in these situations (or inadvertently), no additional doses of either product are recommended at this time. Such persons are considered fully vaccinated against COVID-19 ≥2 weeks after receipt of the second dose of an mRNA vaccine."

 

Further down on the same page, there is a table summarizing the steps to be taken under various scenarios, including, for mRNA vaccines:

• "Second dose administered fewer than 17 days (Pfizer-BioNTech) or fewer than 24 days (Moderna) after the first dose - Do not repeat dose"
• "Second dose administered more than 42 days after the first dose - Do not repeat dose"
• "Incorrect mRNA COVID-19 vaccine product administered for second dose in 2-dose series - Do not repeat dose"

So, taken together:

• Mixing of mRNA doses is not recommended.  However, where the first dose is no longer available (incidentally, this is exactly why many people in Canada ended up with mixed doses), mixing is acceptable.  Those who are vaccinated with mixed mRNA doses, for whatever reason, are considered fully vaccinated, and should not receive an additional dose.
• Delaying second mRNA doses past 42 days is not recommended, regardless of which vaccine(s) are administered.
• If a second mRNA dose is administered at an interval greater than 42 days, contrary to recommendations, no additional dose is to be administered.
• Nowhere is there a distinction between mixed mRNA doses and same-manufacturer mRNA doses with respect to the maximum interval between doses.  The recommendation is the same in both cases.
• The minimum interval is set at 28 days for a mixed schedule, because while Pfizer can be administered at 21 days, Moderna cannot.  So 28 days is the shortest interval that satisfies both manufacturers' requirements.  This shouldn't be read to imply that two Pfizer doses administered at 21 days are somehow unacceptable, but also shouldn't be assumed to imply that there should be any special application of the interval recommendations in the mixed dose scenario.

 

The way I read this is that if RCCL is being consistent in their application of the CDC's recommendations, then either all combinations of mRNA vaccines are acceptable at > 42 days, or none of them are.  Per the CDC, it should be the former - mRNA vaccination intervals of greater than 42 days are accepted, and no additional doses are required.

 

Likewise, any combination of mRNA doses administered with a shorter than recommended interval is acceptable, but not recommended.

 

Accepting single-manufacturer administration at an interval over 42 days, but not mixed dosing beyond 42 days is just plain arbitrary.  The CDC does not distinguish between those scenarios; why should RCCL do so?

 

Of course RCCL could be making up their own rules.  But the talk throughout this thread has been about how "RCCL's hands are tied; they are just following the CDC."  Except that they are not.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by mabt

[Mark_UK]

14 hours ago, orville99 said:

Interesting...It is, however, research brought to you by the same folks at Oxford that convinced the U.K. government that waiting 12 weeks to do second doses of the AZ vaccine would allow them to get enough immunity in every U.K citizen to beat the virus. Unfortunately, the case rate in the U.K. over the past 14 days is 874/100K while the U.S. (who followed the vaccine manufacturer and CDC guidelines) stands at 147/100K. 

 

Maybe a bit more research is needed before conclusions are cast in stone.

 

Sorry, but you have taken a very simplistic view of those numbers. I don't agree with everything the UK gov has done, but I think the UK is currently demonstrating empirically (for the the world) quite how *effective* these vaccines are, even at 8 or 12 weeks. 

 

Yes, UK case rates are high, though now seemingly falling quite fast - Delta arrived here in May and the current wave has further been driven by the Euro football  tournament three weeks ago (young males). Plus, almost all legal restrictions lifted (nightclubs open, no mandated masks, etc) and there are still millions of children, younger adults and vaccine scepticis not vaccinated. 

 

However, despite the highest case rate ever, in the world perhaps, hospitalisations and deaths in particular are a mere fraction of previous waves. And these people are largely those unvaccinated or severally compromised. The UK has taken a big gamble, but I'm fairly sure the world will follow once populations are vaccinated. 

 

So I think those scientists are probably feeling quite vindicated about the chosen vaccine strategy. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vaccines-highly-effective-against-hospitalisation-from-delta-variant

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1088

 

[A&L_Ont]

6 hours ago, mabt said:

This is interesting:

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/8058856/quebec-third-covid-vaccine-travel/

 

The synopsis is that Quebec is explicitly allowing third doses for travel purposes, "at your own risk".

 

That gives me about a 16 day window to pop across to Gatineau and get a second Moderna dose more than 28 days after the first, and at least 14 days prior to sailing.

 

My husband had two Pfizer doses administered 50 days apart (lucked into that second Pfizer dose - right clinic at the right time, I guess).  He would have an even smaller window of opportunity of about 9 days for a third Pfizer dose, if necessary.

 

My kids were just under the wire, at 41 and 38 day intervals.

 

Kind of crazy that we're even considering this though.  The idea that there's going to be any measurable difference at all between doses administered at 42 days versus 44 days is patently ridiculous.  And who's to say that RCCL won't turn around and say next that "there's no evidence supporting the efficacy of a third dose, so we're not accepting that now either?"

 

That’s crazy that you would have to go through all of that. I’m at the point that I would not. It just might be easier to cancel your cruise, get a refund and do something else with the returned funds.
 

To have to go to Quebec to get a third shot seems ridiculous, even if you lived in Ottawa. That’s if Quebec would even allow you a third shot, if you are from out of Province.  It seems like a whole lot of effort, to which will the cruise be that rewarding once on board?  What if the rising Delta variant changes mask mandates for all on board, regardless of vaccination status.  

 

Just my thoughts, but I’d be in no rush to get a third shot just to cruise at this point in time. To jump through the hoops is one thing, but another added layer on top with a third shot to me is the line in the sand. Travel from Canada pre-pandemic to a cruise port was a long day and with the added measures it is not any more fun.
 

I’m excited to get to go somewhere at some point in time, but until cruises clarify their rules and they hold constant for a period of time I am passing.  It’s one thing if a booster is needed down the road which I’d gladly get, but for me having to get a third shot of Pfizer because of a few days difference is my stopping point. At some point there is a time to give up, especially when I could fly to an island and layback on a lounger with less effort. 
 

I’m sorry that you and the Russ (the OP) have cruises leaving sooner than later. At least I have until March to wait and see what happens. I feel for those that have one in the immediate and near future. 

[Jimbo]

1 hour ago, A&L_Ont said:

That’s crazy that you would have to go through all of that. I’m at the point that I would not. It just might be easier to cancel your cruise, get a refund and do something else with the returned funds.
 

To have to go to Quebec to get a third shot seems ridiculous, even if you lived in Ottawa. That’s if Quebec would even allow you a third shot, if you are from out of Province.  It seems like a whole lot of effort, to which will the cruise be that rewarding once on board?  What if the rising Delta variant changes mask mandates for all on board, regardless of vaccination status.  

 

Just my thoughts, but I’d be in no rush to get a third shot just to cruise at this point in time. To jump through the hoops is one thing, but another added layer on top with a third shot to me is the line in the sand. Travel from Canada pre-pandemic to a cruise port was a long day and with the added measures it is not any more fun.
 

I’m excited to get to go somewhere at some point in time, but until cruises clarify their rules and they hold constant for a period of time I am passing.  It’s one thing if a booster is needed down the road which I’d gladly get, but for me having to get a third shot of Pfizer because of a few days difference is my stopping point. At some point there is a time to give up, especially when I could fly to an island and layback on a lounger with less effort. 
 

I’m sorry that you and the Russ (the OP) have cruises leaving sooner than later. At least I have until March to wait and see what happens. I feel for those that have one in the immediate and near future. 

I agree, there comes a time when cruising isn't all that. Plenty of other kinds of vacations to go on and spend your money on.

[mabt]

2 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

That’s crazy that you would have to go through all of that. I’m at the point that I would not. It just might be easier to cancel your cruise, get a refund and do something else with the returned funds.
 

To have to go to Quebec to get a third shot seems ridiculous, even if you lived in Ottawa. That’s if Quebec would even allow you a third shot, if you are from out of Province.  It seems like a whole lot of effort, to which will the cruise be that rewarding once on board?  What if the rising Delta variant changes mask mandates for all on board, regardless of vaccination status.  

 

Just my thoughts, but I’d be in no rush to get a third shot just to cruise at this point in time. To jump through the hoops is one thing, but another added layer on top with a third shot to me is the line in the sand. Travel from Canada pre-pandemic to a cruise port was a long day and with the added measures it is not any more fun.
 

I’m excited to get to go somewhere at some point in time, but until cruises clarify their rules and they hold constant for a period of time I am passing.  It’s one thing if a booster is needed down the road which I’d gladly get, but for me having to get a third shot of Pfizer because of a few days difference is my stopping point. At some point there is a time to give up, especially when I could fly to an island and layback on a lounger with less effort. 
 

I’m sorry that you and the Russ (the OP) have cruises leaving sooner than later. At least I have until March to wait and see what happens. I feel for those that have one in the immediate and near future. 

 

We do live in Ottawa, so the "travel to Quebec" part is a complete non-issue.  It's a twenty minute drive.  But I agree that the idea of getting another shot is crazy, for a whole list of reasons.

 

At the same time, if this turns out to be a thing with mixed doses only, and my vaccination status is the only thing standing in the way of my family's vacation, I might consider it.  I got the first two doses for reasons that had nothing to do with my health, and everything to do with getting my life back.  What's one more?

 

For now I'm sitting tight and waiting to see what might change.  I know that most people wouldn't have booked a cruise at this point, let alone jump through these kinds of hoops to make it happen, but I've never been much of a crowd follower.   Any sort of travel right now runs the risk of last minute closures or protocol changes, so I don't think cruises are really unique in that sense.  Maybe a little more uncertain than most, but there are no guarantees anywhere right now.

[MaddyandMax]

19 hours ago, MsDolly said:

As a fellow Canadian equally as frustrated with this situation, I understand why the cruise lines are doing this but of course that doesn’t help the millions in Canada being denied the ability to cruise and also travel to certain countries just by trusting our government.

 

I spoke with my Pharmacist today and apparently we can get a third shot, wonder how long that will happen before the government puts the brakes on.  My next trip is not till February but when the border opens I would like to take a road trip and if things go as I expect they might we will need to be fully vaccinated as we demand of them and I will still not meet the requirements without a third shot.

 

I would like to be patient but not sure I can ☹️

The problem with the 3rd shot is that it will probably still have to hold to manufacturer timelines.  It'll be too late by the time it's approved.  So we we would need a 4th shot not a third (if this isn't straightened out).  How many times do I have to vaccinate myself at this point?  Especially when the science for delayed vaccination is there.  Hopefully border negotiations can open up the opportunely to for CDC review studies from other nations on this.  There at some point is going to need to be a worldwide agreement if leisure travel is going to resume completely.

 

I had Pfizer on May 12 and Moderna on July 9.  The timeline to get a 3rd shot of Moderna in the 42 days is shrinking..

[NateUpNorth]

Wait till RCL tries to wrap it's policy department around this one........

https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

I'm not an expert but that seems to indicate they aren't gonna be "allowed" to use PCR tests (or by extension results) for Covid related screening in 6 months........ granted a long lead time..... but who's got faith they'll be proactive and communicate effectively on this one either?

[orville99]

10 hours ago, Mark_UK said:

So I think those scientists are probably feeling quite vindicated about the chosen vaccine strategy. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vaccines-highly-effective-against-hospitalisation-from-delta-variant

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1088

Both quoted studies detail 2-dose results administered within the manufacturer's EUA guidelines. Thanks for making my point.

[flamingos]

15 hours ago, RoyalC said:

 The health authorities are not consistent and in fact told us to NOT wear masks before. If you want to save lives stop driving cars, etc. 

 

Please stop repeating that debunked line.  That was at the very beginning, when medical masks were in short supply; once cloth masks came into use they were recommended and modeled by medical personnel at every White House briefing.   Know your facts.

[Fabulous97]

We are doing well here in the U.K. Even though the mask mandate was lifted 19 July a large number of the population are still using them (me included) at the supermarket etc. I am not hugging my friends.

 

The minimum between jabs is 8 weeks and you cannot get round this. It is becoming noticeable that places are asking to see proof of your vaccination, we have an NHS app. I.e no jabs, no holidays, restrictions.

 

Young men seem to be the worse!

 

I think when each country followed their own science it’s going to be really difficult.

 

I was on the RCI cruise from Southampton on 15July, all twice jabbed and proof, PCR test before however only for British residents. The government are only just looking at letting overseas British residents back into the country as they were not vaccinated here! The travel industry as a whole is on its knees.

 

 

[crewsweeper]

I'm sure this is very frustrating to all Canadians.  Especially since the US is allowing unvaccinated people through the Southern border and shipping them around the country.  But appears Biden has no backbone in this and isn't even pressuring young Trudeau to step up on that end.  The US CDC is a slowcrawling entity and simply defers tot eh even slower crawling FDA which is sometime clueless on what's safe and effective and what's snake oil. Plus we keep seeing headlines on "studies" claiming it takes two vaccines to be effective, then all vaccines are effective, then no vaccine is effective.  Sorta like the old eat eggs/don't eat eggs for cholesterol, drink coffee/ don't drink coffee, have a glass of wine/don't ever drink wine "studies".   So we may never really ever know but eventually forced to take daily doses of an expensive anti-COVID pill to gain any government semblance to being "protected".

[JRG]

27 minutes ago, crewsweeper said:

I'm sure this is very frustrating to all Canadians.

 

Here is how I comprehend the cruise and travel issues for Canadians.

 

Problem A----Over 1 Million Canadians have a Mixed Vaccine per the papers.

   Causing---cannot travel or cruise where the Mixed Vaccine is not yet approved.

 

Problem B--an unknown number of Canadians may have an elapsed interval in their vax.

    Causing---cannot travel or cruise where the interval has lapsed invalidating mfg. requirements.

 

How big is the number of Problem B individuals?

Much of Canadian travel is paralyzed except for those who qualify.   That is the reality and things are in the hands of the scientists to move the pile right now.

 

Remember that businesses relying on US Canada border on both side are hurt by this.

The US has problem on the southern border that cannot be comprehended here.

 

 

[scottbee]

1 minute ago, JRG said:

 

Here is how I comprehend the cruise and travel issues for Canadians.

 

Problem A----Over 1 Million Canadians have a Mixed Vaccine per the papers.

   Causing---cannot travel or cruise where the Mixed Vaccine is not yet approved.

 

Problem B--an unknown number of Canadians may have an elapsed interval in their vax.

    Causing---cannot travel or cruise where the interval has lapsed invalidating mfg. requirements.

 

How big is the number of Problem B individuals?

Much of Canadian travel is paralyzed except for those who qualify.   That is the reality and things are in the hands of the scientists to move the pile right now.

 

Remember that businesses relying on US Canada border on both side are hurt by this.

The US has problem on the southern border that cannot be comprehended here.

 

 

Problem C - a number of Canadians received mixed doses of AstraZeneca/Covishield. While Oxford/AZ is widely accepted globally, there's a little more hesitancy with the Indian manufactured version (Covishield); and some countries (USA cough cough) don't recognize it as a valid vaccine yet.

 

[JRG]

3 minutes ago, scottbee said:

Problem C

 

Causing what exactly?   Not being finicky,  just keeping the same plane of thought.

 

(if the effect is the same as in Problem A,   then it is Problem A and not a new Problem C)

[scottbee]

1 minute ago, JRG said:

 

Causing what exactly?   Not being finicky,  just keeping the same plane of thought.

 

(if the effect is the same as in Problem A,   then it is Problem A and not a new Problem C)

no, it's not.  This is a case of the same vaccine twice, but the manufacturer of one of the two doses isn't recognized.   Covishield and AstraZeneca are the same formulation; but made in different plants.