Should HAL Buy the Crystal Ships?

[iceman93]

It looks like Crystal is in big trouble:  https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=6707

 

For those of us who have been wishing/hoping/dreaming for HAL to get back to their roots with smaller ships and a more elevated experience, does this offer an opportunity for them to buy three ships at fire sale prices that would enable them to go after that market, while still continuing the strategy of bigger ships for more mainstream itineraries?

[Essiesmom]

Certainly not all three ships.  Endeavor is brand new, but only 19,800 tons, only 100 cabins.  Fare would be too much…. Symphony was built in 1995.  I think they would be foolish to buy her.  Serenity now, a lovely ship that could take over the type of itinerary Prinsendam did, 68000 tons.  EM

[cruisemom42]

Putting aside the question of their new expedition ship (not HAL's market), ask yourself why HAL would purchase two smaller ships of approximately the same vintage as two of their own smaller ships that were recently offloaded to Fred. Olsen? 

 

If HAL were really interested in a smaller ship market, why not keep and redo two ships already built to HAL specs as opposed to trying to turn Crystal ships into HAL ships (as nicely outlined in a different thread by a frequent Crystal and HAL cruiser)?

 

I do not think HAL management is entertaining for one minute the idea of purchasing Crystal's fleet of ships.

[dockman]

But CCL corp may be interested.  They already have Seabourn, Cunard, HAL, Princess, Carnival,  and several other brands ranging from budget to deluxe.  I would love to see them acquire at least the Symphony and Serenity and maintain the niche luxury market that Crystal has excelled at for decades.  Crystal has a very loyal group of customers who are willing to pay top $$ for the crystal experience.  It would be a darn shame to see the Crystal brand disappear.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by dockman

[CruiserBruce]

There is so much extra money floating around in the cruise industry. So much unmet demand. So many ideas for future growth and development. 

[OlsSalt]

Twice on Crystal Symphony - terrible ship, lovely high end decor and fairly good food, but small, poorly laid out  cabins, lousy open spaces and traffic pattern floor plans. Upper Garden deck (like the Crows nest) felt so tippy, no one used it. 

 

Plus these are very old ships by now if 20 years is the average lifespan before repairs cost more than replacement.  Nothing gained. The basics are not just there at least in the Crystal Symphony. 

[iancal]

It is fairly clear that HAL has exited that market.  The exit started well before covid.  Covid simply moved the schedule forward.  

 

My guess is that if HAL had intended to stay in the small ship market they would be spent more on ship mtce and capital improvements on their smaller ships.

 

Just be thankful that you are not holding any FCC's on Crystal.  Or paid any fares in cash or debit vs. credit card or are waiting for refunds of any kind.

 

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/genting-hong-kong-looks-liquidation-054050908.html

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by iancal

[zgscl]

 I think the odds of any of the majors buying a 19 & 27 year old ship to roll into their existing fleet is close to zero. CCL or RCI buying the brand would be more likely. Given that Celebrity sold Azamara to focus on their other brands and they already have Silversea in the market I don't know that they would be interested. NCL has RSSC in this space also. CCL could potentially add Crystal to their line up but I think a third party is more likely given the cruise lines are still hemorrhaging money & the pandemic and related economic impact is far from over. Perhaps Sycamore Partners would be interested to add them as a second cruise line in their portfolio. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by zgscl

[KirkNC]

6 hours ago, iancal said:

It is fairly clear that HAL has exited that market.  The exit started well before covid.  Covid simply moved the schedule forward.  

 

My guess is that if HAL had intended to stay in the small ship market they would be spent more on ship mtce and capital improvements on their smaller ships.

 

Just be thankful that you are not holding any FCC's on Crystal.  Or paid any fares in cash or debit vs. credit card or are waiting for refunds of any kind.

 

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/genting-hong-kong-looks-liquidation-054050908.html

 

 

 

 

I agree.  The lack of  maintenance on some of those ships had gotten pretty bad.  Buckets everywhere, broken equipment, heck on the Maasdam we had three windows literally fall out of the ship in 2019.

[Essiesmom]

4 hours ago, zgscl said:

 I think the odds of any of the majors buying a 19 & 27 year old ship to roll into their existing fleet is close to zero. CCL or RCI buying the brand would be more likely. Given that Celebrity sold Azamara to focus on their other brands and they already have Silversea in the market I don't know that they would be interested. NCL has RSSC in this space also. CCL could potentially add Crystal to their line up but I think a third party is more likely given the cruise lines are still hemorrhaging money & the pandemic and related economic impact is far from over. Perhaps Sycamore Partners would be interested to add them as a second cruise line in their portfolio. 

You have a lot of convoluted facts in this paragraph.  First, it was RCI that sold Azamara, not Celebrity.  CCL (assuming you mean Carnival Corp.) already has Seabourn, so why would they want Crystal?  Fred Olsen or Marella might want Serenity, but I think 27 y/o Symphony not very appealing.  Thre are lots of expedition cruise lines that might snap up Rndeavor.  EM

[Sir PMP]

9 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

Twice on Crystal Symphony - terrible ship, lovely high end decor and fairly good food, but small, poorly laid out  cabins, lousy open spaces and traffic pattern floor plans. Upper Garden deck (like the Crows nest) felt so tippy, no one used it. 

 

Plus these are very old ships by now if 20 years is the average lifespan before repairs cost more than replacement.  Nothing gained. The basics are not just there at least in the Crystal Symphony. 

You're right they're not going to buy an old ship, Serenity is a possibility, but they are better off with building 2 new mid size ships..

[DaveOKC]

I seriously doubt HAL would look at these ships.  First, they have made it clear in public and private, that the smaller ships are not as profitable as the larger ones.  Second, in any business it is tough to buy someone else' problem and turn it around (too many issues).  And third, HAL is still struggling (IMO) with getting what they have back into a profitable operation.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

I agree.  The lack of  maintenance on some of those ships had gotten pretty bad.  Buckets everywhere, broken equipment, heck on the Maasdam we had three windows literally fall out of the ship in 2019.

I remember you posting about that previously. There must have been a lot of wear and tear and lack of maintenance between 2018 when we (and you guys) sailed on the Maasdam and 2019 when you returned to the ship. It shows how quickly thing can fall apart.

[KirkNC]

9 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I remember you posting about that previously. There must have been a lot of wear and tear and lack of maintenance between 2018 when we (and you guys) sailed on the Maasdam and 2019 when you returned to the ship. It shows how quickly thing can fall apart.

Yes, I was very surprised at the change. In 2018 there were problems with plumbing.  I remember people having to be moved to new cabins due to leaks but I don’t recall the wide spread problems we saw in 2019.  Part of it probably that once you start looking, it’s not hard to find.  In addition to the windows falling out, the Lido door to the aft deck on one side was missing, none of the self dispensing ice machines worked, our toilet had to be fixed multiple times, the list goes on.  I would have to revisit the review I did to remember everything.  It was bad enough that we got off two weeks early.

[zgscl]

3 hours ago, Essiesmom said:

You have a lot of convoluted facts in this paragraph.  First, it was RCI that sold Azamara, not Celebrity.  CCL (assuming you mean Carnival Corp.) already has Seabourn, so why would they want Crystal?  Fred Olsen or Marella might want Serenity, but I think 27 y/o Symphony not very appealing.  Thre are lots of expedition cruise lines that might snap up Rndeavor.  EM

That’s what I get for writing after my bedtime! I meant RCI not Celebrity. 
I agree it is not likely that Carnival corp would buy them now. It will be interesting to follow whatever happens. 

[chengkp75]

Genting HK, the owners of Star, Dream, and Crystal cruises, is wholly owned by a family trust.  It is "under" the Genting Group, but with it's own ownership.  The Genting Group is majority owned by the same family.  These two entities have been kicking assets back and forth for a while, so it wouldn't surprise me to see Genting HK get absorbed back into Genting Group, which has a far better capital outlook.

 

And the "lack of maintenance" passengers see on older ships is not what drives these ships to be sold, it is the repair costs from statutory inspections of structural hull steel during drydocks that make 15+ year old ships a question mark for most companies.

[iancal]

Crystal Symphony was one of DW favorite ships.   We were fortunate enough to have an amazing Med cruise on her.  It was our first cruise ever.  She still mentions it.    She feels the same about Solstice class ships.

[MISTER 67]

3 hours ago, DaveOKC said:

I seriously doubt HAL would look at these ships.  First, they have made it clear in public and private, that the smaller ships are not as profitable as the larger ones.  Second, in any business it is tough to buy someone else' problem and turn it around (too many issues).  And third, HAL is still struggling (IMO) with getting what they have back into a profitable operation.

This.

[dockman]

The Crystal BRAND is worth $$.  They have maintained a very loyal core group of clients for decades.

 

Yes new ships would be nice to continue the brand, but Crystal has provided some very good cruise experiences for thousands upon thousands, me included.  I am hoping that some deep pockets take them over and UPGRADE the crystal experience once again.

[OlsSalt]

One aspect of both Symphony and Serenity to celebrate is they do have a 360 walking decks - but not much else that are signature hallmarks of HAL ships.   However, there was very limited outdoor seating and this 360 deck was not used much during the daytime. I remember one couple sitting out furtively with a paper wrapped bottle of "adult beverages" on one of the few outdoor benches (no cushions) while having their outdoor sundowner.

 

There is little connection to  the sea on the Symphony - closed-in spaces, very few windows in the dining room, tiny library area, no glass sun roof, no scattered intimate seating areas by windows in the public spaces, and you had to walk directly through various areas on the same deck to get to the few public venues - no "hallway" for back and forth traffic.  Back buffet dining area had some outdoor seating, but it was exposed and windy. 

 

So the feel of the Symphony was cramped and inconvenient.   Only one real public deck and the rest of the ship was devoted to cabins and long anonymous corridors to the cabins, though that decor was very elegant in its carpeting and wall coverings.

 

Because of this over-all closed in feelings onboard I remember feeling sea-sick because  there was no horizon for visual checks and intentionally having to go outdoors after the first few days of onboard activities to remind myself indeed I was at sea, and not just in a luxury land-based convention hotel setting. 

 

Whatever, after this Crystal experience before we went on our first HAL ship later (the venerable Maasdam), we somehow felt immediately "at home" and visually intrigued on that HAL ship, but did not really know why.  

 

A later trip on the Crystal Symphony was taken only because they were offering fire sale prices on a Mexico leg during some drug cartel wars when they were facing lots of cancellations, so the ship was only half full and it was leaving from a home-state port.

 

A good cruise both times on Crystal -the itineraries were both very good, but the smaller  HAL ships themselves just felt like a better fit for us is so many ways, not just price and value. 

 

Which is why so often it is mentioned - there can be the right cruise line for everyone out there, but one might  have to keep trying to find one's own perfect match.

 

Our other favorite was Voyages of Discovery, on the oldest ship possible - the Love Boat's sister ship long retired from Princess -talk about small  venues, cramped cabins and bucket of bolts rust, but oh the places we went as a small ship still slipping into old harbors and exotic off the beaten track itineraries. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by OlsSalt

[Mary229]

I think you all are selling short the push for energy efficiency.   This may be the most important factor when considering adding new ships.  When the Crystal ships were considered in another HAL thread I looked at the candidates - they are far too old to offer sufficient energy efficiency.  More and more like airlines, the profit is made by fuel hedging and energy efficiency.  

[Aquahound]

HAL has gone in a totally different direction than Crystal.  I don't see Crystal's ships fitting in to the HAL model.

 

That said, it would be nice to see another major line enter the expeditionary market.  Celebrity has a good thing going with their small expeditionary ships so if HAL got their hands on the Crystal Endeavor, they could start to compete in that venue.  

[seattleskibums]

It seems like there's enough overlap with Crystal in the industry that CCL (Seabourn), NCL (Regent) and RCL (stake in Silversea) would not be interested in Crystal for its ships.  But the loyal customer base could be a boon for any of them.

 

Crystal also has a river cruise division that could interest one of the U.S. cruise giants looking to expand into the European river market.  They have five "river yachts" that might be worthwhile additions to some cruise company.

[silversneakers]

17 hours ago, dockman said:

But CCL corp may be interested.  They already have Seabourn, Cunard, HAL, Princess, Carnival,  and several other brands ranging from budget to deluxe.  I would love to see them acquire at least the Symphony and Serenity and maintain the niche luxury market that Crystal has excelled at for decades.  Crystal has a very loyal group of customers who are willing to pay top $$ for the crystal experience.  It would be a darn shame to see the Crystal brand disappear.  

I think all the cruise lines are in financial trouble with still an uncertainty in front of them. Don't see CCL adding more debt.

[dockman]

Yes they all have problems but CCL seems to have more cash and assets than others....I just hope that the crystal brand somehow survives with a new owner that has the resources to return the brand to former glory days...i was lucky to sail on crystal over a dozen times back when it was THE choice for luxury cruising and won just about every award in the book.