Emergency airlift?

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

On another forum someone was talking about friends who lost a member of their family on a cruise in the Pacific out from Hawaii.  Evidently the person had a heart attack and they were unable due to location, to airlift the person to a hospital, so they kept the person comfortable until she died. 

I understand the risk of being onboard a ship where being airlifted off the ship is hampered by weather or some other emergency situation, but being a day or so out into the Pacific off the coast of Hawaii and not being able to be removed from the ship and taken to a hospital, was not something I had imagined.  This was not on Viking.  

 

Can anyone shed light on this? Are there locations where you cannot be air lifted off the ship?  

 

Thanks....

[eylarson]

There are many locations where airlift isn't possible.   I would venture to say that anytime you are much beyond the sight of land, you are beyond the range of a helicopter evacuation.  Viking Ships do not have the space for a helicopter landing.  Airlift would require hoist operations that have their own risks and use considerable fuel. That shortens the range of any evacuation operation.  

 

On the WC 2019, they did transfer an ill passenger and his partner to a foreign navy ship for transport to a medical facility.  Even that was harrowing given the difference in size and height of the Viking tenders and the navy ship.  I would guess it was a fortunate coincidence that there was ship in the vicinity, with  available medical capabilities and the range to take on someone with what I assume was a life threatening illness.  

[basenji56]

This is an important topic.  I think that people overestimate the ability to be airlifted from a cruise ship.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, eylarson said:

 I would venture to say that anytime you are much beyond the sight of land, you are beyond the range of a helicopter evacuation. 

You can be well beyond the sight of land. Helicopters can have a flight range of several hundred miles.

For example:

https://www.nhahistoricalsociety.org/coast-guard-hh-60j-jayhawk-helicopter/#:~:text=The Jayhawk can fly 300,knots for 6-7 hours.

"The Jayhawk can fly 300 miles offshore, remain on scene 45 minutes, hoist six people on board, and return to its point of origin with a safe fuel reserve. Normal cruising speeds of 135-140 knots can be increased to a “dash” speed of 180 knots when necessary. It will fly comfortably at 140 knots for 6-7 hours."

[trtog7]

I was told by the Doctor on a Transatlantic cruise the limit is about 200 miles

[PasadenaDave]

I think society has gotten a bit too comfortable with the idea of getting rescued and saved.  This applies to heart attacks in cities, sprained ankles while backing and illness while on a cruise ship.

Heroic rescue occurs without challenges on television, but in real life they are not without considerable risk to both the victim and rescuer.  
Does quick response to heart attack and stroke help?  Yes, it does, but even at the most modern hospital, many die despite a quick response.  Too many people take risks on snowmobiles and hiking outside of their ability as their emergency beacon can summon help.

 I have known rescuers who have died responding to mishaps.  

 

When I take a cruise I have no expectation that if I become ill, that I will be helicoptered to a hospital despite my proximity to land.

 

if there is an event like the Andrea Doria or what Viking experienced a few years ago, that is different 

[austinetc]

I am very sorry for the family's loss.

 

Cruise ships sail at about 23 MPH. This equates to about 500 miles a day. Also worth mentioning that Hawaii stretches 1,500 miles.  The ship might have been "close to" a part of Hawaii and still far from a facility with the needed rescue helicopter.

 

 

 

[Jim Avery]

We have been on two world cruises with Viking.  On both deaths have occurred.  Also illness and injury.  On one a passenger died in the sauna first day out from LA.  Was kept onboard for 8 days till Papeete.  We have witnessed two helo evacuations of ill crew or passenger.  Very dicey and we were obviously closer to a helicopter facility.  Other evacuations have taken place at foreign ports for broken limbs, etc.  Sea travel is not as safe as being at home.  I know that sounds simplistic but as has been noted above some seem to think their every problem will be attended to.  The main caveat is "if possible".  Sea travel is an adventure and there are inherent risks.  In our experience Viking has done everything possible in the most professional manner.  We all go sometimes and going on a World Cruise might not be the worst way to go.

[kate7047]

I was told by a friend of mine who works in the industry that the cruise lines have actuarial calculations of how many people they expect to die on a world cruise. It's a bucket list trip for some and they kick the bucket a little sooner than they expected. 

[donaldsc]

There are lots and lots of  places where evacuation would be difficult if not impossible.  Almost any cruise in the Antarctic or Arctic area would be one of them.  Others would be a transatlantic cruise.  If you took a cruise out of Hawaii, at 20 knots, in 1 day you would be outside of helicopter range.  Bottom line is if you can't accept that if you can't accept that you will be out of evacuation range on a cruise for much of a cruise, you shouldn't be cruising.  Put another way, travel can kill you.

 

There are even lots of places in the US where you will have the same problem.  Many years ago before satellite  phones I took a Grand Canyon raft trip.  The guides carried a radio so that they could contact any airplanes that were overhead if there was overhead.  The airplane would then hopefully contact the NPS so a helicopter could come in and rescue you.  By the time they got to you you would already be dead and the whole thing would have occurred only 30 miles maximum from excellent medical facilities.

 

DON

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

Thanks everyone....I'm going to continue to cruise, and pay for insurance to be air lifted...and hope for the best!  

[amyr]

Several years ago we were on a transpacific cruise out of Papeete.  I'm fuzzy on the number of days, but maybe two days out of Papeete on our way to Pitcairn, a gentleman traveling alone fell in the buffet and broke his hip.  I think it was another two days before we could get him to Isles Gambier where he was offloaded onto a tender to head to shore, and we watched an airplane flying in to pick him up and airlift him back to Papeete.  The logistics of it all were amazing and so were the medical staff.  We never heard any more about him, and I still wonder if he did okay.  I wouldn't have wanted to be in that same spot with a stroke, cardiac event, or even a dodgy appendix.  The risk we take I guess, and it's why we have MedJet.  

[donaldsc]

23 minutes ago, amyr said:

Several years ago we were on a transpacific cruise out of Papeete.  I'm fuzzy on the number of days, but maybe two days out of Papeete on our way to Pitcairn, a gentleman traveling alone fell in the buffet and broke his hip.  I think it was another two days before we could get him to Isles Gambier where he was offloaded onto a tender to head to shore, and we watched an airplane flying in to pick him up and airlift him back to Papeete.  The logistics of it all were amazing and so were the medical staff.  We never heard any more about him, and I still wonder if he did okay.  I wouldn't have wanted to be in that same spot with a stroke, cardiac event, or even a dodgy appendix.  The risk we take I guess, and it's why we have MedJet.  

 

I am sure that you know but some of the people on CC may not know that MedJet does not do emergency evacuations.  What MedJet does is that once you are stabilized at a 1st responder medical facility they take you from the 1st responder medical facility to a facility of your choice back home.  Since I assume that the medical facilities on Isles Gambier probably could not handle his broken hip, I wonder if MedJet would even handle the evacuation from Isles Gambier to Papeete.  MedJet certainly would not handle an evacuation off a cruise ship.

 

We are thinking about getting a MedJet policy for our next cruises but since we will both be >80, MedJet is terribly expensive.

 

DON

[FlyerTalker]

31 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

We are thinking about getting a MedJet policy for our next cruises but since we will both be >80, MedJet is terribly expensive.

 

Like all forms of insurance, there is an actuarial calculation or two involved.

 

Time for you to ask yourself the same kind of question -- what is the risk for the two of you, and are you willing & able to assume the financial cost if something "goes wrong"?

 

Not saying that one answer or another is right, but you need to crunch those numbers and make your own risk assessment.

[Heidi13]

14 hours ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

On another forum someone was talking about friends who lost a member of their family on a cruise in the Pacific out from Hawaii.  Evidently the person had a heart attack and they were unable due to location, to airlift the person to a hospital, so they kept the person comfortable until she died. 

I understand the risk of being onboard a ship where being airlifted off the ship is hampered by weather or some other emergency situation, but being a day or so out into the Pacific off the coast of Hawaii and not being able to be removed from the ship and taken to a hospital, was not something I had imagined.  This was not on Viking.  

 

Can anyone shed light on this? Are there locations where you cannot be air lifted off the ship?  

 

Thanks....

 

When cruising the Caribbean, Meddy, Alaska, UK & North Europe, etc. you have a reasonable chance of having helo evac available to the ship. However, when on an ocean passage, it is very limited to non-existant.

 

A reasonable rule of thumb is 12 hrs steaming off-shore helo evac will be limited, but by 24 hrs it is most likely not available - all assuming about 20 kts.

 

Shipping has a voluntary reporting system - AMVER that can quickly identify any ships in the vicinity that could provide a higher level of care. However, the only ships with a higher level of care than a cruise ship are normally large naval ships. Ships with a compliment < 100 do not even have a doctor on board. The Captain or Chief Officer are responsible for medical care.

 

Some of the larger cruise ships have landing pads, but most helo evacs are completed by hoisting. This is a high risk operation due to masts, rigging, wind, etc. 

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, Sunflower &amp; The Scientist said:

Thanks everyone....I'm going to continue to cruise, and pay for insurance to be air lifted...and hope for the best!  

No insurance that I know of covers the actual "airlifting" off the ship.  SAR functions at sea are provided by governmental agencies, and are free of charge, by international convention.  Commercial helicopter operators, even ones that operate "life flight" operations, do not train on lifting patients off moving ships at sea, so no Captain in his right mind would allow any of them near his ship.

 

In areas where the US has accepted responsibility for SAR missions, range can be extended, if decisions are made between the Captain, the ship's doctor, the USCG flight surgeon, and the flight crew, that the risk to the patient of an extended range evacuation was outweighed by the reward.  I have heard of USAF helicopters, outfitted with aerial refueling booms, and aerial tankers being used for medical emergencies at sea.  Virtually no one else on Earth has this capability.

 

Cruising, has made it seem as if going to sea is as safe and carefree as going to the mall.  Disinterest in the muster drills, total lack of concern for personal safety, and the unawareness of the limitations of getting you to medical facilities is evidenced every day on cruise ships, by totally oblivious passengers.  The cold, hard fact is that if you are out in the middle of the ocean, even on a cruise ship, that ship is your universe, and there isn't anyone else riding to the rescue.

[amyr]

10 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

I am sure that you know but some of the people on CC may not know that MedJet does not do emergency evacuations.  What MedJet does is that once you are stabilized at a 1st responder medical facility they take you from the 1st responder medical facility to a facility of your choice back home. 

Yes, this is true.  Our MedJet is the supplement to the standard evacuation insurance we have that gets us off the ship to shore, which is the evacuation insurance that most people think will bring them home but won't, and I think is often covered by local authorities anyway?  There were two incidents that made me purchase the MedJet.  The one above, and about the same time local man in his 50s who was visiting his son at an air base in Germany.  He slipped on some ice, hit his head, and then spent some time in the hospital there with a brain injury.  He needed medical transport back to the US, but couldn't afford it.  I threw a few bucks in his *****.  What a terrible position to be in.  ETA:  Not sure why the stars up there, I guess I can't mention one of those outfits that collects funds for people in need.  Oops

Edited February 7, 2022 by amyr
The stars

[Jim Avery]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No insurance that I know of covers the actual "airlifting" off the ship.  SAR functions at sea are provided by governmental agencies, and are free of charge, by international convention.  Commercial helicopter operators, even ones that operate "life flight" operations, do not train on lifting patients off moving ships at sea, so no Captain in his right mind would allow any of them near his ship.

 

In areas where the US has accepted responsibility for SAR missions, range can be extended, if decisions are made between the Captain, the ship's doctor, the USCG flight surgeon, and the flight crew, that the risk to the patient of an extended range evacuation was outweighed by the reward.  I have heard of USAF helicopters, outfitted with aerial refueling booms, and aerial tankers being used for medical emergencies at sea.  Virtually no one else on Earth has this capability.

 

Cruising, has made it seem as if going to sea is as safe and carefree as going to the mall.  Disinterest in the muster drills, total lack of concern for personal safety, and the unawareness of the limitations of getting you to medical facilities is evidenced every day on cruise ships, by totally oblivious passengers.  The cold, hard fact is that if you are out in the middle of the ocean, even on a cruise ship, that ship is your universe, and there isn't anyone else riding to the rescue.

Perfectly laid out Chief.

[Eggtuary]

14 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

Like all forms of insurance, there is an actuarial calculation or two involved.

 

Time for you to ask yourself the same kind of question -- what is the risk for the two of you, and are you willing & able to assume the financial cost if something "goes wrong"?

 

Not saying that one answer or another is right, but you need to crunch those numbers and make your own risk assessment.

Being an actuary, I always enjoy mentions of my career field. 😀  My profile name is a combination of being an actuary and a Big Green Egg owner. 

[JeriGail]

1 hour ago, Eggtuary said:

Being an actuary, I always enjoy mentions of my career field. 😀  My profile name is a combination of being an actuary and a Big Green Egg owner. 

I always wondered about your screen name.  I guessed that a Big Green Egg was a camper - wrong!  It's a cool looking grill.

[Cienfuegos]

On our 2018 Trade Routes of the Vikings cruise, my wife and I  had the opportunity to watch a simulated air rescue from a Viking ship by the Portuguese Coast Guard.  It was late in the evening.

 

A helicopter hovered over the rear of the ship, and lowered a basket to the deck above the infinity pool deck. Two sailors exited the basket, and a crew member got in with one sailor.  The basket went up, and into the copter.  Shortly afterward, the basket and inhabitants came down, and the crew member exited. To cheers.  The basket went back up.

 

A gurney type device was lowered and a crew member was strapped into it, and went up and away.  The crew member returned, and that helicopter departed.  The sequence was repeated with a second helicopter, and new medical team.

 

Given that this happened on a clear night, with modest seas, and fine on board lighting, I have to admire the expertise of the Norwegian rescue teams who evacuated passengers from the Viking Sky. Pitching seas, minimal lighting, pounding rain and winds on that effort. Repeated dozens of times.

[OnTheJourney]

On 2/6/2022 at 10:37 AM, eylarson said:

Viking Ships do not have the space for a helicopter landing.

If they did, 3/23/19 might have been a whole lot less stressful for some of us that were evacuated!! 

[OnTheJourney]

21 hours ago, Cienfuegos said:

I have to admire the expertise of the Norwegian rescue teams who evacuated passengers from the Viking Sky. Pitching seas, minimal lighting, pounding rain and winds on that effort. Repeated dozens of times.

Yep...I was one of 'em. That rescue effort went on for like 19 hours straight. My hat is forever off to the Norwegian CDC. 

[Jim Avery]

11 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

If they did, 3/23/19 might have been a whole lot less stressful for some of us that were evacuated!! 

Unfortunately,  helipads on ships become rapidly unusable due to pitching, rolling or winds.  

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

If they did, 3/23/19 might have been a whole lot less stressful for some of us that were evacuated!! 

 

22 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

Unfortunately,  helipads on ships become rapidly unusable due to pitching, rolling or winds.  

Helipads on ships are more for decoration than anything else.  They do provide a clear space for a winch operation (and most are not sized or strong enough for military aircraft), but flying towards a ship that is steaming towards you as you have to do for even a winch operation on those bow pads, is dangerous in the extreme, which is why you see ships with bow helipads having baskets winched from the top deck midships or aft.