Two dogs in a stroller on Sillouette

[ghstudio]

I agree that it would be nice to have a standard but I don't think there is even a standard for "service dog" among the organizations that train service dogs. Who would enforce the standard so that someone who trained their own dog could be "documented"? not everyone can afford a trained "service dog"...how do you handle "home trained?".

The only way I can think of to enforce some sort of standard is essentially what we have....a doctor saying the person needs (or can benefit) from a service dog. We all know there are doctors who will sign that approval...just like they sign the handicapped parking forms.

Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with what we have...and we're stuck with the obnoxious people who take advantage of the system because they are "special"

[davekathy]

[quote name='ghstudio']I agree that it would be nice to have a standard but I don't think there is even a standard for "service dog" among the organizations that train service dogs. Who would enforce the standard so that someone who trained their own dog could be "documented"? not everyone can afford a trained "service dog"...how do you handle "home trained?".

The only way I can think of to enforce some sort of standard is essentially what we have....a doctor saying the person needs (or can benefit) from a service dog. We all know there are doctors who will sign that approval...just like they sign the handicapped parking forms.

Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with what we have...and we're stuck with the obnoxious people who take advantage of the system because they are "special"[/QUOTE]

Agree. No different than those abusing handicap placards or the welfare system. What ya gonna do! I guess it's the world we live in.

[K.T.B.]

[quote name='alexspepa']If you do own a restaurant I hope you read up on the ADA regulations so you can legally and positively interact with your disabled customers, and recognize legitamate and fake Service Animals.

There is no such documentation you are speaking of...and maybe read the whole thread? Cle-Guy has very eloquently explained why the ADA regs are legislated as they are, and also explained why now they should now be amended to regulate and protect real Service Animals.

This post - [I]I don't know how many times this has been in this thread but a hotel, restaurant, airline, cruiseline or anywhere a person is allowed into is not permitted by Federal law to ask for documentation.[/I]..is absolutely correct. Two questions only by any owner, manager or employee of a business:

[I]Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. [/I]

This has been expanded to include Minature Horses by the way...[/QUOTE]

The answers they can give are "yes" and "none of your business", and businesses have to accept them. Which brings us back to people taking advantage of the system.

[Lsimon]

[quote name='ghstudio']I agree that it would be nice to have a standard but I don't think there is even a standard for "service dog" among the organizations that train service dogs. Who would enforce the standard so that someone who trained their own dog could be "documented"? not everyone can afford a trained "service dog"...how do you handle "home trained?".

The only way I can think of to enforce some sort of standard is essentially what we have....a doctor saying the person needs (or can benefit) from a service dog. We all know there are doctors who will sign that approval...just like they sign the handicapped parking forms.

Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with what we have...and we're stuck with the obnoxious people who take advantage of the system because they are "special"[/quote]

Having someone certified as at least being eligible for a service dog would eliminate a lot of fakes. I also don't see how this would infringe on the rights of the disabled either (by disclosing they have some unnamed disability) as the mere presence of a service dog infers that.

While some doctors might sign off on this I think that the number wouldn't be all that high as long as the current ADA definitions were maintained. The problem right now is that it is virtually impossible to enforce any aspect of the need for a service dog. Could you imagine how many more illegitimate users of handicap parking spaces there would be today if no permit was required and one was not able to even ask them about their disability.

[dcmjdc2]

[quote name='fleckle'][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=3]Years ago, while driving around the English countryside with our young son, we stopped for lunch at a roadside pub along the way.
Children were not allowed inside because liquor was served there.

Dogs were allowed inside, however, and we found it amusing that people brought their dogs in with them but had to leave their children out on the porch.


In the USA, different states have different liquor laws.
Long ago, I went into a package liquor store in the state of Oklahoma to buy a bottle of wine. It was a store that only sold sealed bottles, not a place where there were any open bottles, or where any beverages were consumed.
Yet you had to leave your minor children outside on the sidewalk, but could bring your dog in with you.

It appeared as though they were afraid the children might be corrupted just by seeing glass bottles on shelves. :D
They didn't even have a porch for the children the way the pub in England did.

[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]
I live in Oklahoma and it is still the law, unbelievable.

[keithm]

[quote name='dkjretired']Wish that was my dog because I would then own the restaurant.

Personally, I don't see a problem with showing documentation if they would change the law. The documentation would have to be based on some standards otherwise it would be worthless.[/QUOTE]
Fat chance! Our place is not open to the public! We prepare food & deliver it to where it is needed. We would NOT allow animals in our place of business due, to food borne disease possiblities from animals. So chew on that one!

[keithm]

[quote name='davekathy']Agree. No different than those abusing handicap placards or the welfare system. What ya gonna do! I guess it's the world we live in.[/QUOTE]
I see plenty of people using the "handicap" plates or placards that belong to a disabled spouse. It's true there are some who have some form of limited mobility, but it's pretty easy to spot.

[ghstudio]

[quote name='Kevin T Brown']The answers they can give are "yes" and "none of your business", and businesses have to accept them. Which brings us back to people taking advantage of the system.[/QUOTE]

If the individual says "none of your business", they are not protected by the law and can (and should be) refused entry.

[dkjretired]

[quote name='keithm']I see plenty of people using the "handicap" plates or placards that belong to a disabled spouse. It's true there are some who have some form of limited mobility, but it's pretty easy to spot.[/QUOTE]

Easy to spot, how the heck do you know. I have a handicapped placard and when I get out of a car to go to many stores I look fine but I can't walk long distances. Don't complain until you walk in someone else's shoes.

[dkjretired]

[quote name='keithm']Fat chance! Our place is not open to the public! We prepare food & deliver it to where it is needed. We would NOT allow animals in our place of business due, to food borne disease possiblities from animals. So chew on that one![/QUOTE]

That's not the way you explained it, if you are not open to the public you are okay. Don't have to chew on anything, next time explain the full situation, don't change it midway. People clearly stated it was for places open to the public and you try and be cute by giving an example of a place not open to the public. Grow up. Edited January 14, 2015 by dkjretired

[dkjretired]

[quote name='dcmjdc2']I live in Oklahoma and it is still the law, unbelievable.[/QUOTE]

There are loads of funny laws on the books. I was in charge of administering enforcement of ABC laws in my community as part of my job. In New Jersey you have to deal with federal laws, state, county and municipal laws.

[Ma Bell]

I wonder how many other Cukoos will attempt this after reading this thread.

[MizDemeanor]

[quote name='C-Dragons'][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]In case anyone is interested...
The Today show is featuring the training of a service dog to educate the public on how these wonderful dogs learn to do their jobs. There is a puppy that will be on their set for the next 18 months getting socialization training, etc., until he is ready for his formal schooling. His trainer said that he will be about 2 years old when he graduates and is placed with someone. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

I did. I'm anxious to see the progression of what this pup accomplishes for its handler and eventual owner through the Today Show as a platform of education.

I once was a Good Samaritan that assisted the blind. I don't think I did very well in that regard although I tried my best to do a good job.

[K.T.B.]

[quote name='ghstudio']If the individual says "none of your business", they are not protected by the law and can (and should be) refused entry.[/QUOTE]

The catch-22 is that you cannot ask about the person’s disability. So if you're asking what task the dog performs, they'll be revealing what disability they have....

Hence they're being able to say "none of your business" because they don't want anyone knowing their medical issue.

[greenrose]

The dog on theToday show will have long graduated be the time this thread ends.

[LMaxwell]

[quote name='Kevin T Brown']The catch-22 is that you cannot ask about the person’s disability. So if you're asking what task the dog performs, they'll be revealing what disability they have....

Hence they're being able to say "none of your business" because they don't want anyone knowing their medical issue.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how saying what the dog is trained to do is the same as disclosing your disability. "The dog is trained to alert me in instances where my health may be endangered." Simple

[cle-guy]

[quote name='Kevin T Brown']The catch-22 is that you cannot ask about the person’s disability. So if you're asking what task the dog performs, they'll be revealing what disability they have....

Hence they're being able to say "none of your business" because they don't want anyone knowing their medical issue.[/QUOTE]

Except that by statute the question can be "what task does the dog perform", but not "what is your handicap". Sure in many cases the answer to both questions will be the same result, however by statute the organization os protected by asking what the service is the dog performs. The individual is required under statute to answer that question in a manner that is satisfactory to the organization requesting that information. The individual is free to not answer the question in which case by not answering both questions, the organization can legally disallow the service animal's access.

That is it covered in this manner by statute, exempts it from HIPA regulations.

It's kind of like you can't ask an person in a job interview how old they are (though you can ask if they are of "legal age" to accept the job at hand), but you can request they list on an application the year they graduated from high school and college, and you can readily and generally interpret the age of the person applying.

[patty1955]

I still think most "emotional support" dogs are a misuse of the ADA, this video made me think: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIlPFRsseQ8[/URL]

[cle-guy]

ADA soes not cover emotional support gods but for extraordinary instances of PTSD, and this is recent.

Emotional Support dogs get allowances under Fair Housing laws and Airline Passenger laws, NOT under ADA directly.

Companies outside of housing and airlines tend to allow "emotional support dogs" just as a customer service issue, not because they have legal reason to.

[CathyCruises]

[quote name='cle-guy']ADA soes not cover emotional support gods but for extraordinary instances of PTSD, and this is recent.[/QUOTE]

Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes: What do you get when you cross an agnostic, a dyslexic, and an insomniac?

Someone who stays up all night wondering if there really IS a dog!!

[wwcruisers]

[quote name='CathyCruises']Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes: What do you get when you cross an agnostic, a dyslexic, and an insomniac?

Someone who stays up all night wondering if there really IS a dog!![/quote]

LOL :D -- thanks for the giggle (this thread need a little lightening-up) ;)

[ghstudio]

[quote name='cle-guy']Except that by statute the question can be "what task does the dog perform", but not "what is your handicap". Sure in many cases the answer to both questions will be the same result, however by statute the organization os protected by asking what the service is the dog performs. The individual is required under statute to answer that question in a manner that is satisfactory to the organization requesting that information. The individual is free to not answer the question in which case by not answering both questions, the organization can legally disallow the service animal's access.

That is it covered in this manner by statute, exempts it from HIPA regulations.

It's kind of like you can't ask an person in a job interview how old they are (though you can ask if they are of "legal age" to accept the job at hand), but you can request they list on an application the year they graduated from high school and college, and you can readily and generally interpret the age of the person applying.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, the law doesn't say what answer is acceptable....for example, if the individual says "the dog gets my newspaper in the morning" is that an acceptable answer? The law is so loose that it invites misuse....

[TeaBag]

[quote name='CathyCruises']Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes: What do you get when you cross an agnostic, a dyslexic, and an insomniac?

Someone who stays up all night wondering if there really IS a dog!![/quote]
Love it:D:D:D

[NLH Arizona]

[quote name='patty1955']I still think most "emotional support" dogs are a misuse of the ADA, this video made me think: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIlPFRsseQ8[/URL][/QUOTE]

Great video.

[babyher]

[quote name='ghstudio']Unfortunately, the law doesn't say what answer is acceptable....for example, if the individual says "the dog gets my newspaper in the morning" is that an acceptable answer? The law is so loose that it invites misuse....[/QUOTE]




Does sound like a nice little scam doesn't it ? Take whatever pet I want , where ever I want. Get a "certification" for it as easy as point and click on the internet , so I can yell "Certified Official Emotional Support Animal" in everyone's face.


And then God help anyone who dare asks what the condition is or what the animal is for.