Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[Ken the cruiser]

11 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

We might know soon if vaccination will be required.  It is rumored that new CDC guidelines are coming shortly.
 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Miami-Dade-mayor-CDC-guidelines-vaccines

This is GREAT news! Thanks for sharing!!

[grandgeezer]

2 hours ago, D C said:

 

What do you call someone who graduated at the bottom of their med-school class? 

 

"Doctor"

 

Being educated does not necessarily make one smart. 

Graduated is the key word. He met all the requirements to be called a Doctor. Not everyone can be #1 in their class, like you. 

[Miaminice]

9 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

Sorry Miaminice, while I agree with you that the anti-vaxers are most likely wrong, your statement about Alcatraz was over the top.  It is everyone's right to make the decision on vaccination.  I have had mine and glad that I did, but I respect the right of everyone to make that decision.

@HskrCrsr

 

4774Papa, as I clearly wrote in my post I fully accept that it is everyone’s decision - no matter how hard it is for me to understand how people can decide not to be vaccinated.

 

I made the Alcatraz part of my statement - and still stand to it - after reading numerous posts from the user addressed. It was directed specifically towards this user. His reasoning is not only ridiculous and far away from any facts but he also insults people who decide to be vaccinated in his statements. His answers ooze selfishness and ignorance and lack of empathy in every word... I can only imagine what his everyday behavior is like. 

IMHO People who - beyond decisions only affecting themselves - willingly endanger the well being of others should be kept away from others. You can choose where, if Alcatraz is over the top for you... 😉

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Miaminice

[hcat]

9 hours ago, zitsky said:

 

So why do we know about J&J?  And how long do you suppose it was before they found it?  A few hours maybe?

Posted on line  at WFLA  with reference to NYTimes:

 

"The New York Times reported that workers at Emergent BioSolutions, which produces both the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines, accidentally conflated the main ingredients several weeks ago and ruined 15 million doses."

 

What does "conflated" mean in this context?  Is this type of error  concerning to our  vaccine "experts" on this thread?

 

15 million unusable doses sounds like a big mistake to me.

 

Good news AP story says FDA announced Moderna can use larger vials with more doses..and can somehow extract 1 extra per existing  size vials.

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by hcat

[terrydtx]

16 hours ago, HskrCrsr said:

 

So you're ok with helping spread virus to the 2% that won't survive? Just how many people is that?

Of the 98% that survive, what percent spend significant time in the hospital? Or suffer long-lasting symptoms? You're fine with contributing to that, or not doing your part to prevent it?

 

If find it interesting that of the "Selfish stupid attitude IMO" comment, you only took issue with the "selfish" part.

 

I do apologize for any offense. That's not my intent. I really want to get on with enjoying life and cruising. Ignorance of the real effects of COVID is just going to make this take longer. Possibly longer than the 2 years you referenced earlier for another pandemic. 

I agree with your statement,  my next door neighbor, a  hospital  health care worker, "survived" Covid last April, however she now has permanent lung and heart damage as a result of being in the 98% of survivors.  She also was one of the first in line to get vaccinated in January.  

[terrydtx]

Both of my sisters (age 68 and 70) have been long time anti-vaxxers, never had flu shots ETC. One of them even said last year  "why worry about some virus that is 98% survivable". Both of them like my wife and I love cruising and foreign travel and do not wish to lose any more of the good travel years left to us. When the handwriting on the wall looked like vaccinations may be required to cruise or fly overseas, their anti-vaxxer's beliefs disappeared and they like my wife and I are now fully vaccinated. I also agree that it should be anyone's choice whether to vaccinate or not.  However, if that choice means that for the next few years you will have to stay home and not travel, that is your choice and the rest of us do not want to hear any complaints from you. Get stuck or be stuck at home, its your choice.

[TeeRick]

Some days here I check in on this thread and see what was posted in the previous 24 hours.  I enjoy the vaccine and immunology science and medicine and the intelligent questions and comments relating to the topic of vaccines and cruising.  Today I see a lot of banter back and forth off topic (for my interests anyway).  No problem for those of you who also enjoy this type of banter.  I just choose to ignore and not jump into the fray.  Why justify certain non-scientific anti-vaccine positions with my responses?  There are plenty of other forums for that.  That is my personal view.  Not judging anybody else.

 

To the topic of this thread.  If we get vaccinated we will cruise if we choose to cruise- for some as early as June this year.  That is exciting to a lot of people.  If we choose not to get vaccinated we will not cruise in the near future anyway until the virus recedes worldwide.  Kind of simple.  

[4774Papa]

3 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Some days here I check in on this thread and see what was posted in the previous 24 hours.  I enjoy the vaccine and immunology science and medicine and the intelligent questions and comments relating to the topic of vaccines and cruising.  Today I see a lot of banter back and forth off topic (for my interests anyway).  No problem for those of you who also enjoy this type of banter.  I just choose to ignore and not jump into the fray.  Why justify certain non-scientific anti-vaccine positions with my responses?  There are plenty of other forums for that.  That is my personal view.  Not judging anybody else.

 

To the topic of this thread.  If we get vaccinated we will cruise if we choose to cruise- for some as early as June this year.  That is exciting to a lot of people.  If we choose not to get vaccinated we will not cruise in the near future anyway until the virus recedes worldwide.  Kind of simple.  

TeeRick,

As usual, you are spot on.  Before I was vaccinated, I was very concerned about going to visit people like my 93 year old Aunt or 71 year old cousin that was a cancer survivor.  I didn't want to take a chance of infecting and possibly killing them. 

[TeeRick]

1 hour ago, hcat said:

Posted on line  at WFLA  with reference to NYTimes:

 

"The New York Times reported that workers at Emergent BioSolutions, which produces both the AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines, accidentally conflated the main ingredients several weeks ago and ruined 15 million doses."

 

What does "conflated" mean in this context?  Is this type of error  concerning to our  vaccine "experts" on this thread?

 

15 million unusable doses sounds like a big mistake to me.

 

Good news AP story says FDA announced Moderna can use larger vials with more doses..and can somehow extract 1 extra per existing  size vials.

 

hcat, the manufacturing plant in Baltimore was selected to make both the J&J vaccine and the AZ/Oxford vaccine.  Apparently an employee there mixed up a procedure (or ingredients) between the two.  Conflated them is a term meaning just that.  So the entire batch was "failed" according to the quality control and quality assurance standards under the universal rules called GMP.  Good Manufacturing Practices.  This is the Bible of manufacturing.

 

By the GMP system of checks and balances, the process worked, the mistake was discovered, and the batch was rejected.  It was still in the bulk stage meaning it was still in a single large amount prior to dispersing it into vials.  

 

I think that manufacturing two vaccines at the same plant can be accomplished.  But I have seen that when this is done, different teams of people are involved in separate parts of the plant.  So it is hard to understand how this could happen.  Statement from the company:

https://www.emergentbiosolutions.com/news/emergent-biosolutions-statement-status-current-manufacturing-covid-19-vaccines-companys

 

More on GMP.

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/medicines-good-manufacturing-processes#:~:text=What is GMP%3F-,Good manufacturing practice (GMP) is a system for ensuring that,through testing the final product.

[TeeRick]

9 hours ago, D C said:

Variants aside, how long should we expect ANY vaccine to last?  Urgent care asks routinely if I've had a tetanus shot in the past 5-10 years.  There are others where I may or may not have had a booster a very long time ago, but I'm never asked about. 

 

Do we know enough about the immune system to make an educated guess, or does the immune system really fade away at different rates for different diseases and vaccines? 

In general the fade away is more like "kept in reserve" and the answer is different for different infectious agents. This is more complicated than one would perhaps imagine.

 

First there are the immune biomolecules (antibodies, cytokines, etc) from the vaccine injection (or infection). Biomolecules have a limited lifetime in the body.  They turn over.  In some cases the original circulating antibodies will last months to years.  But antibodies do go away.  If no antigen is being expressed anymore no need for the body to continuously keep them around.  The same goes for specialized cells like activated B Cells and T Cells.   A second or booster dose of vaccine produces an even higher level of these biomolecules and activated cells.  So depending on the half life, more are around longer.  Fortunately for vaccines that is no where near the whole story but this first part is what a lot of people only focus on.

 

Second, there is the Memory Immune response.  Our immune systems become programmed after vaccination to recognize the antigen (or virus) again and immediately mount a broad based and vigorous response.  It is possible that this memory response capability does itself degrade in certain individuals or with age.  For example, we are all exposed to coronaviruses over our lifetimes.  Why are kids and younger adults spared the severity of COVID for the most part?  Are their younger and primed immune systems with coronavirus memory able to fight it off?  But some of the very elderly are highly susceptible.  As are the immunocompromised.  Faded memory response?   A speculation of course at this point.

[Pinboy]

40 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Today I see a lot of banter back and forth off topic (for my interests anyway).  No problem for those of you who also enjoy this type of banter.  I just choose to ignore and not jump into the fray. 

Sir--- Excellent , as always

I truly enjoy reading your comments and others who are extremely knowledgeable in the subject. The same is true on other threads. 

However, what brings " knots " to my stomach is reading posts from " Idiots " who simply enjoy stirring up sxxt .  Most are easy to spot---- like , oops, can't mention names.

We just had our vaccine recently-- and , am damn happy for it.

 

[mayleeman]

20 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Why are kids and younger adults spared the severity of COVID for the most part?  Are their younger and primed immune systems with coronavirus memory able to fight it off?  But some of the very elderly are highly susceptible. 

 

And although the latest antivaxxer points out that there was no vaccine for the Spanish flu, as has been mentioned here several times older people survived it better than 25 to 50 year olds. They had been exposed to a similar flu years before (1870s or'80s), and some of that acquired immunity is thought to have lasted for several decades. Then the survivors of the 1918 flu were still showing signs of remaining immunity into the 1960s (IIRC).

 

I wonder if there is a correlation between the severity of a viral disease and how long immunity lasts without boosters. 

[Ken the cruiser]

More good news with regards to traveling when fully vaccinated. Could the light be getting just a tad bit lighter, especially with the "coming soon" news from the Mayor of Miami-Dade??

 

CDC: Fully vaccinated people can travel in U.S. without tests or quarantines (nbcnews.com)

 

CDC to Shortly Issue New Guidelines to Restart Cruising - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

Edited April 2, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[Fouremco]

13 hours ago, farmermd said:

Wake up everyone- this is a slippery slope we are going down. 

I can remember the same silly argument being made when car seat belts were first made mandatory. 

[K.T.B.]

4 hours ago, terrydtx said:

Both of my sisters (age 68 and 70) have been long time anti-vaxxers, never had flu shots ETC. One of them even said last year  "why worry about some virus that is 98% survivable". Both of them like my wife and I love cruising and foreign travel and do not wish to lose any more of the good travel years left to us. When the handwriting on the wall looked like vaccinations may be required to cruise or fly overseas, their anti-vaxxer's beliefs disappeared and they like my wife and I are now fully vaccinated. I also agree that it should be anyone's choice whether to vaccinate or not.  However, if that choice means that for the next few years you will have to stay home and not travel, that is your choice and the rest of us do not want to hear any complaints from you. Get stuck or be stuck at home, its your choice.

 

I regret than I can like your comment only once.  Well said. The 3 sentences I bolded should be the advertising campaign slogan to get vaccinated.

[hcat]

6 hours ago, TeeRick said:

hcat, the manufacturing plant in Baltimore was selected to make both the J&J vaccine and the AZ/Oxford vaccine.  Apparently an employee there mixed up a procedure (or ingredients) between the two.  Conflated them is a term meaning just that.  So the entire batch was "failed" according to the quality control and quality assurance standards under the universal rules called GMP.  Good Manufacturing Practices.  This is the Bible of manufacturing.

 

By the GMP system of checks and balances, the process worked, the mistake was discovered, and the batch was rejected.  It was still in the bulk stage meaning it was still in a single large amount prior to dispersing it into vials.  

 

I think that manufacturing two vaccines at the same plant can be accomplished.  But I have seen that when this is done, different teams of people are involved in separate parts of the plant.  So it is hard to understand how this could happen.  Statement from the company:

https://www.emergentbiosolutions.com/news/emergent-biosolutions-statement-status-current-manufacturing-covid-19-vaccines-companys

 

More on GMP.

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/medicines-good-manufacturing-processes#:~:text=What is GMP%3F-,Good manufacturing practice (GMP) is a system for ensuring that,through testing the final product.

Thanks for your explantion and links. Very interesting .

Glad it was caught but I am  still not comfortable with the idea of this type of mistake on a large scale...too critical  a need for the product and more careful practices! Like if day care gave out peanut butter instead of soy????

 

[hcat]

18 hours ago, D C said:

Variants aside, how long should we expect ANY vaccine to last?  Urgent care asks routinely if I've had a tetanus shot in the past 5-10 years.  There are others where I may or may not have had a booster a very long time ago, but I'm never asked about. 

 

Do we know enough about the immune system to make an educated guess, or does the immune system really fade away at different rates for different diseases and vaccines? 

This  is  why  the 6 months protection  for one  of the vaccines is a bit disappointing.  But hoping  we will learn it lasts longer til boosters needed

[Homosassa]

While we are all probably excited at the possibility that cruising from US ports may start, here is the newest executive order from the Florida governor banning the requirement of covid 19 vaccinations as a requirement for obtaining service from any business in Florida (second page, section 2).  I am not sure how this will impact any cruise line wishing to sail from a Florida port  with fully vaccinated crew and passengers.

 

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf

 

 

[drarill]

9 hours ago, TeeRick said:

hcat, the manufacturing plant in Baltimore was selected to make both the J&J vaccine and the AZ/Oxford vaccine.  Apparently an employee there mixed up a procedure (or ingredients) between the two.  Conflated them is a term meaning just that.  So the entire batch was "failed" according to the quality control and quality assurance standards under the universal rules called GMP.  Good Manufacturing Practices.  This is the Bible of manufacturing.

 

By the GMP system of checks and balances, the process worked, the mistake was discovered, and the batch was rejected.  It was still in the bulk stage meaning it was still in a single large amount prior to dispersing it into vials.  

 

I think that manufacturing two vaccines at the same plant can be accomplished.  But I have seen that when this is done, different teams of people are involved in separate parts of the plant.  So it is hard to understand how this could happen.  Statement from the company:

https://www.emergentbiosolutions.com/news/emergent-biosolutions-statement-status-current-manufacturing-covid-19-vaccines-companys

 

More on GMP.

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/medicines-good-manufacturing-processes#:~:text=What is GMP%3F-,Good manufacturing practice (GMP) is a system for ensuring that,through testing the final product.

Rick, I read this article today, but is written in Spanish.  You don't need to speak Spanish to understand the graphs and tables, but if you do, much better.  The graphs and tables show all the plants where the vaccines are being manufactured in Europe. I wonder how many plants in the US are doing the same. 

[farmermd]

6 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I can remember the same silly argument being made when car seat belts were first made mandatory. 

which I still don’t wear. To quote the left - my body, my choice. 

[farmermd]

34 minutes ago, Homosassa said:

While we are all probably excited at the possibility that cruising from US ports may start, here is the newest executive order from the Florida governor banning the requirement of covid 19 vaccinations as a requirement for obtaining service from any business in Florida (second page, section 2).  I am not sure how this will impact any cruise line wishing to sail from a Florida port  with fully vaccinated crew and passengers.

 

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf

 

 

Let’s hope it prevents them from sailing from Florida until they drop the vaccine mandate. 

[D C]

1 hour ago, hcat said:

This  is  why  the 6 months protection  for one  of the vaccines is a bit disappointing.  But hoping  we will learn it lasts longer til boosters needed

That's the media spin. 

We're only 6 months in.  Yay! We know it lasts AT LEAST that long.   The media plays it with a negative spin as if they're hoping that it doesn't last a day longer. 

[D C]

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

While we are all probably excited at the possibility that cruising from US ports may start, here is the newest executive order from the Florida governor banning the requirement of covid 19 vaccinations as a requirement for obtaining service from any business in Florida (second page, section 2).  I am not sure how this will impact any cruise line wishing to sail from a Florida port  with fully vaccinated crew and passengers.

 

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf

 

 

The cruise industry is probably asking him right now if he's ever heard the phrase "elephant in the room". 

[docsneeze]

14 minutes ago, D C said:

That's the media spin. 

We're only 6 months in.  Yay! We know it lasts AT LEAST that long.   The media plays it with a negative spin as if they're hoping that it doesn't last a day longer. 

    Completely agree.  First subject in August 2019, 4 months initial evaluation, then periodic evaluation of neutralizing antibodies done in February-March.  So it lasts at least 6 months baed on available data.  Subjects commit to 2 years of follow-up so will know more over time.  Hopefully, it will last at least one to two years.  TeeRick completely accurate on explanation and well done.  

       By the way, just for the interested, doctors are privileged to attend medical school but I wouldn't say that all of them are necessarily brilliant.  A good doctor combines reasonable intelligence with compassion and understanding.  Unfortunately, some are limited in compassion and even a few are limited in intelligence.  Fortunately, the vast majority are very bright and very dedicated to their patients. After all, without patients there would be no reason for us to exist!

[docsneeze]

2 minutes ago, docsneeze said:

    Completely agree.  First subject in August 2019, 4 months initial evaluation, then periodic evaluation of neutralizing antibodies done in February-March.  So it lasts at least 6 months baed on available data.  Subjects commit to 2 years of follow-up so will know more over time.  Hopefully, it will last at least one to two years.  TeeRick completely accurate on explanation and well done.  

       By the way, just for the interested, doctors are privileged to attend medical school but I wouldn't say that all of them are necessarily brilliant.  A good doctor combines reasonable intelligence with compassion and understanding.  Unfortunately, some are limited in compassion and even a few are limited in intelligence.  Fortunately, the vast majority are very bright and very dedicated to their patients. After all, without patients there would be no reason for us to exist!

Excuse me, I meant August 2020, not 2019.  See, some of us are not so smart!