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Will vaccines now be required?


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1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

I've read a few articles recently which suggest that the COVID anti-vaxxers may face a broader range of mandatory vaccine requirements than travel. One example cited was the possibility that some businesses with employees working from home might require them to be vaccinated if they wish to return to the office. Gyms might require their members to be vaccinated, and various clubs and organizations might place the same demands upon their members. The list goes on. There are a number of thorny legal and ethical questions still to be addressed, and the outcome will vary from locale to locale, but there is little doubt that the anti-vaxxers will become social pariahs in the months and years to come.   

In the US you cannot mandate a vaccination -IF THERE IS A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.  That could be permanently wearing a mask or working or learning from home.

Local schools - Grades 9-12 and Universities - are discussing vaccinations or only online classes.  Several employers are planning on mandatory vac or working from home.  Where that is not possible the employee can vac or resign.  Government is looking at required vaccination and requiring proof to enter government buildings.

Am done with arguing about what is needed.  Only know DW has several health issues and want to protect her best as possible.

Not getting vaccinated may well have consequences that at least for a while; effect and limit all facets of one's life

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2 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

In the US you cannot mandate a vaccination -IF THERE IS A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.  That could be permanently wearing a mask or working or learning from home.

Local schools - Grades 9-12 and Universities - are discussing vaccinations or only online classes.  Several employers are planning on mandatory vac or working from home.  Where that is not possible the employee can vac or resign.  Government is looking at required vaccination and requiring proof to enter government buildings.

Am done with arguing about what is needed.  Only know DW has several health issues and want to protect her best as possible.

Not getting vaccinated may well have consequences that at least for a while; effect and limit all facets of one's life

All I can add is VAX ME UP!!!

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59 minutes ago, nocl said:

If someone has active COVID then it certainly should be listed, just as if someone is obese, has high blood pressure and any other factors that may be a factor in death.

 

They are also finding that some impacts of COVID (even is asymptomatic cases) are in damage to heart, circulatory system, kidneys and brain where the impact might not show up for months after active disease ends.

Just wondering what the cause of death on a death certificate has to do with cruising?

If one wants the best picture possible go to the total US or Canada or ??? monthly death numbers.  Take a look at 2018, 2019 and 2020 - up to only August as it takes 90-120 days for the number to be complete.  The numbers are quite clear as the only two changes are COVID and a reduction in Southern Hemisphere for flu this year.

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1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

I've read a few articles recently which suggest that the COVID anti-vaxxers may face a broader range of mandatory vaccine requirements than travel. One example cited was the possibility that some businesses with employees working from home might require them to be vaccinated if they wish to return to the office. Gyms might require their members to be vaccinated, and various clubs and organizations might place the same demands upon their members. The list goes on. There are a number of thorny legal and ethical questions still to be addressed, and the outcome will vary from locale to locale, but there is little doubt that the anti-vaxxers will become social pariahs in the months and years to come.   

I have also read similar reports as what you state. The legal question may arise whether the government can mandate a universal vaccination, but private companies, airlines and cruise lines are well within their rights to require vaccinations of employees and customers. Also any foreign country will be in their rights to mandate vaccinations to enter their country. I read one story yesterday that both Quanta's Airlines and Australia are contemplating  requiring vaccinations to fly and enter their country.

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On 11/29/2020 at 5:44 PM, terrydtx said:

I have to believe most of the anti-vaxxers have not had a friend or loved one die from Covid. As someone who has had both, I can not fathom the idea of anyone not wanting to be vaccinated. Once Covid has personally touched you, your whole reality about the virus changes.

Thank you.   ITA.  

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1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Yes, I'm quite sure that there is overlap between the two groups, although I suspect that the anti-vaxxers comprise a relative minority.

I suspect that your suspicion is 100% accurate!

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On 11/29/2020 at 6:49 PM, KnowTheScore said:

 

No-one said anything was nefarious.  I simply stated the facts of how doctors has been instructed to complete death certificates in relation to Covid and stated my personal opinion that I question the accuracy of simply assessing known symptoms because so many are the same as colds, ILIs and Flu.

It's disingenuous imo to list Covid on the death certificate unless it is 100% tested and proven.

It's also disingenuous to list Covid on the certificate if the person was Covid positive 2-3 weeks before hand and subsequently got killed by something completely different.

Well yes, you never said anything was "nefarious", you just said (or very implicitly implied) they were falsifying the death certificates to pad the numbers.  You have no argument, NOTHING you say has been based on fact.  Because it makes the news does not make it true.  Trust the science and experts.🙄

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I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

Edited by nomad098
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41 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on.

I pretty much agree with most of your post but I have to take issue with the excerpt.  I don’t believe other passengers have run any real risk of catching a potentially deadly disease from an emotional support animal.  I don’t think your example, for anybody contemplating some sort of discrimination lawsuit, will be effective.

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1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

 

There is no major religion that is against vaccination.  That's why many states in the US are getting rid of the religious vaccine exemption.

 

I am sure the cruise lines will do the math for us.

 

Are there more people who would not cruise if not all passengers are vaccinated?

Or are there more people who would not cruise if they had to get a vaccine?

 

 

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1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, and there are aspects I don't fully agree with, but I  think this is a reasoned discussion. And there will be national differences, I'm sure, as you point out. Most religious exemptions in the US can be overruled, for instance, depending on the state and circumstances. I don't believe it's that simple in the UK, and I don't believe the EU has a policy across the member states. And there's a whole lot of the world's population that aren't in any of those groups!

 

The first two vaccines to get authorization have very good performance data, but no one knows yet if the next one or two, or more, will have different performance in different age groups, different underlying health conditions, etc. Fortunately, the two mRNA vaccines appear incredibly safe (acutely), and if they generally work, we probably buy a year or more to determine if one of the others is a significantly better booster. And some people will wait out.

 

The US CDC has taken the opposite recommendation on Varicella (chickenpox) and recommends it at 12-15 months and again at 4-6 years. Colleges and universities in the past have required MMR and meningococcal vaccines; the CDC recommends both in the US. I'm a few years removed from having to get an MMR at 33 as the easiest path to get into a graduate program, so I haven't tracked those requirements.

 

Requiring immunization of employees has basis and I'm sure limitations in labor law and union contracts; requiring it for customers will almost certainly be a far more complicated legal question, country to country, than I want to think about. Requiring immunizations for entry into a foreign country is pretty well established in international law, and, for instance, if half the Caribbean islands start requiring proof of immunization, this is a moot point for the most part, and the cruise lines will do what they do with all immigration requirement; tell you to RT$M and it's all on you...

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2 hours ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

"I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards."   You left out the part where coronavirus does NOT discriminate!

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6 hours ago, d9704011 said:

I pretty much agree with most of your post but I have to take issue with the excerpt.  I don’t believe other passengers have run any real risk of catching a potentially deadly disease from an emotional support animal.  I don’t think your example, for anybody contemplating some sort of discrimination lawsuit, will be effective.

 

I suppose the point is people will use loopholes to circumvent rules and discrimination laws are different around the world.

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6 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

There is no major religion that is against vaccination.  That's why many states in the US are getting rid of the religious vaccine exemption.

 

I am sure the cruise lines will do the math for us.

 

Are there more people who would not cruise if not all passengers are vaccinated?

Or are there more people who would not cruise if they had to get a vaccine?

 

 

 

Different laws different parts of the world what is done in the US does not apply to the rest of the world.

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5 hours ago, LGW59 said:

"I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards."   You left out the part where coronavirus does NOT discriminate!

 

No it doesn't people do

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5 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, and there are aspects I don't fully agree with, but I  think this is a reasoned discussion. And there will be national differences, I'm sure, as you point out. Most religious exemptions in the US can be overruled, for instance, depending on the state and circumstances. I don't believe it's that simple in the UK, and I don't believe the EU has a policy across the member states. And there's a whole lot of the world's population that aren't in any of those groups!

 

 

The UK government could not get national ID cards passed into law for safety and security even after terrorist attacks, I suspect an internal national vaccine certification system would be beyond them due to a substantial governmental opposition against vaccine certificates.

 

The minister in the UK put in charge of covid vaccines suggested bars and events might require vaccine certification and there has been quite a lot of push back from all sectors of the UK including bars and event organisations.

 

I am living in an area of the UK that come Friday 6pm alcohol laws will be on a par with some of the middle eastern countries, no alcohol at all in bars, restaurants or cafes, these must shut by 6pm everyday and only certain places allowed to sell alcohol to consumed at home, at least until 17th December but quite possible longer, it's not gone down well with businesses or the majority of the population. 

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18 hours ago, Fouremco said:

You've asked that question previously on this thread and have received multiple responses. If you aren't happy with the answers, stop asking the question.

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

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26 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

I agree the anti-vaxxers will never change their minds and come on these threads to merely troll. The rest of us will have the satisfaction of knowing most of them will be stuck in their basements unable to travel for the next few years.

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Neither are Celebrity cruisers by their posts one is NCL and Royal, the other as I said previously is P&O.

I like TeeRick and Terrydtx think they are just here for the argument, I will not respond to their post. Maybe we leave the thread to them😂😂😂

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1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

LOL--- I love reading posts from " trolls " . It gets my adrenalin going. 

( Better not mention names  here-- but, one is a  "Marketing Expert " making over $200 K,  but , can't write proper English  ).

Question,  since I'm still relatively new to this ----- Is it possible that the same person is able to post under different names on several threads ? 

 

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Just now, Pinboy said:

Question,  since I'm still relatively new to this ----- Is it possible that the same person is able to post under different names on several threads ? 

 

Theoretically. They would have to use different email addresses and take the time to sign in and out - or use different browsers (Firefox, Chrome, etc.) for each identity they create. A lot of work if you ask me, but it's possible.

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5 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

I don't remotely agree.

 

Vaccination IS NOT a guarantee that an individual can't or won't carry and spread a virus or disease.  Vaccination primarily protects YOU from getting serious complications from the disease when it comes your way.

 

People who have flu vaccines still carry and spread Flu, in fact one study found that those vaccinated spread Flu up to 6 times more than those who were not vaccinated

 

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/5/1081

 

"In adjusted models, we observed 6.3 (95% CI 1.9–21.5) times more aerosol shedding among cases with vaccination in the current and previous season compared with having no vaccination in those two seasons"

 

There have been numerous outbreaks of both Mumps and Measles that were sparked off by kids that had been fully vaccinated.

 

Your notion that port authorities will make their decisions based on who has been vaccinated or not is simply wrong, sorry.   What they are interested in is how many reported cases of any given disease or illness have been recorded on-board and the ship Captain is legally required to divulge that information.  Whether you have been vaccinated or not doesn't enter the equation.

 

The entire crux of what you are suggesting relies totally on there being 100% effectiveness of vaccines which is just fantasy.   Even if 1 in 10 people vaccinated are not be protected then on a ship of 3000 pax that means 300 are not protected.   So no, port authorities are not going to be interested in any kind of worthless vaccination certificate.  What they will want to know is whether there are any positive cases of Covid or other diseases on-board or whether any passenger or crew member is currently showing any symptoms of such.

 

That is precisely how and why port authorities have been turning ships away during the pandemic.

 

The recent start ups of some cruise lines in past months has clearly shown that many cruising customers have been very ready and willing to step on-board ships despite there being no vaccines available.  They have done so because the ships have implemented robust testing before and during the voyage.  

 

There are of course a minority (imo) of less informed cruisers who are waxing lyrical about mandating vaccines but they neither understand the limitations of vaccines nor the practicalities involved in what they ask for.  

It does not have to be 100% effective. It just has to bring the spread down and reduce the severity to or below that of the seasonal flu strains. The seasonal flu does shut anything down, nor does it have the transmissibility or  fatality rate of COVID-19.

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1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

Guilty, a weak moment on my part. :classic_wacko:

 

I do wish that CC would tweak the ignore function to include posts quoting people we ignore. Then they would be truly out of sight, out of mind.

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On 11/28/2020 at 7:47 PM, markeb said:


OK. Tell me how we measure the asymptomatic. PCR?  Only indicates the viral RNA is present. Seroconversion? Maybe, but equally maybe not. It’s essentially impossible to prove a negative in science. You disprove the null hypothesis; you can’t prove it. Where is the myth? The data openly states the vaccine endpoints are disease (symptom) reduction. I really don’t understand your point. 
 

Absence of proof that the vaccines prevent asymptomatic transmission is not proof that it doesn’t. And 95% effective is measles territory, one of the most effective vaccines ever. And I’m not aware of any serious public health authority taking issue with measles vaccine. 
 


 

 

Measles vaccination rate is only around 90%.And when was the last time anyone saw a case of measles? That’s herd immunity.

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15 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, and there are aspects I don't fully agree with, but I  think this is a reasoned discussion. And there will be national differences, I'm sure, as you point out. Most religious exemptions in the US can be overruled, for instance, depending on the state and circumstances. I don't believe it's that simple in the UK, and I don't believe the EU has a policy across the member states. And there's a whole lot of the world's population that aren't in any of those groups!

 

The first two vaccines to get authorization have very good performance data, but no one knows yet if the next one or two, or more, will have different performance in different age groups, different underlying health conditions, etc. Fortunately, the two mRNA vaccines appear incredibly safe (acutely), and if they generally work, we probably buy a year or more to determine if one of the others is a significantly better booster. And some people will wait out.

 

The US CDC has taken the opposite recommendation on Varicella (chickenpox) and recommends it at 12-15 months and again at 4-6 years. Colleges and universities in the past have required MMR and meningococcal vaccines; the CDC recommends both in the US. I'm a few years removed from having to get an MMR at 33 as the easiest path to get into a graduate program, so I haven't tracked those requirements.

 

Requiring immunization of employees has basis and I'm sure limitations in labor law and union contracts; requiring it for customers will almost certainly be a far more complicated legal question, country to country, than I want to think about. Requiring immunizations for entry into a foreign country is pretty well established in international law, and, for instance, if half the Caribbean islands start requiring proof of immunization, this is a moot point for the most part, and the cruise lines will do what they do with all immigration requirement; tell you to RT$M and it's all on you...

Flu vaccine already required for most hospital employees in North Carolina. Very few exceptions.

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