Will vaccines now be required?

[TeeRick]

18 hours ago, Fouremco said:

You've asked that question previously on this thread and have received multiple responses. If you aren't happy with the answers, stop asking the question.

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

[terrydtx]

26 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

I agree the anti-vaxxers will never change their minds and come on these threads to merely troll. The rest of us will have the satisfaction of knowing most of them will be stuck in their basements unable to travel for the next few years.

[emmas gran]

Neither are Celebrity cruisers by their posts one is NCL and Royal, the other as I said previously is P&O.

I like TeeRick and Terrydtx think they are just here for the argument, I will not respond to their post. Maybe we leave the thread to them😂😂😂

Edited December 1, 2020 by emmas gran
Addition

[Pinboy]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

LOL--- I love reading posts from " trolls " . It gets my adrenalin going. 

( Better not mention names  here-- but, one is a  "Marketing Expert " making over $200 K,  but , can't write proper English  ).

Question,  since I'm still relatively new to this ----- Is it possible that the same person is able to post under different names on several threads ? 

 

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

Just now, Pinboy said:

Question,  since I'm still relatively new to this ----- Is it possible that the same person is able to post under different names on several threads ? 

 

Theoretically. They would have to use different email addresses and take the time to sign in and out - or use different browsers (Firefox, Chrome, etc.) for each identity they create. A lot of work if you ask me, but it's possible.

[larry_s_taco]

5 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

I don't remotely agree.

 

Vaccination IS NOT a guarantee that an individual can't or won't carry and spread a virus or disease.  Vaccination primarily protects YOU from getting serious complications from the disease when it comes your way.

 

People who have flu vaccines still carry and spread Flu, in fact one study found that those vaccinated spread Flu up to 6 times more than those who were not vaccinated

 

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/5/1081

 

"In adjusted models, we observed 6.3 (95% CI 1.9–21.5) times more aerosol shedding among cases with vaccination in the current and previous season compared with having no vaccination in those two seasons"

 

There have been numerous outbreaks of both Mumps and Measles that were sparked off by kids that had been fully vaccinated.

 

Your notion that port authorities will make their decisions based on who has been vaccinated or not is simply wrong, sorry.   What they are interested in is how many reported cases of any given disease or illness have been recorded on-board and the ship Captain is legally required to divulge that information.  Whether you have been vaccinated or not doesn't enter the equation.

 

The entire crux of what you are suggesting relies totally on there being 100% effectiveness of vaccines which is just fantasy.   Even if 1 in 10 people vaccinated are not be protected then on a ship of 3000 pax that means 300 are not protected.   So no, port authorities are not going to be interested in any kind of worthless vaccination certificate.  What they will want to know is whether there are any positive cases of Covid or other diseases on-board or whether any passenger or crew member is currently showing any symptoms of such.

 

That is precisely how and why port authorities have been turning ships away during the pandemic.

 

The recent start ups of some cruise lines in past months has clearly shown that many cruising customers have been very ready and willing to step on-board ships despite there being no vaccines available.  They have done so because the ships have implemented robust testing before and during the voyage.  

 

There are of course a minority (imo) of less informed cruisers who are waxing lyrical about mandating vaccines but they neither understand the limitations of vaccines nor the practicalities involved in what they ask for.  

It does not have to be 100% effective. It just has to bring the spread down and reduce the severity to or below that of the seasonal flu strains. The seasonal flu does shut anything down, nor does it have the transmissibility or  fatality rate of COVID-19.

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco why even respond to this poster KnowTheScore?  He/She is clearly trying to be a troll on multiple threads.  Best to not take the bait methinks.

Guilty, a weak moment on my part. 

 

I do wish that CC would tweak the ignore function to include posts quoting people we ignore. Then they would be truly out of sight, out of mind.

[tosteve1]

On 11/28/2020 at 7:47 PM, markeb said:

OK. Tell me how we measure the asymptomatic. PCR?  Only indicates the viral RNA is present. Seroconversion? Maybe, but equally maybe not. It’s essentially impossible to prove a negative in science. You disprove the null hypothesis; you can’t prove it. Where is the myth? The data openly states the vaccine endpoints are disease (symptom) reduction. I really don’t understand your point. 
 

Absence of proof that the vaccines prevent asymptomatic transmission is not proof that it doesn’t. And 95% effective is measles territory, one of the most effective vaccines ever. And I’m not aware of any serious public health authority taking issue with measles vaccine. 
 

 

 

Measles vaccination rate is only around 90%.And when was the last time anyone saw a case of measles? That’s herd immunity.

[tosteve1]

15 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, and there are aspects I don't fully agree with, but I  think this is a reasoned discussion. And there will be national differences, I'm sure, as you point out. Most religious exemptions in the US can be overruled, for instance, depending on the state and circumstances. I don't believe it's that simple in the UK, and I don't believe the EU has a policy across the member states. And there's a whole lot of the world's population that aren't in any of those groups!

 

The first two vaccines to get authorization have very good performance data, but no one knows yet if the next one or two, or more, will have different performance in different age groups, different underlying health conditions, etc. Fortunately, the two mRNA vaccines appear incredibly safe (acutely), and if they generally work, we probably buy a year or more to determine if one of the others is a significantly better booster. And some people will wait out.

 

The US CDC has taken the opposite recommendation on Varicella (chickenpox) and recommends it at 12-15 months and again at 4-6 years. Colleges and universities in the past have required MMR and meningococcal vaccines; the CDC recommends both in the US. I'm a few years removed from having to get an MMR at 33 as the easiest path to get into a graduate program, so I haven't tracked those requirements.

 

Requiring immunization of employees has basis and I'm sure limitations in labor law and union contracts; requiring it for customers will almost certainly be a far more complicated legal question, country to country, than I want to think about. Requiring immunizations for entry into a foreign country is pretty well established in international law, and, for instance, if half the Caribbean islands start requiring proof of immunization, this is a moot point for the most part, and the cruise lines will do what they do with all immigration requirement; tell you to RT$M and it's all on you...

Flu vaccine already required for most hospital employees in North Carolina. Very few exceptions.

[LGW59]

5 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Guilty, a weak moment on my part. 

 

I do wish that CC would tweak the ignore function to include posts quoting people we ignore. Then they would be truly out of sight, out of mind.

but sometimes it is too hard to resist...

[nocl]

7 hours ago, Pinboy said:

LOL--- I love reading posts from " trolls " . It gets my adrenalin going. 

( Better not mention names  here-- but, one is a  "Marketing Expert " making over $200 K,  but , can't write proper English  ).

Question,  since I'm still relatively new to this ----- Is it possible that the same person is able to post under different names on several threads ? 

 

One cannot judge either ones knowledge or job based on CC posts.  Considering that many of these posts are quickly done on cell phone type key boards that can generate strange auto correct results, the language used and presence of errors is not unusual.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

22 hours ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

 

Totally disagree. Threatening lawsuits isn't going to stop the Cruiselines from requiring the vaccine. In fact, I imagine it's the other way around. If someone gets Covid while on a ship and the vaccine is readilyavailable but not required or enforced... there will be a 'boatload' (pardon the pun) of cruisers reaching out to lawyers. 

[larry_s_taco]

2 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

An Oxford study believes the UK has already achieved herd immunity.  Not surprising given that lots of the public already had levels of immunity before COVID even came along.  They have T-cell immunity from past bouts of colds, ILIs, Flu and other Coronaviruses.

 

Covid-19: Do many people have pre-existing immunity?

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

At least six studies have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-cells-common-cold-may-recognize-sars-cov-2

 

 

Here's the article that references that Oxford study:

 

Oxford Study: Britain Has Reached Herd Immunity

https://order-order.com/2020/07/17/oxford-study-britain-has-reached-herd-immunity/

 

and here's the actual study it is talking about:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.15.20154294v2.full.pdf

 

T cells are only part of the story. The same has not been proven with antibody response. Without both parts of the immune system fighting Covid 19, you do not have the immunity needed. Only 5 percent have shown the appropriate antibody response to Covid. That is far from herd immunity.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

An Oxford study believes the UK has already achieved herd immunity.  Not surprising given that lots of the public already had levels of immunity before COVID even came along.  They have T-cell immunity from past bouts of colds, ILIs, Flu and other Coronaviruses.

 

Covid-19: Do many people have pre-existing immunity?

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

At least six studies have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-cells-common-cold-may-recognize-sars-cov-2

 

 

Here's the article that references that Oxford study:

 

Oxford Study: Britain Has Reached Herd Immunity

https://order-order.com/2020/07/17/oxford-study-britain-has-reached-herd-immunity/

 

and here's the actual study it is talking about:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.15.20154294v2.full.pdf

 

As usual you find some articles and then try and present them out of context.  For example the following article states: 

 

 “It still remains to be addressed whether this immune memory reactivity influences clinical outcomes and translates into some degrees of protection from more severe disease

 

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-cells-common-cold-may-recognize-sars-cov-2

 

So the studies indicate lab results but as of yet there is no conclusion on if the T cell response actually provides protection.  The next link deals with the same T Cell response and uses it to ask a number of questions which within the scope of the document and the current level of science remain unanswered

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

 

As far as herd immunity and the Oxford study

 

From the article there is a key line that with the current number of COVID cases would seem that the Oxford study and the assumption that only 20% would be necessary for herd immunity would be incorrect.  Since we now have the proof in the pudding

 

Unfortunately the proof in the pudding would be a second wave of Coronavirus, probably in the winter, which no one – however confident they are about herd immunity – would want to risk…

 

https://order-order.com/2020/07/17/oxford-study-britain-has-reached-herd-immunity/

 

Considering that this article and study was July.  They clearly were not correct in their assumptions based upon the current new case rates in the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, nocl said:

As usual you find some articles and then try and present them out of context.  For example the following article states: 

 

 “It still remains to be addressed whether this immune memory reactivity influences clinical outcomes and translates into some degrees of protection from more severe disease

 

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-cells-common-cold-may-recognize-sars-cov-2

 

So the studies indicate lab results but as of yet there is no conclusion on if the T cell response actually provides protection.  The next link deals with the same T Cell response and uses it to ask a number of questions which within the scope of the document and the current level of science remain unanswered

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

 

As far as herd immunity and the Oxford study

 

From the article there is a key line that with the current number of COVID cases would seem that the Oxford study and the assumption that only 20% would be necessary for herd immunity would be incorrect.  Since we now have the proof in the pudding

 

Unfortunately the proof in the pudding would be a second wave of Coronavirus, probably in the winter, which no one – however confident they are about herd immunity – would want to risk…

 

https://order-order.com/2020/07/17/oxford-study-britain-has-reached-herd-immunity/

 

Considering that this article and study was July.  They clearly were not correct in their assumptions based upon the current new case rates in the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

he/she clearly does not "KnowTheScore"...

[Pinboy]

27 minutes ago, nocl said:

One cannot judge either ones knowledge or job based on CC posts.  Considering that many of these posts are quickly done on cell phone type key boards that can generate strange auto correct results, the language used and presence of errors is not unusual.

Oh, we ,ok, I can get a pretty good  " feeling " based on someone's posts.

The " Marketing Expert " term I used came directly from how the poster refers to himself on the posts he posts.   

[lyndarra]

And the proof is not in the pudding. It's in the eating.

[LGW59]

38 minutes ago, nocl said:

One cannot judge either ones knowledge or job based on CC posts.  Considering that many of these posts are quickly done on cell phone type key boards that can generate strange auto correct results, the language used and presence of errors is not unusual.

Ahh let's see, MBoy has said he is a cruise line marketing expert, (LOL), so please do tell how is it judging to mention that in a response??  Tell me, I am all ears, even though I am deaf in one of them.

[nocl]

1 minute ago, LGW59 said:

Ahh let's see, MBoy has said he is a cruise line marketing expert, (LOL), so please do tell how is it judging to mention that in a response??  Tell me, I am all ears, even though I am deaf in one of them.

When the person posts

 

( Better not mention names  here-- but, one is a  "Marketing Expert " making over $200 K,  but , can't write proper English  ).

 

It certainly seems to be judging to me.  In context with the can't write proper English.

 

 

[LGW59]

4 minutes ago, nocl said:

When the person posts

 

( Better not mention names  here-- but, one is a  "Marketing Expert " making over $200 K,  but , can't write proper English  ).

 

It certainly seems to be judging to me.  In context with the can't write proper English.

 

 

You can mention my name it is OK with me.  You've seen what he has written, I will assume.  Besides his grammar, he has disparaged a certain segment, or rather multiple segments of society, which represents a large portion of the cruise line business that he purports to represent.  Get off your soap box and go back to telling us about vaccines.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

Tin foil will be the least of the concerns when it comes to shortages. 

 

I do have a question though.

What % of the "wear the mask or don't cruise" are also anti-vaxers?  

[LGW59]

33 minutes ago, nocl said:

When the person posts

 

( Better not mention names  here-- but, one is a  "Marketing Expert " making over $200 K,  but , can't write proper English  ).

 

It certainly seems to be judging to me.  In context with the can't write proper English.

 

 

Oh and also never said he was "making over $200k", HE said cruise industry was paying $200k for marketing reports/surveys.  If you are going to contradict or fact check someone, it is perfectly fine, just make sure when you quote someone it is accurate.   

[Blackduck59]

7 hours ago, tosteve1 said:

Measles vaccination rate is only around 90%.And when was the last time anyone saw a case of measles? That’s herd immunity.

 

Um...Measles is making a resurgence. Thanks anti-vaxxers.

[Blackduck59]

2 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

Tin foil will be the least of the concerns when it comes to shortages. 

 

I do have a question though.

What % of the "wear the mask or don't cruise" are also anti-vaxers?  

 

Interesting question. I have always said that I would choose not to cruise if the mask rules didn't suit my personal definition of acceptable. I am definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer, my wife and I will definitely get vaccinated as soon as we are able to, depending on when we fit into the queue.

[nocl]

3 hours ago, LGW59 said:

You can mention my name it is OK with me.  You've seen what he has written, I will assume.  Besides his grammar, he has disparaged a certain segment, or rather multiple segments of society, which represents a large portion of the cruise line business that he purports to represent.  Get off your soap box and go back to telling us about vaccines.

Except  the poster of the comment, that I responded to was Pinboy not you