Seriously - Time for Carnival to get into the Great Lakes market

[KmomChicago]

51 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

A couple of years ago, I put together a package that I gave to some mgt friends at Carnival, that I thought was right on.  It was to take a Fantasy class ship, do a real makeover on her (mostly interior) and re-market her in a totally upscale enhanced cruise experience.  This experience (I called Carnival classic) would bring back the little things dropped along the way and retain the Carnival FUN .  LEt’s say they were not quiteas high on it as I was…..

I get that too. It’s far from clear that every idea, good or otherwise, is actually feasible. Nobody likes my other great idea either, Whiners, Winers and Weiners: anyone complaining on a cruise is put in a special lounge to share their complaints with one another until thoroughly sick of doing so. Unlimited box wine and hot dogs are served in said lounge 24/7. You can only enter the lounge once per cruise and must vocalize all complaints before exiting and you can stay as long as you like, stuffing yourself and drinking yourself silly. No one will respond to your complaints but you probably won’t care anymore.

Edited June 28, 2021 by KmomChicago

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

7 minutes ago, KmomChicago said:

I get that too. It’s far from clear that every idea, good or otherwise, is actually feasible.

It’s spitballing in my book.  Your idea may be serious or for fun.  It’s obviously not a bad idea in general and not intended to get CC readers to invest (looking at one conspicuous person responding here who thinks you work for Amway).  
 

We are STILL days away from actual Carnival cruises.  I give you a B+ for effort.  
 

I love all forms of travel & have been fortunate enough to have been on several forms of boat transportation including river, lake, sea and ocean.  I take it ALL in & appreciate every moment. 

[Jasonsterling]

I think that perhaps the area could support one ship for the sailings you imagine though there'd really need to be some marketing behind the why and where are we going aspect of it. I don't know, even in the summer I prefer getting away to the Caribbean and the more exotic feel of it I guess than the thought of sailing the Great Lakes. I live in Oklahoma and can drive to Galveston (although I often fly too)- even Chicago I'd want to fly to and certainly anything further east so there'd be that consideration for someone from this region of the Midwest as well and it feels like an Alaska style season which is usually more expensive than the Caribbean. Would it be more expensive? I don't know but I know Carnival and if they thought there was even a chance of making a profit from it they'd already have a ship there. There's somewhere around 80 million people in the Great Lakes Region- there's the population to justify it, so something else must be affecting that decision.

[Elaine5715]

3 hours ago, KmomChicago said:

yes with little staterooms and lounges. It’s just 4 hours but looks like fun.

Depends on the weather...sometimes it is very rough

[Old Fart Cruisers]

 

10 hours ago, klfrodo said:

Personally,,,, Lake Shore Drive is no Half Moon Cay.

 

As of last week the new name is officially "Jean Baptiste Point DuSable Lake Shore Drive", but I do have to agree, it's still no Half Moon Cay.  I'm not sure, but that just might be one of the longest street names in the country.

[tidecat]

11 hours ago, Old Fart Cruisers said:

All you have to do is design a cruise ship with all the Carnival venues and amenities you crave, that will also comply with seawaymax specifications:

Length740 ft (225.6 m)

Beam78 ft (23.8 m)

Height116.5 ft (35.5 m)

Draft26.51 ft (8.1 m)

Then just convince Carnival to build it and operate it in the great lakes in the summer and Caribbean or other itineraries the rest of the year😃

The Holiday Class was the closest to Seawaymax: 733 feet long, 25.5 foot draft . . . but a 93 foot beam. Even the older Carnival ships were all too wide.

 

If Carnival were going to do such a venture, the hardware would probably look a lot more like Seabourn Odyssey, just six feet narrower and less luxurious.

 

[Old Fart Cruisers]

11 minutes ago, tidecat said:

The Holiday Class was the closest to Seawaymax: 733 feet long, 25.5 foot draft . . . but a 93 foot beam. Even the older Carnival ships were all too wide.

 

If Carnival were going to do such a venture, the hardware would probably look a lot more like Seabourn Odyssey, just six feet narrower and less luxurious.

 

 

But in addition to just a Great Lakes Cruise, it could include a St. Lawrence Seaway transit, New England and Canada itinerary.  Could be interesting. . . 

[nyc12345]

I would love to do it at least once if the price is right.

 

I think the reason why they won't do this has to do with the fact that the ship has to be built in the U.S. and staffed by American workers, pushing costs high, thus impossible to run at the prices Carnival is charging for their Caribbean cruises.

[Wanna_Cruize]

4 minutes ago, nyc12345 said:

I would love to do it at least once if the price is right.

 

I think the reason why they won't do this has to do with the fact that the ship has to be built in the U.S. and staffed by American workers, pushing costs high, thus impossible to run at the prices Carnival is charging for their Caribbean cruises.

 

Couldn't they add a stop in Canada to avoid that requirement? 

[tidecat]

5 minutes ago, Old Fart Cruisers said:

 

But in addition to just a Great Lakes Cruise, it could include a St. Lawrence Seaway transit, New England and Canada itinerary.  Could be interesting. . . 

I just don't know if Carnival could feasibly pull it off. Mardi Gras cost $950 Million to build and holds 5,282 at double occupancy, or just under $180,000/lower berth.

 

Even if Carnival could build a Seawaymax-compliant version of Seabourn Odyssey for $250 Million, it would need triple the passenger capacity of the Odyssey. Doubling the capacity might be realistic given how large Seabourn suites are, but triple would likely not be feasible.

[tidecat]

9 minutes ago, Wanna_Cruize said:

 

Couldn't they add a stop in Canada to avoid that requirement? 

Yes.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, nyc12345 said:

I would love to do it at least once if the price is right.

 

I think the reason why they won't do this has to do with the fact that the ship has to be built in the U.S. and staffed by American workers, pushing costs high, thus impossible to run at the prices Carnival is charging for their Caribbean cruises.

No, as long as the cruise is a "closed loop" that begins and ends in the same US port, or a cruise that starts or ends in Canada, the ship can be built anywhere, and fly any flag.  The reason the existing cruises are so expensive is that some of the lines choose to be US flag, allowing them to sail from one US port and disembark in another US port, and also because there is not the economy of scale that is present on larger ships.

[KmomChicago]

 

6 hours ago, tidecat said:

I just don't know if Carnival could feasibly pull it off. Mardi Gras cost $950 Million to build and holds 5,282 at double occupancy, or just under $180,000/lower berth.

 

Even if Carnival could build a Seawaymax-compliant version of Seabourn Odyssey for $250 Million, it would need triple the passenger capacity of the Odyssey. Doubling the capacity might be realistic given how large Seabourn suites are, but triple would likely not be feasible.

 

 

The small ship lines are only growing, and Hapag Lloyd's ship Hanseatic Inspiration in this market shows that interest in this area is as well. For foreign visitors I do envision this concept being a domestic answer to the European river cruises and of course there is no reason the itineraries couldn't include the eastern reach of the St. Lawrence as well as NE Canada which is already plied by large mainstream ships.

 

The model might not be quite in place yet - and it might be that a mid-level Carnival Corporation brand like Princess or Holland America, would be a better fit - but the fact that they haven't done it yet, doesn't mean they are not thinking about whether and/or WHEN the time will be right to do so.

 

I'm not just pulling this out of thin air and this idea "of mine" isn't mine at all, whether you like it or think I am trying to waste someone else's money (LOL!). I am suggesting the large corporations are actually contemplating this.  Yes, due to the fiasco of the pandemic they have to get all the current ships back in the water and generating income, so 2021 is not going to be the year they put a team on that particular project but I truly think it is only a matter of time. There are hints out there if you look. 

 

https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/potential-for-a-large-cruise-ship-on-the-upper-great-lakes

 

https://greatlakesseaway.org/cruising-the-great-lakes-more-ships-more-passengers-more-stops-in-cleveland/

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No, as long as the cruise is a "closed loop" that begins and ends in the same US port, or a cruise that starts or ends in Canada, the ship can be built anywhere, and fly any flag.  The reason the existing cruises are so expensive is that some of the lines choose to be US flag, allowing them to sail from one US port and disembark in another US port, and also because there is not the economy of scale that is present on larger ships.

On a semi related basis, there was a link on FB yesterday that referenced the shipping industry and the quiet loss of a US industry and a ton of ships.  Thought of you as I read the link.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

On a semi related basis, there was a link on FB yesterday that referenced the shipping industry and the quiet loss of a US industry and a ton of ships.  Thought of you as I read the link.

Don't do facebook, but thanks for the thought.  The US maritime has been declining since WW2, and unfortunately due to the very act that helped win that war, the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 (not the Jones Act or PVSA that many think, since those acts only affected coastwise shipping in the first place).  We subsidized ourselves into building the biggest maritime in the world to win the war, and then just kept subsidizing instead of innovating, and we lost our way.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, KmomChicago said:

I'm not just pulling this out of thin air and this idea "of mine" isn't mine at all, whether you like it or think I am trying to waste someone else's money (LOL!). I am suggesting the large corporations are actually contemplating this.

I don't see in either article where there is any contemplation by major cruise lines for large ships.  I see interest in small and small/mid sized vessels.  And, even the Maritime Executive article that proposes a large ship, requires that it be built in the Lakes (due to the size limitation of the Welland Canal), so very costly to begin with, and to connect to Lake Ontario it would require a rebuilding of the Welland Canal.

[sparks1093]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't see in either article where there is any contemplation by major cruise lines for large ships.  I see interest in small and small/mid sized vessels.  And, even the Maritime Executive article that proposes a large ship, requires that it be built in the Lakes (due to the size limitation of the Welland Canal), so very costly to begin with, and to connect to Lake Ontario it would require a rebuilding of the Welland Canal.

Could a smaller/older cruise ship be re-purposed for this type of itinerary or is the smallest cruise ship still too large for the waterways involved? 

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Could a smaller/older cruise ship be re-purposed for this type of itinerary or is the smallest cruise ship still too large for the waterways involved? 

The biggest problem is the width of the locks.  They are built for long, narrow cargo ships, that use the vast weight of the cargo to provide stability, instead of a wider beam.  Cruise ships use beam over weight, so even ships that are shorter than the lock maximums are too wide for the locks.

[Joebucks]

22 hours ago, fyree39 said:

I would love something like this and have been looking at other lines that do these Great Lakes cruises. EXTREMELY expensive. I think it's because they'll have US workers making US wages, possibly union, pulling into US ports with US port fees and US taxes on all purchases anywhere on the ship. If you've ever been on a California Coastal, you'll see those prices are higher, too. And they have foreign nationals for employees who get lower wages. 

 

That's why I don't think it's viable for the usual Carnival cruiser.

 

This, next to seasonal weather, are the two biggest hurdles. I do think that if any ship could be sensible as a great lake cruise, it might be a tad easier to keep a lower staffing level.

 

21 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While the small, high end (and lots of them are not "high end", just expensive) lines may be having a good business model, that does not translate into a greatly expanded market.  What you are proposing would likely double the Great Lakes cruises' total capacity with just one or two ships.  There is no telling whether or not the market could withstand that increase in supply.  As others have noted, the cruise lines do their demographic studies and determine not only what kind of ships their target market want, but where they want to go, and most would not choose a "domestic" (US and Canada only) itinerary.  As for using lakes ships in other markets in the off season, again, a ship built for one demographic and one market, does not necessarily translate to success in another market and demographic.

 

While anecdotal, I don't know a single person that is interested (or many that even know about the option) of a great lakes cruise at the moment, including myself. I would absolutely be interested in one, granted all of the options are right. As someone who lives in Cleveland, that is the perfect getaway. People also underestimate the popularity of Kelley's Island and Put in Bay. 

 

21 hours ago, cmukid87 said:

Great Lakes cruising would be awesome!  Slightly bias since I live in Michigan, though.

 

Right? I don't see this becoming this huge market. We won't be seeing an Oasis class anytime soon in the great lakes. I doubt people would come from all over the world either (some might). For us locals, it is an awesome OPTION. Some people just want to getaway for a few days. Flights and hotels to other states add a whole layer of complexity that will count some people out. I say a ship of 500-1000.

[Roger88]

21 hours ago, cmukid87 said:

Great Lakes cruising would be awesome!  Slightly bias since I live in Michigan, though.

Greak Late cruising has always been a great way to cruise. I hope it will be back in full swing soon. I always dreamed of going there anyway. I heard the place is very nice and beautiful. People who live there probably dont even realise it 

[KmomChicago]

56 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

 I heard the place is very nice and beautiful. People who live there probably dont even realise it 

 

Many places along the Great Lakes are huge cities and many places are pristine and natural and stunningly gorgeous.  Places like Torch Lake are just inland from the lake shore and might take care of all those wanting that tropical feel on their cruise.

 

I have lived in the far south suburbs of Chicago for the majority of my life (minus 16 years in Florida), and thus have visited the city's lakefront many times - I can assure you there are plenty of people who appreciate Lake Michigan as well as others who don't give a rip. 

 

I have also separately done a vacation which was a drive all the way around it, heading north through Wisconsin, visiting the Soo Locks and then Mackinac Island, then heading south through Michigan and Indiana. That was a cool road trip and it was VERY easy to find a week's worth of stuff along the shoreline to visit.

[asalligo]

20 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

A couple of years ago, I put together a package that I gave to some mgt friends at Carnival, that I thought was right on.  It was to take a Fantasy class ship, do a real makeover on her (mostly interior) and re-market her in a totally upscale enhanced cruise experience.  This experience (I called Carnival classic) would bring back the little things dropped along the way and retain the Carnival FUN .  LEt’s say they were not quiteas high on it as I was…..

I need this to happen!

 

 

[asalligo]

45 minutes ago, asalligo said:

I need this to happen!

 

 

Often when I say this, people say, well you need to try another product, but it is not that simple. I have now tried HAL, Celebrity, Norwegian and RC and they are good, but not Carnival. Journeys cruise is close. I just want Carnival to charge more and bring back the old product for a few ships. Heck even one ship. All the previous amenities and staffing as of old. 

[Nic6318]

On 6/28/2021 at 9:50 AM, KmomChicago said:

Hint hint folks. If we all sound enthusiastic maybe the suits take notice. I wouldn’t even suggest this if I hadn’t already enjoyed many visits to these places during my lifetime.

 

Hi

 

It would seem you are hoping for a Carnival price tag with accompanying amenities for something that is currently being offered at 5-6 times the cost without the amenities. I agree with what has already been pointed out, that if it was feasible, it would have already been done. If you just want to see the U.S. port towns (or Canadian cities for that matter), a road trip would be more reasonable. 

 

 

 

 

[nybumpkin]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:55 AM, KmomChicago said:

 

I think my vision is too far from American as well, though, in the other direction. I want something family oriented, with rugrats all over the place. I realize it won't be Caribbean cheap, but I want it a lot more affordable than American Cruise Line.  

 

DH and I just disembarked an ACL cruise, Puget Sound RT Seattle. Don't get me wrong - we love the Great Lakes. DH was born in Cleveland and his first lakes voyage was on the last trip of the SS South American on the Cleveland-Detroit leg. And as you can see from my signature (which is in dire need of updating), we're Carnival veterans. However, our kids (13, 8 and 4 when we first sailed, now 30, 25 and 21) would have gone stir-crazy on this type of cruise. In our early 60's, we were among the youngest aboard. We loved our trip, but it's just not a family-oriented sailing.