Summit Cruises Canceled

[jg51]

6 hours ago, SplashOfWater said:

Was there a 60-day period between Millennium's last St. Maarten cruise and the first Alaska cruise? Wouldn't the same rule apply?

 

4 hours ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

It would have been 14 days, not 60. I don't recall the exact amount of time but there was a pretty sizable gap between the last SXM sailing and the first Alaska sailing on Millennium.

.

Hello, "SplashOfWater" and "Jeremiah1212."

 

It appears that the sequence of events was this:

 

.... 1.  Millennium cruised from Sint Maarten on June 5, June 12, June 19, and June 26 -- with final disembarkation on July 3.

 

.... 2.  Summit took over at Sint Maarten, beginning on July 3.

 

.... 3.  Millennium departed (with no passengers) -- probably July 3 -- and headed southwest to transit the Panama Canal and then head north rapidly to the state of Washington.

 

.... 4.  Millennium arrived at Seattle -- probably July 22 (or after midnight July 23) -- and began its first Alaska cruise on July 23.

 

Therefore, roughly twenty days (not just fourteen) passed by -- as the empty Millie made its long and extremely expensive journey, (officially) with no guests aboard.

.

[Jim_Iain]

Sorry to  hear of all those cruises and dreams being cancelled. 

[helen haywood]

7 minutes ago, jg51 said:

 

.

Hello, "SplashOfWater" and "Jeremiah1212."

 

It appears that the sequence of events was this:

 

.... 1.  Millennium cruised from Sint Maarten on June 5, June 12, June 19, and June 26 -- with final disembarkation on July 3.

 

.... 2.  Summit took over at Sint Maarten, beginning on July 3.

 

.... 3.  Millennium departed (with no passengers) -- probably July 3 -- and headed southwest to transit the Panama Canal and then head north rapidly to the state of Washington.

 

.... 4.  Millennium arrived at Seattle -- probably July 22 (or after midnight July 23) -- and began its first Alaska cruise on July 23.

 

Therefore, roughly twenty days (not just fourteen) passed by -- as the empty Millie made its long and extremely expensive journey, (officially) with no guests aboard.

.

I thought part of the Panama Canal charge was x$ per passengers.  Not so?

[SplashOfWater]

8 minutes ago, jg51 said:

 

.

Hello, "SplashOfWater" and "Jeremiah1212."

 

It appears that the sequence of events was this:

 

.... 1.  Millennium cruised from Sint Maarten on June 5, June 12, June 19, and June 26 -- with final disembarkation on July 3.

 

.... 2.  Summit took over at Sint Maarten, beginning on July 3.

 

.... 3.  Millennium departed (with no passengers) -- probably July 3 -- and headed southwest to transit the Panama Canal and then head north rapidly to the state of Washington.

 

.... 4.  Millennium arrived at Seattle -- probably July 22 (or after midnight July 23) -- and began its first Alaska cruise on July 23.

 

Therefore, roughly twenty days (not just fourteen) passed by -- as the empty Millie made its long and extremely expensive journey, (officially) with no guests aboard.

.

Thank you jg51, that would explain it!

[canderson]

8 minutes ago, helen haywood said:

I thought part of the Panama Canal charge was x$ per passengers.  Not so?

No.  By 'tonnage', even for a rowboat.  There is a cute story about that.

[marieps]

3 hours ago, Oceangoer2 said:

I'm on the cruise following your TA from Southampton....I'm thinking that Nov. 12th will be cancelled.  Wonder how long it'll take for them to notify us if this indeed happens?

I wish us both the best.

[Turtles06]

20 minutes ago, helen haywood said:

I thought part of the Panama Canal charge was x$ per passengers.  Not so?

 

10 minutes ago, canderson said:

No.  By 'tonnage', even for a rowboat.  There is a cute story about that.

For passenger ships, since 2020, there has been a toll based on maximum passenger capacity. Previously, it was based on the number of passenger berths. For details, see:

 

 

[Nymich]

53 minutes ago, hcat said:

if cruise line knew this was coming..shame on them. 

Yes very good point.  I have a cruise on another line that is repositioning and it seems would fall under this 14 day deal.

[Host Anne]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Anne- Do you want the 800 number to the CDC?  Maybe they will explain it to you so you can report back here. 😎  Sorry for being a wise guy.  But so many things have made no sense to us mere mortals over the past 18 months or so when it comes to the CDC.  This is just another one. 

 Thanks for the offer, Rick.  I think I've done enough writing for today.   I may just have to go back to Africa after all!!!!

[Host Anne]

2 hours ago, canderson said:

Unclear to me whether whether it's directed at the industry or the State of Florida.  One can't rule out politics.

My guess is it's both!  I'm still struggling to understand the vindictiveness towards an industry has done everything that has been asked of them and then some but there is zero oversight in places like Las Vegas where casino hotels hold as many or more people than cruise ships.  And we do business in Las Vegas.  Sorry....just needed to rant.

[JamieLogical]

4 minutes ago, Host Anne said:

My guess is it's both!  I'm still struggling to understand the vindictiveness towards an industry has done everything that has been asked of them and then some but there is zero oversight in places like Las Vegas where casino hotels hold as many or more people than cruise ships.  And we do business in Las Vegas.  Sorry....just needed to rant.

 

The CDC has no purview over Las Vegas casinos and hotels....

[LGW59]

I totally understand and appreciate why the CDC did what they did over these past many months.  Now however, while I really do still appreciate their efforts to keep people safe and offer "guidance", it should be just that guidance and from there people can all make the decision that feels best for them and their family and/or personal circumstances.  The cruise lines, as it seems to me, have pulled out all the stops to ensure as safe a cruise as possible.  I can go to a Billy Joel concert at Fenway Park and be oh so close to the person next to me, w/o a mask.  I am not sailing again until May 2022, but if I were before then, I do think I would feel very comfortable on board.  

[canderson]

29 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

For passenger ships, since 2020, there has been a toll based on maximum passenger capacity. Previously, it was based on the number of passenger berths. For details, see:

Hard to believe McCullough got it wrong.  My point of reference, to be fair, is Panamax, not anything that has transpired since the new locks opened.  PC/UMS once applied to all ships, including passenger ships.  Was certainly true for our last crossing in '14.

 

https://www.pancanal.com/eng/op/tolls.html

 

 

[canderson]

Also, the rowboat story is real, not apocryphal.

[Host Anne]

This is my last two cents on this subject.  

 

I am not here to defend Celebrity and how long they waited to announce these cancellations.  I was on one and I'm not happy about it at all.  However, and I have nothing to back this up, I do believe that they were trying to make these cruises happen.  I got the same responses many of  you did about this cruise (we had a similar experience earlier this summer when our Reflection transatlantic was cancelled).  I really do not believe for one minute that Celebrity (or any other cruise line) wants to cancel cruises for any reason.  I was lucky enough to be on the Symphony of the Seas simulation cruise last week and I can tell you that every single crew member from the captain on down were extremely excited and ready to have passengers onboard.

 

As for the lack of communications from Celebrity.... well, let's start with the fact that all the cruise lines cut a lot of reservations and customer service staff over the last 18 months.  Just like the airlines and every other business has done.  There is no way they can be back to having sufficient staff to handle the amounts of emails and phone calls they get in a day when they are dealing with constant flux thrown at them by the CDC and governments aroud the globe.   I think people tend to forget what's happened over the past 18 months and how it has affected businesses.  They just don't start operating normally again, yet we think they should. It's going to be a slow return for full land-based staffing (my guess...no one has told me this).  

 

As someone who flies regularly and is seeing our flights constantly being cancelled or rescheduled, I know the hit they've taken when it comes to personnel because we have friends that work for airlines.  I imagine that cruise lines are similar or perhaps even worse right now (airlines came back long before cruising did).  I try to be considerate to customer service people who are working and dealing with unhappy customers day in and day out.  At least they are working when so many others are choosing not to!

 

So, place your frustrations carefully.  I really try to do that.  I really am unhappy that our August 28 cruise has been cancelled.  But we'll never have the complete story of what's gone on.  Just as we haven't had it for the past 18 months.  I choose to continue to support the cruise industry because I love cruising, the people we've met cruising and all the crew that works so hard on ships.  I understand, too, if you choose to not cruise in the future.  That's the great thing....we do have choices.  I'll let it go at that!

 

 

[markeb]

The requirements in the original NSO, incorporated into the Federal Registry in October of 2020 with comments from the industry were well known to Celebrity before they made a business decision to start cruises outside the requirements of the NSO.

 

From the Federal Registry on applicability:

 

(f) As a condition of obtaining or retaining a COVID-19 Conditional Sailing Certificate, cruise ship operators must comply with the requirements of this framework. These requirements apply to any cruise ship operating in U.S. waters and to cruise ships operating outside of U.S. waters if the cruise ship operator intends for the ship to return to operating in U.S. waters at any time while Order remains in effect.

 

The NSO guidance already posted in this thread on quarantine actions to enter service in US waters is also almost a year old.

 

Celebrity made a business decision to operate outside the Framework in St Maarten. That's fine. Then they made a really dumb business decision to sell cruises out of US waters during the time they would be subject to quarantine to come back into compliance. A time period well known to them before they moved the ships to St Maarten. That's on Celebrity. There's nothing new in the CDC position.

 

You can make an argument that Celebrity could ignore the NSO at this point in Florida, but they've also made a business decision to voluntary comply with what are now recommendations. But there's nothing new from the CDC or the federal government here; it's been in place since last October. And it would be an interesting legal argument whether the CDC can even change a requirement impacting the State of Florida that's under injunction and appeal...

 

I would like to believe these conversations occurred with the various players before moving the ships to St Maarten, but don't know. Selling cruises you know you can't operate is on Celebrity. And then cancelling them this close is even worse.

[PBTravelBug]

5 minutes ago, Host Anne said:

As for the lack of communications from Celebrity.... well, let's start with the fact that all the cruise lines cut a lot of reservations and customer service staff over the last 18 months.  Just like the airlines and every other business has done.  There is no way they can be back to having sufficient staff to handle the amounts of emails and phone calls they get in a day when they are dealing with constant flux thrown at them by the CDC and governments aroud the globe. 

 

 

I completely understand and appreciate your point however...I expected at least an auto response to my emails to know that the email had been received. I receive on a daily basis, if not multiple times per day, emails from Celebrity trying to sell me a cruise. They certainly know how to mail blast me - they can set up an auto respond to the emails that come in.

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, markeb said:

The requirements in the original NSO, incorporated into the Federal Registry in October of 2020 with comments from the industry were well known to Celebrity before they made a business decision to start cruises outside the requirements of the NSO.

 

From the Federal Registry on applicability:

 

(f) As a condition of obtaining or retaining a COVID-19 Conditional Sailing Certificate, cruise ship operators must comply with the requirements of this framework. These requirements apply to any cruise ship operating in U.S. waters and to cruise ships operating outside of U.S. waters if the cruise ship operator intends for the ship to return to operating in U.S. waters at any time while Order remains in effect.

 

The NSO guidance already posted in this thread on quarantine actions to enter service in US waters is also almost a year old.

 

Celebrity made a business decision to operate outside the Framework in St Maarten. That's fine. Then they made a really dumb business decision to sell cruises out of US waters during the time they would be subject to quarantine to come back into compliance. A time period well known to them before they moved the ships to St Maarten. That's on Celebrity. There's nothing new in the CDC position.

 

You can make an argument that Celebrity could ignore the NSO at this point in Florida, but they've also made a business decision to voluntary comply with what are now recommendations. But there's nothing new from the CDC or the federal government here; it's been in place since last October. And it would be an interesting legal argument whether the CDC can even change a requirement impacting the State of Florida that's under injunction and appeal...

 

I would like to believe these conversations occurred with the various players before moving the ships to St Maarten, but don't know. Selling cruises you know you can't operate is on Celebrity. And then cancelling them this close is even worse.

Mark, bottom line Celebrity skirted the CDC and CSO moving to cruise out of St. Maarten.  Now they pay the piper to some extent when coming back to sail out of the USA.

[markeb]

Just now, TeeRick said:

Mark, bottom line Celebrity skirted the CDC and CSO moving to cruise out of St. Maarten.  Now they pay the piper to some extent when coming back to sail out of the USA.

 

Exactly...

[Jeremiah1212]

I won't get into the "I can do xxxxx activity with no rules" argument because at this stage it's really a moot point and irrelevant to cruising (and it will get the thread closed). 

 

Celebrity very briefly touched on this on the TA call today. There was no real explanation given. Within the context of the CSO (which Celebrity is voluntarily following in Florida...so be careful who your frustrations are aimed at!) that 'new to the US' port ships would require a 14 day quarantine of crew before US operations.

I do think it's odd that Summit still shows as Green and fully approved for Restricted sailings, but there have been several instances of info appearing on the CDC website having already become knowledge to the cruise lines well before it's available to the public. 

[PBTravelBug]

2 minutes ago, markeb said:

Selling cruises you know you can't operate is on Celebrity. And then cancelling them this close is even worse.

Exactly! 

 

[Turtles06]

20 minutes ago, canderson said:

Hard to believe McCullough got it wrong.  My point of reference, to be fair, is Panamax, not anything that has transpired since the new locks opened.  PC/UMS once applied to all ships, including passenger ships.  Was certainly true for our last crossing in '14.

The Cruise Critic member to whose thread I linked (from the Panama Canal forum) is an expert on the Canal. 

[canderson]

14 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

The Cruise Critic member to whose thread I linked (from the Panama Canal forum) is an expert on the Canal. 

I think perhaps David McCullough might number among the 'experts' as well.  He 'wrote the book' on it .. literally (ref 'Path Between the Seas').  It  was from his lectures that I first learned about how tolls were levied.  Granted, that was before some rule changes that took place in 2007 (not 2020), making a bit of a mixed bag of it.  Per the Canal Authority link provided earlier:

 

In the case of passenger vessels, the ACP assessed tolls based on the maximum passenger capacity in accordance with the International Tonnage Certificate 69, or the vessel’s passenger ship safety certificate; vessels over 30,000 gross tons and whose PC/UMS ÷ maximum passenger capacity ratio is equal to or less than 33 were charged on a per berth basis. 

 

So it used to be tonnage, and now it is berths - maybe (not passenger count).  It requires calculations now.

 

Picking my next ship (Constellation) at 90.940GT, with a max pax berth count of 2170, we get

90940 / 2170 = 42, qualifying it for PC/UMS tonnage rates, not berth rates.

 

If it's changed again since 2007, I missed it.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by canderson

[Oceangoer2]

21 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

There was no real explanation given. Within the context of the CSO (which Celebrity is voluntarily following in Florida...so be careful who your frustrations are aimed at!) that 'new to the US' port ships would require a 14 day quarantine of crew before US operations.

Thank you for sharing! That puts our Nov. 12 cruise off the books so it would be great if someone from X would let us know before another week/month goes by.  BTW...I understand your logic and also Host Anne's.  Tough time for cruise lines and passengers alike.  We're all somewhat at 'sea' with decision making.

[Josie201]

2 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Thank you for sharing! That puts our Nov. 12 cruise off the books so it would be great if someone from X would let us know before another week/month goes by.  BTW...I understand your logic and also Host Anne's.  Tough time for cruise lines and passengers alike.  We're all somewhat at 'sea' with decision making.

Unless they sail over empty or the CSO expires as scheduled on Nov 1.