Will vaccines now be required?

[upwarduk]

d9704011

In post #77, I was attempting to indicate that there is an orderly queue for the vaccine. Even more so today, when I was sent a text message by our Drs surgery, indicating that they would contact me when it was my turn and not to ring the surgery. 
In other words, in the UK at least, we won’t be prioritised if we want to cruise, the vulnerable will be at the head of the queue.

[nomad098]

59 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

A couple comments.  The Pfizer vaccine was testing using a very large group.  Not small as you suggest.  There were several moderate reactions to vaccination reported by Pfizer.

The news reporting today noted the caution for those with allergies - but gave absolutely no details.  Certainly seems we need more info before passing judgment.

We all know there are negative reactions to drugs and vaccines.  The point should be the risk is much less than the reward.  The polio vaccine caused a few cases of polio, but reduced deaths from 16K a year to almost zero.  Does that mean the vaccine should not have been used?  Tough question as humanity in general was positively served by vaccination; while a few were indeed harmed.

 

After clean water, vaccination is the most effective public health intervention in the world for saving lives and promoting good health on the NHS website and I agree. However we don't spend nearly $10 trillion on ensuring everyone has clean water

 

"The Pfizer vaccine was testing using a very large group. Not small as you suggest." The study is huge compared to most but compared to the populations they took place in they were limited as was the scope of the trials which is normal, less than 0.0065% of the populations of where trials took place.

 

Exclusions from the trial info

• History of severe adverse reaction associated with a vaccine and/or severe allergic reaction (eg, anaphylaxis) to any component of the study intervention(s).

 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/record/NCT04368728

[maryann2]

31 minutes ago, yorky said:

I honestly don’t see this as an issue, having the flue vac they ask you if you have had allergic reactions in the past, it’s all pretty standard. I don’t believe for a minute that there will be large scale issues with any of the vaccines.

I agree.

It seems that those who had reactions were already needing epipens for severe allergies.

They should have been excluded at this point.

[maryann2]

Great news Canada has approved the Pfizer vaccine today.

[nocl]

3 hours ago, mickey89 said:

Back to the original question - is a vaccine a pre-requisite to cruise ?

 

That won't happen unless fully supported by Governments. In the UK the Government has said that they will NOT make vaccines mandatory.  I will definitely be inline when I am called and would encourage everyone else to do the same but would fall short of making it compulsory.

A business can put in a requirement, with or without a government vaccination requirement.

 

The Australian Government has not talked about a requirement yet Qantas has announced that  they have.

 

The cruise lines can and will require vaccinations if they feel that it will enable them to cruise safely and get their business back on track independently of what governments require.  A government requirement for cruise ships to dock may require the lines to require vaccinations.  The lack of a government requirement does not prevent them from doing one on their own.

[nocl]

18 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

After clean water, vaccination is the most effective public health intervention in the world for saving lives and promoting good health on the NHS website and I agree. However we don't spend nearly $10 trillion on ensuring everyone has clean water

 

"The Pfizer vaccine was testing using a very large group. Not small as you suggest." The study is huge compared to most but compared to the populations they took place in they were limited as was the scope of the trials which is normal, less than 0.0065% of the populations of where trials took place.

 

Exclusions from the trial info

• History of severe adverse reaction associated with a vaccine and/or severe allergic reaction (eg, anaphylaxis) to any component of the study intervention(s).

 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/record/NCT04368728

Pretty standard.

 

One of the reasons why anyone with such an allergy background should get the injection somewhere with medical support, not just a pharmacy.

[mickey89]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

A business can put in a requirement, with or without a government vaccination requirement.

 

The Australian Government has not talked about a requirement yet Qantas has announced that  they have.........

The question you need to ask is “Who is going to issue the proof of vaccination that can be trusted ? “

If the Government doesn’t then any piece of paper is worthless.........You will be able to buy one on EBay within days.

[C-Dragons]

4 hours ago, mickey89 said:

Without Government support there will be no trustworthy evidence of vaccination. There will be no certificate of immunisation digital or otherwise so where's the proof to show to the cruiseline.  Everyone knows its easy to obtain forgeries anyway, so it will be worthless and the cruiselines know this.... so is a non-starter.

Coming soon, there may be a digital App for that.      
 https://www.today.com/health/covid-vaccine-passport-apps-could-show-immunity-health-status-t203011

[Spif Barwunkel]

The many and varied entities involved in making the decisions indicates a lengthy process toward the return to a semblance of normality. The vaccine is a good thing and will serve purpose in the transition back to customary cruising. However, the structure to which we are accustomed is not an easy fix. Nor should it be.

 

Based on test cruises being successful followed by uneventful post-test shorter cruises on less than full ships, I see all of 2021 having full protocol requirements. Depending on how 2021 and covid19 get along, social distancing may ease in early 2022 but masks and ships tours will continue into the summer. If all remains good, private tours and personal sightseeing worldwide could be a go in the fall of ’22 and the winter of ’23 with masks still being required. From there it’s a data- based warm tummy feeling that will end all restrictions.

 

This conjecture may seem extreme to many, sort of a gloom and doom opinion. I see it as a logical progression toward safe travels, providing once again the enjoyment to which we are accustomed. For all of us, it requires patience and adapting to the process.

 

Our future cruising mettle will certainly be tested in the months, maybe years to come.

[TeaBag]

2 hours ago, maryann2 said:

Great news Canada has approved the Pfizer vaccine today.

Yes, when and where do we get in line?  We are in the seniors with compromised immune systems category, so we are hoping to have it by Spring.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, mickey89 said:

The question you need to ask is “Who is going to issue the proof of vaccination that can be trusted ? “

If the Government doesn’t then any piece of paper is worthless.........You will be able to buy one on EBay within days.

Not really.  If you get a signed card from the location that gives you the vaccination then one might forge a certificate, but if something happens as a result of presenting that forgery (for example if someone presents it to board ship and later they develop COVID) then the source of the vaccination documented on the card can be checked and if shown to be invalid would make the holder that presented the forgery liable for damages from their actions.

 

As with most things in the US many abuses are not prevented by criminal laws,, as much as the potential for civil damages.

 

All any cruise line and transportation needs to do is to publish in their contract that any party presenting a forgery will be held responsible for any damages resulting from its use.

 

If forgeries become wide spread then would not be surprised if the appropriate laws would be strengthened.

 

For that matter it would probably already considered to be since the laws against forgery are pretty wide ranging.

Edited December 9, 2020 by nocl

[Fouremco]

3 hours ago, mickey89 said:

The question you need to ask is “Who is going to issue the proof of vaccination that can be trusted ? “

If the Government doesn’t then any piece of paper is worthless.........You will be able to buy one on EBay within days.

In addition to the comments made by @nocl, with which I fully agree, let me add that most government documents are no harder to forge than those produced by other entities, with the possible exception of bank notes and some other financial instruments. 

[Oceangoer2]

3 hours ago, mickey89 said:

The question you need to ask is “Who is going to issue the proof of vaccination that can be trusted ? “

If the Government doesn’t then any piece of paper is worthless.........You will be able to buy one on EBay within days.

The Canadian gov't will issue a certificate of vaccination.

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, Oceangoer2 said:

The Canadian gov't will issue a certificate of vaccination.

Ontario has indicated that it intends to issue certificates or cards, but I'm not aware of any similar plan by the federal government.

[Arizona Wildcat]

16 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Ontario has indicated that it intends to issue certificates or cards, but I'm not aware of any similar plan by the federal government.

There are several companies organizing apps that will partner with airlines, government -state and Federal - and other companies that might require proof.

Of course one could fake the certification, but hardly worth it for a free vaccination. 

[SeaHunt]

If you haven't read through it yet, here's Pfizer's FDA Briefing Document to be presented at the Commitee meeting tomorrow (12/10)

 

https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

[mom says]

19 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

There are several companies organizing apps that will partner with airlines, government -state and Federal - and other companies that might require proof.

Of course one could fake the certification, but hardly worth it for a free vaccination. 

I believe you are referring to the CommonPass that has been in limited, but expanding use, for several months, as well as the one being developed by IATA. They would allow one to upload verification of COVID test results, medical waivers, and immunizations to the app. Quite a few individual airlines, as well as airline alliances have expressed  strong interest in these. If these become more mainstream, I see no reason for the cruise lines not to use them as well.

[Fouremco]

22 minutes ago, mom says said:

I believe you are referring to the CommonPass that has been in limited, but expanding use, for several months, as well as the one being developed by IATA. They would allow one to upload verification of COVID test results, medical waivers, and immunizations to the app. Quite a few individual airlines, as well as airline alliances have expressed  strong interest in these. If these become more mainstream, I see no reason for the cruise lines not to use them as well.

CANImmunize is a Canadian app that appears to have a lot of potential too:

 

https://www.bruyere.org/en/Blog/preparing-for-a-COVID-19-vaccine-with-CANImmunize?ly=4

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/scientists-study-app-as-possible-way-to-track-covid-19-vaccine-safety-1.5192954

[middlehaitch]

BC has been recommending the CANImmunize app on its web site as an alternate to keeping a written record for all immunizations from birth.

 

The problem I have with an app is the software not carrying into the future, or the smart phone (or whatever) being lost/stolen.

 

As an adjunct to a chip enabled health card, or as in BC, ones drivers license/provincial ID card which carries your health card info, or even a free standing immunization card, it would be a good tool. 

 

I live in Canada but travel on a UK passport so need an ESTA to enter the USA. Initially I had to carry a paper ESTA record, for the past few years my ESTA number has been digitally attached to my passport via the web application form. 

This could eventually be a way to travel with a vaccination record. 

 

There are so many alternate ways to issue an individual's immunization/vaccination record nowadays it could bog any country down trying to decide on the most safe and expedient method and then get it internationally recognised.

 

It will be interesting to see how it is handled. I just hope there is a countrywide data base being developed somewhere 😎

 

Cheers, h.

 

[upwarduk]

12 hours ago, mickey89 said:

The question you need to ask is “Who is going to issue the proof of vaccination that can be trusted ? “

If the Government doesn’t then any piece of paper is worthless.........You will be able to buy one on EBay within days.

The UK are giving a credit card sized proof of vaccination which is dated.

[nomad098]

56 minutes ago, upwarduk said:

The UK are giving a credit card sized proof of vaccination which is dated.

 

It's not that simple.

 

The problem is they are only really appointment cards which show what treatment you have had on what date. Not proof you are covid free. According to Pfizer 5% will still be covid positive 

 

Will pubs, cinemas, airlines, foreign Governments, cruiselines, and other organisation accept what is essentially a doctor's appointment card as legitimate proof you have been vaccinated and covid free or will they want more and all the logistics involved, who carries the burden of cost to implement, management and will be ultimately legally responsible.

 

Unfortunately by the time enough people are vaccinated to make a covid-19 immunity card relevant the mortality and infection rate will be so low Governments will not see the need for them in their own country and there will no longer be a national health emergency.

 

At the moment there are so many different ways in different countries to show you have had your jab or have a covid negative test result it would be difficult for any company to be sure and it is quite possible that countries or organisations will all want different proofs.

 

The only reason I can legitimately see a need for a standardised immunity card for travel and proof is if booster jabs will be needed,  but we will not know this for over a year. A jab every year and an immunity card or one jab that lasts a lifetime would you need an immunity card then?

 

I have no problem with immunity cards but implementation for international travel could be difficult and require interGovernmental agreements, these all take time. There are also many medical questions that need answering before an immunity card could become reality.

 

International Certificate of Vaccination and Prophylaxis card may be the solution but getting to see a doctor to convert your appointment card to one of these may be difficult and legally problematical.

 

And that still does not answer the question of medical exemption and what proof is needed then. 

 

[mickey89]

6 hours ago, upwarduk said:

The UK are giving a credit card sized proof of vaccination which is dated.

The card is not personalised, it is basically an appointment card for your second dose with a vaccine batch number incase of an adverse reaction.  

[Fouremco]

8 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

Will pubs, cinemas, airlines, foreign Governments, cruiselines, and other organisation accept what is essentially a doctor's appointment card as legitimate proof you have been vaccinated and covid free or will they want more and all the logistics involved, who carries the burden of cost to implement, management and will be ultimately legally responsible.

You are conflating two very different issues. It doesn't matter who issues a document attesting to the fact that you have been vaccinated, or in what format the document is issued, no such proof of vaccination should ever be interpreted as stating that the holder is covid free.

[nomad098]

35 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

You are conflating two very different issues. It doesn't matter who issues a document attesting to the fact that you have been vaccinated, or in what format the document is issued, no such proof of vaccination should ever be interpreted as stating that the holder is covid free.

 

Your quite right I failed to make it clear being vaccinated does not make you covid free only a test can do that. Covid free should have been "will want more" and testing should have gone in with logistics.

 

Thinking faster than I can type

[Fouremco]

2 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

Your quite right I failed to make it clear being vaccinated does not make you covid free only a test can do that. Covid free should have been "will want more" and testing should have gone in with logistics.

 

Thinking faster than I can type

LOL. That's far better than some here who type faster than they can think!